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Post by killitgrillit on Dec 25, 2010 14:17:18 GMT -5
What's yall's opinion? ? I was thinking of getting a full form swinglock die and trying it but can't make up my mind, Thx for the info.
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Post by Al on Dec 25, 2010 14:28:43 GMT -5
I don't have a Swinglock die, but I don't see me going back to sabots any time soon.
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Post by tar12 on Dec 25, 2010 15:05:11 GMT -5
The accuracy has been so good shooting with sabots I do not know if I will fool sabotless or not.
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Post by killitgrillit on Dec 25, 2010 15:33:46 GMT -5
The accuracy has been so good shooting with sabots I do not know if I will fool sabotless or not. That's what I'am trying to figure out.
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Post by tar12 on Dec 25, 2010 15:42:13 GMT -5
Check this thread out.The pics are of the first groups out of my .45.everything is under a 1 in.Usually much less. Do you already have your barrel? I had 2 in cut off of my 28 in barrel with a full form die in mind...but...it flat shoots as is!BTW, those groups were shot off of the back of my trucks tailgate which has been beat to pieces and is not the most ideal shooting platform.I can not wait to get the real range and wring this .45 out for real! dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=smokeless&action=display&thread=7042
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Post by Dave W on Dec 25, 2010 16:09:04 GMT -5
I don't have a Swinglock die, but I don't see me going back to sabots any time soon. +1 ;D Is sabotless leaps and bounds more accurate-no. Is it more accurate- in my gun-yes with either of the Parker BE's.
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Post by sw on Dec 25, 2010 16:10:15 GMT -5
For deer hunting for me -no. Are you referencing a 45 cal? I expect you are. In 50 cal, I'd say no also. There are advantages to sabotless shooting but there are disadvantages to shooting 45 cal bullets also vs 40 cal bullets. I think the advantage of the 40 cal bullet outweighs the disadvantage of the associated sabot. The recoil and nuisance of resizing, and some spring back, and poorer trajectory make sabotless in the 45 not my choice. If you want the best of both worlds, the 40 can deliver it. I made 4 different gun changes in 4 years here where I live due to rule changes in what's legal(all had to do with pistols). I will not make another change!!! 40 it is, period! The saboted 195B and 200SST are very fast and accurate . Harley may have a different slant on this. I do plan to work with my 0.450" and 0.4535 PacNor barrels more after season -sabotless. Might change my mind on 45s , but not on the 40.
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Post by tar12 on Dec 25, 2010 16:13:50 GMT -5
I don't have a Swinglock die, but I don't see me going back to sabots any time soon. +1 ;D Is sabotless leaps and bounds more accurate-no. Is it more accurate- in my gun-yes with either of the Parker BE's. Is the Parker the only thing you shoot sabotless? Just curious...
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Post by Dave W on Dec 25, 2010 16:14:17 GMT -5
For deer hunting for me -no. Are you referencing a 45 cal? I expect you are. In 50 cal, I'd say no also. There are advantages to sabotless shooting but there are disadvantages to shooting 45 cal bullets also vs 40 cal bullets. I think the advantage of the 40 cal bullet outweighs the disadvantage of the associated sabot. The recoil and nuisance of resizing, and some spring back, and poorer trajectory make sabotless in the 45 not my choice. If you want the best of both worlds, the 40 can deliver it. I made 4 different gun changes in 4 years here where I live due to rule changes in what's legal(all had to do with pistols). I will not make another change!!! 40 it is, period! The saboted 195B and 200SST are very fast and accurate . Harley may have a different slant on this. I do plan to work with my 0.450" and 0.4535 PacNor barrels more after season -sabotless. Might change my mind on 45s , but not on the 40. What kind of accuracy is expected out of a 40 cal bullet at 400+yds?
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Post by Dave W on Dec 25, 2010 16:16:34 GMT -5
+1 ;D Is sabotless leaps and bounds more accurate-no. Is it more accurate- in my gun-yes with either of the Parker BE's. Is the Parker the only thing you shoot sabotless? Just curious... No- but they shoot the best as far as consistency.
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Post by dave d. on Dec 25, 2010 16:38:41 GMT -5
:)my personal opinion is I like sabots better. There easier and I can shoot a lighter weight bullet with less recoil. Shooting whitetail I do not see any advantage.
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Post by Harley on Dec 25, 2010 17:23:26 GMT -5
My experience, so far:
.45 caliber:
Sabots - relatively easy to develop a reliable load, one that you can repeat consistently. Very fast muzzle velocities. Totally useless, worthless, etc (because of the sabot, itself) in extreme heat, such as the southern states in early ML season.
