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Post by deadeye on Dec 27, 2010 12:53:04 GMT -5
to me-yes,for most probably not, i see 3 good reasons for going sabotless,#1-heat,#2-eliminate the plastic flier,#3- to reasonably go 400 plus. i have only shot the 275be sabotless & will probably remain that way. i have had great success out to 488yds on targets & have only lost 1 shot(moa+ ) to the tune of 12'' from center @450,had to figure the wind got me. will resume field testing this winter- wind/conditions allowing. i love calculated parlor shots!
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Post by smokeless77 on Dec 27, 2010 14:34:59 GMT -5
deadeye, Have you tried the 325 gr B/E from parker? I was thinking about giving them a try, Little pricey but might be worth it. I agree with the plastic flier, It seems like that will always happen no matter what you do. I find with the 195 gr barnes and the b/h sabot you can shoot a 5 shot 1/2" group @ 100 yds, and leave that same load in the rifle for a few days then shoot it and it seems to always shoot 3-4" high and all the next shots will be back where they belong. Cant figure it.
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Post by Richard on Dec 27, 2010 15:47:52 GMT -5
I have shot a bunch of both saboted and sabot less and I'm still on the fence I have got dyn-o-mite saboted loads that I could easily depend on to give sub one inch five shot 100 yard groups and some sabot less loads that will teter at just over 1" for five shots. Either is capable of killing deer. I would probably lean towards saboted loads at this point. By best results with sabot less have been to under size (.448") knurl up and then resize with a .450 or .4495" die. It seems that on the heavier bullets (250 to 300 gr.) I am experiencing spring back which bites me in the butt at the range Hopefully going smaller at home and allowing for spring back at the range will solve the problem? I admit I have not played with the expensive all copper bullets........This may be the answer Richard
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Post by smokeless77 on Dec 27, 2010 16:19:42 GMT -5
Richard, The die I made out of 1-1/2 round stock works perfectly for the 275 parkers and SSTs With the little bit of spring back you get is accounted for when making the die and fits the barrel nice and snug. If I run a 275 gr barnes xpb or any all copper bullet through the same die there is no spring back which the bullet is too lose in the bore. you can knurl it up and they do shoot nice but too much knurl on copper bullets, and your usually taking the gun apart to get the bullet out. I will make another die for copper bullets and the problem solved.
John
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Post by deadeye on Dec 27, 2010 17:13:25 GMT -5
smokeless777-have not tried 325be yet ,but have in my grip's 50,so far have resized 3 & knurled up to approx spec's successfully. right now in the fact gathering stage on an approx starting load for it. the 325be has a .028 jacket//275be-.015,it has been suggested to me maybe a duplex to get obturated & i agree. on the ballistic side it should pan out superior if i can get approx 2350fps accurately. i agree the 195bx/200sst/saboted is a great performer but lacks according to the charts past approx 400 & that is where i like to play. my 275be load is definetly going to be hard to beat all way around & i dont know if im willing to spend time & $$ to beat it however i know someone will or is doing it w/out a badbull or something else. richard-i resize the 275be to .448 & have had no springback to this date including some ive done a year ago but i do run those twice threw for whatever thats worth
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Post by Dave W on Dec 27, 2010 17:22:17 GMT -5
Richard, The die I made out of 1-1/2 round stock works perfectly for the 275 parkers and SSTs With the little bit of spring back you get is accounted for when making the die and fits the barrel nice and snug. If I run a 275 gr barnes xpb or any all copper bullet through the same die there is no spring back which the bullet is too lose in the bore. you can knurl it up and they do shoot nice but too much knurl on copper bullets, and your usually taking the gun apart to get the bullet out. I will make another die for copper bullets and the problem solved. John EXACTLY! Each bullet sizes differently. There is no fixed diameter die that is going to work for all bullets. My die is made to size 250 SST's to my barrel with no knurling, perfect fit. XTP's come out smaller, regardless of weight. 300SST's are very tight! All coppers are loose and no matter how much I knurl, they are still too loose for my liking. My advice, figure out which bullet you want to shoot and get a die that sizes that bullet to a usable diameter or buy a Swinglock adjustable die if you want to experiment with different bullets. JMO Bad Bull, Richards pimps the Parkers for a reason, they are the best.
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Post by smokeless77 on Dec 27, 2010 17:36:09 GMT -5
Dave W, I think the parkers having a thinner copper jacket compared to the rest seem to have a little more leeway, softer, when pushing them down the bore which makes them fit so nice. The sst's I put through the same die twice and fit is perfect. I think due to the heavier jacket.
John
John
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Post by Dave W on Dec 27, 2010 18:04:58 GMT -5
Never had to size a Parker so I'll take your word on it John.
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Post by smokepole50 on Dec 27, 2010 19:09:03 GMT -5
Richard Franklin sizes his 275gr Parkers for the 45 cal. custom rifles he builds. He told me the Parker worked so well because of the jacket thickness and the soft lead inside. It expands well to seal the rifling and he guaranties MOA to 500 yards with his rifles so I think he might have a good argument. He shoots his rifle all summer here in VA ground hog hunting.
Smokepole50
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Post by rexxer on Dec 27, 2010 20:20:47 GMT -5
Having shot both ways I'm on the fence like Richard. I have had very good accuracy out of both with sabot-less being a much larger learning curve. Most all .45 Pacnors will shoot good with a light blue Harvester sabot and a 195-200 grain bullet with very little trial and error. Shooting sabotless may require multiple dies,measuring instruments,files,and probably more money. While sabot-less can have a positive effect in hot weather it may have a neg. effect in cold weather. I like my bullets toward the snug side and when its real cold its almost impossible to load if barrel is cold. I can also shoot my .45 sabot ed dirty for many shots with good accuracy but sabot-less must be swabbed every shot.
Illinois laws require bigger dia.bullet so some states a sabot ed .45 is not an option.
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Post by smokeless77 on Dec 27, 2010 21:32:52 GMT -5
(sabot-less must be swabbed every shot.)
That is not true, In my rifle anyway. I can shoot all day without swabbing, and never had trouble loading in colder weather. Its a matter of fact I just cleaned my gun yesterday,Shot and hunted all season without touching it.
John
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Post by rexxer on Dec 27, 2010 22:39:21 GMT -5
[quote author=smokeless77 board=smokeless thread=7062 That is not true, In my rifle anyway. I can shoot all day without swabbing, and never had trouble loading in colder weather.
John
I would think you are one of the few that can shoot all day sabotless without swabbing.
I'm sure you must be sizing your bullets to a much looser fit or hunting in less temperature differences not to notice the tighter fit in cold conditions. I can even tell the difference saboted which should be more forgiving.
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Post by smokeless77 on Dec 28, 2010 0:00:40 GMT -5
rexxer , I have a rougher time getting the 195 barnes down the bore with the b/h sabots when its cold, and it has been in the twenty's for the last month here in NY. The only time you might have any struggle Is when you shoot and don't reload it. the next time you load it may be a little rough but not unbearable.That is if you don't clean it though.
John
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Post by deadeye on Dec 28, 2010 1:22:30 GMT -5
i can attest to all day shooting dirty sabotless,if i do swab or 4 drops,accuracy is dismal
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Post by Chris Champion on Dec 28, 2010 1:25:04 GMT -5
I got my .45 pacnor to go sabotless, found sabotless was a pain in the rear for me as far as sizing and getting a good fit, saboted shot so well I forgot all about sabotless Same for me. In fact my 45 pacnor barrel was originally spec'd out to be a sabotless shooter. Rick Bibby ordered a batch of barrels from Pacnor that were on the high side of their bore tollerance and when he posted that this batch of barrels was available and should allow sabotless shooting with little to no resizing I was one of the first if not the first to jump on one. I was dead set on shooting the Barnes 250g TEZ sabotless. I tried like heck to get those to shoot but knurling and swabbing between shots was not my cup of tea. 195g Barnes at 2600 to 2800 fps in a Harvester smooth blue sabot out of a 45 Pacnor is golden in my book. State regs will dictate which way you go. If you have a stock 50 and have the urge to go with a Pacnor then go with a 45 if your state allows you to shoot 40 cal bullets in a 45 cal barrel. If your state requires 50 cal rifles or 45 cal min bullet dia like Illinois does, then just get a 50 Pacnor and shoot the BO. It doesn't get any simplier than that.