Sabotless - relatively more difficult to set up because of required proper fit of bullet to bore. (I do think the Swing-Lock die, either smooth or full-form, will make this a non-issue.) Sabotless pretty much eliminates "flyers" and other unwanted events (again, because there is no sabot). Not affected by changes in ambient temperature to the extent that sabots are liable. Very consistent POI from shot to shot (capable of MOA - at least with the 275 Parker BE - to extreme shooting distances).
I have two more series of tests before I totally endorse the Swing-Lock die:
1. Increase the sized bullet diameter in increments of .00014" from the sized bullets used in my first test of the die. I want to know if the larger diameter will yield (a) higher MV's - while maintaining small group sizes and (b) a more difficult push to seat the bullet. Note that a difference of .00014" is not measurable with my digital caliper, but in addition to the two questions asked, increasing the bullet diameter will answer also the question of sized bullet "recovery", since, by deliberately increasing the bullet diameter from the first (successful) setting, I am simulating bullet recovery.
2. My present tests are run in ambient temperatures in the 40's*; I'd like to test that same setup at 90* next summer.
Harley
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Post by killitgrillit on Dec 25, 2010 19:19:04 GMT -5
Harley, are you getting any springback on the bullets run thru the swinglock that you know of?
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Post by Harley on Dec 25, 2010 20:07:10 GMT -5
No springback that I can measure to four places (.xxxx").
Harley
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Post by chuck41 on Dec 25, 2010 20:13:17 GMT -5
The question is easy for me. With a .40 cal gun sabotless is the only game in town. But it is a winning game!
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Post by jims on Dec 25, 2010 20:43:07 GMT -5
I have a .40 sabotless and my .50 with sabots so perhaps not fair comparisons. Overall I think it is just easier shooting with sabots. Everything has to "fit" just so for sabotless, the sabot permits alot more leeway IMO. That said I have more experience with sabots and am more in the infancy stage with sabotless so sw and others can give more reliable experiences.
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Post by sw on Dec 25, 2010 21:29:23 GMT -5
What kind of accuracy is expected out of a 40 cal bullet at 400+yds?[/quote] Honestly I don't know. I do get flatter trajectories with the 200SST over the 195B. I can get sub-MOA at 300 on a good day. I really haven't found any significant accuracy advantage of the 40 over the 45 when all is right with the 45. All is always all right with the 40.
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Post by sw on Dec 25, 2010 21:32:31 GMT -5
The question is easy for me. With a .40 cal gun sabotless is the only game in town. But it is a winning game! I've found the 40 to be bullet proof. It always shoots well regardless. Knurling is so easy. A few times between the files up to appx 0.402". Used to do 0.4015" but am getting to like the larger with the 195Bs. 40 is just simple and always works great.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2010 22:36:20 GMT -5
no doubt that plastic is easier for most of us and with these Pacnors I never dreamed I could shoot the kind of groups Im shooting now. depending on where in this Great nation we live kind of dictates what cal we can go with. I had a conversation many years back with Doc White at a show about 50 vs 45 vs 40, he told me then 40 was the ticket, explaining trajectory/ vel/ recoil but he didnt convince enough people to make the 40 go. no doubt in my mind that 45 has many advantages over 50 and I know many will argue that point but it just makes sense and above all ; it works for me and well:
I have another savage that i have aquired and plan on another pacnor and yes it will be a 45 But I will get the barrel drop and have Tom make an adjustable die for it for one reason. so I can shoot 45 bullets naked and be legal in Illinois. If not for that I wouldnt go to the extra expense,trouble, or recoil of 45 bullets. the way my other gun shoots I just dont see how it could be measureably more accurate but who knows it might shoot like Harleys!
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Post by slipperhead on Dec 26, 2010 6:45:14 GMT -5
How critical is the resulting knurled diameter? I'm assuming that with too large a diameter, too much pressure can build and too little diameter, you might get some blow-by? SW, are you measuring each one?
How difficult is it to start and seat a properly knurled .40 caliber bullet? Is there any barrel lube used?
I REALLY like the idea of shooting .357 bullets in a .40 barrel but there doesn't seem to be sabots available.
thanks,
Garland
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Post by jims on Dec 26, 2010 8:05:25 GMT -5
Chuck41 and sw: If you keep talking that way you are going to talk me out of also getting a .45 barrel and just stay with the .40 I already have.
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Post by pposey on Dec 26, 2010 9:55:28 GMT -5
I got my .45 pacnor to go sabotless, found sabotless was a pain in the rear for me as far as sizing and getting a good fit, saboted shot so well I forgot all about sabotless
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Post by chuck41 on Dec 26, 2010 10:08:18 GMT -5
How critical is the resulting knurled diameter? I'm assuming that with too large a diameter, too much pressure can build and too little diameter, you might get some blow-by? SW, are you measuring each one? How difficult is it to start and seat a properly knurled .40 caliber bullet? Is there any barrel lube used? I REALLY like the idea of shooting .357 bullets in a .40 barrel but there doesn't seem to be sabots available. thanks, Garland I seldom bother to measure mine. Just roll them between a couple files and go. I have shot some without knurling and accuracy seems to be OK, but I suspect that if you left it in for a while during hunting season it might not stay in place well. You can't knurl them too much. Rifling makes a tight fit as soon as you start to push them home. SW uses the all copper 195 Barnes and I suspect that knurling is more critical with them than with the XTPs and other jacketed bullets I use. Not hard to seat, but I do use a starter. Easier than a tight fitted sabotted bullet. As you push it down the barrel it gets easier as it slides and the knurled finish fits to the barrel. No lube needed. Me too!!! If you hear of someone with 40/357 sabots please shout. P.S. Someone suggested using 410 wads so I tried. They don't work worth a flip! Anyone want most of a bag of 410 wads?
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Post by dougedwards on Dec 26, 2010 10:17:03 GMT -5
I have an unusally sized rifle barrel. It is a Pac Nor .451 (groove diameter) pistol barrel actually at 26" long. I have to resize every bullet that I can shoot through this barrel and I have experienced some spring back using the full form die and 250 grain Hornady SSTs. I have succumbed to sizing the bullets to fit very loosely within the barrel and they shoot fine.
However, after all is said and done I feel that the end result of such activity does not warrant the additional effort that it takes to shoot sabotless. Now I wish I could find a sabot to fit this odd sized barrel so I could shoot the 40 caliber bullets. The blue Harvester CR comes close but is very tight going down and renders about a 2" group at 100 yards using the 195 Barnes and 56 gr of R-7. Although probably accurate enough for the type of hunting that I do, that load is not satisfying to shoot at the target range.
In short, I bought this barrel in anticipation of shooting sabotless. At this point I don't find that there is much to get excited about.
Doug
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Post by bigmoose on Dec 26, 2010 10:36:27 GMT -5
I use Barnes 290gr flat based TMZ, all cooper so no spring back, easy to resize, with 53 grs of H4198 and a wonder wad, light recoil and super accurate at 100 yards. Its a better shooter than any sporting weight rifle I have ever owned.
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Post by dougedwards on Dec 26, 2010 10:59:39 GMT -5
I use Barnes 290gr flat based TMZ, all cooper so no spring back, easy to resize, with 53 grs of H4198 and a wonder wad, light recoil and super accurate at 100 yards. Its a better shooter than any sporting weight rifle I have ever owned. Bigmoose......you are saying that the 290gr Barnes provides a light recoil? It was because of the harsh recoil that I quit using that bullet in the 50 cal but I was using 10 grains more powder and a 12 grain sabot. Are you getting 1" or less groupings at 100 yards on average? Just wondering. Never considered this bullet because I am rather recoil sensitive at the range. Doug
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Post by pposey on Dec 26, 2010 11:06:36 GMT -5
get a lead sled my man a lead sled,,,, I'm a habitual flincher at the shooting range but have no problems hunting, lead sled is grrrrrrrrrrrrreat!!!!!!!!!! "said like Tony the tiger"
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Post by bigmoose on Dec 26, 2010 11:10:14 GMT -5
Doug,
The only one hole groups I have shot was with that load. It the load I use for hitting dime sized coins. I dont know the long range accuracy, since the longer game shot I have taking is 128yds, I dont have a range that extents past 100yds Shootings offhand with sticks, its a soft recoiling load, from the bench, you could use a lead sled or a sissy bag to kill recoil, I have gotten to the point that I limit myself to 10 or 15 shots with big boomers, with my .50 300, 350 and 400gr Barnes bullets make me show the white flag after that many shots Have a fine New Year, Marty
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Post by dougedwards on Dec 26, 2010 11:35:49 GMT -5
Thanks Marty......prayers for the happiest 2011 to you and your family.
Doug
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Post by spaniel on Dec 26, 2010 11:38:58 GMT -5
What kind of accuracy is expected out of a 40 cal bullet at 400+yds?[/quote] I have seen no loss in accuracy to 400 yards with them. I hope to find time to go out to 500 and perhaps 600 later this winter. In other words, if the gun was sub-MOA at 100 it was still sub-MOA at 400 when I did my part.
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