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Post by Dave W on Dec 28, 2010 18:17:33 GMT -5
[quote author=smokeless77 board=smokeless thread=7062 That is not true, In my rifle anyway. I can shoot all day without swabbing, and never had trouble loading in colder weather. John I would think you are one of the few that can shoot all day sabotless without swabbing. I'm sure you must be sizing your bullets to a much looser fit or hunting in less temperature differences not to notice the tighter fit in cold conditions. I can even tell the difference saboted which should be more forgiving. Have you ever tried shooting dirty Rex? I recently did some testing for vent life, over 50 shots spread out over a week or two. No stuck bullets and seating resistance was comparable for all shots. I believe swabbing creates more copper fouling and seating inconsistencies.
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Post by deadeye on Dec 28, 2010 19:57:37 GMT -5
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Post by rexxer on Dec 29, 2010 9:28:26 GMT -5
No horse is beaten my way! ; ;D When I first tried sabotless I shot her dirty. I was ok for aprox. 3 shots and then she started to load tough and then I had a stuck bullet. I have tried since with similar results.I did have good accuracy shooting dirty. I believe Harley and a few others had similar results. I would much rather shoot dirty than having to clean. Shooting saboted I need not clean. Now I have to wonder why some can and some can't. I do use a small amount of grease sabotless.Maybe different powders do better. What kinds of powder do you guys use? One other possibilty could be I didn't use a finish resizing die back then and fouling was falsely accused! What do you guys think?
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Post by smokeless77 on Dec 29, 2010 9:46:01 GMT -5
Rexxer, Maybe the grease was the problem, with each shot the fouling would cling to the grease in the bore making it stubborn to seat the bullet. Just a guess. As for powder I use n-110, 4759, 2015, 322, H-4198. The N-110, 4759 are the starter powders, I shoot mostly Duplex loads.
John
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Post by Dave W on Dec 29, 2010 10:57:47 GMT -5
No horse is beaten my way! ; ;D When I first tried sabotless I shot her dirty. I was ok for aprox. 3 shots and then she started to load tough and then I had a stuck bullet. I have tried since with similar results.I did have good accuracy shooting dirty. I believe Harley and a few others had similar results. I would much rather shoot dirty than having to clean. Shooting saboted I need not clean. Now I have to wonder why some can and some can't. I do use a small amount of grease sabotless.Maybe different powders do better. What kinds of powder do you guys use? One other possibilty could be I didn't use a finish resizing die back then and fouling was falsely accused! What do you guys think? Primarily H4198 straight and N110/H322 duplexes. Have shot N110-10X-Rel 7-N130-H322 as singles though. All my bullets are wiped clean after sizing, no grease or lubes on the bullet, I can see that might be a problem with the XPB if that is what you are still shooting. Possible the Barnes copper might foul worse? Never tried a finish die.
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Post by deadeye on Dec 29, 2010 11:43:22 GMT -5
h4198, i was able to back off the knurling a little after the bore was fouled to what i call a light- medium fit,while seating chatterering became minimal- still w/great results,prior to that yes i had to drive a few down w/the hammer until i found my sweet spot. i have had only misfire's on a clean bore,have to overknurl 1 bullet until fouled to prevent the mis which was not h4198's fault,it was too loose clean. i do find it interesting some get better results clean after each shot & if that works more power to anyone. i will also state i think some think this sabotless is hard,it is not,much just like finding proper fitting sabots & powder combo
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Post by rexxer on Dec 29, 2010 17:14:20 GMT -5
Dave- I still shoot the copper Barnes 275 xpb sabotless but did not degrease after sizing.
Maybe you guys are on to something with the grease.
I mostly shoot a duplex 4759 as my booster,2015 as my main.
My loading force is pretty stout,maybe 60-70 pounds. Any ideas what force you guys are pushing?Thanks
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Post by Dave W on Dec 29, 2010 17:36:40 GMT -5
My loading force is pretty stout,maybe 60-70 pounds. Any ideas what force you guys are pushing?Thanks I will try to check to be sure but if memory serves, the 275BE I think was approx. 60-70lbs to get started and tapered to around 35lbs to push the rest of the way home. I'll try to remember to check the 250FTX next time I shoot.
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Post by jeremylong on Dec 29, 2010 22:37:01 GMT -5
deadeye, Have you tried the 325 gr B/E from parker? I was thinking about giving them a try, Little pricey but might be worth it. I agree with the plastic flier, It seems like that will always happen no matter what you do. I find with the 195 gr barnes and the b/h sabot you can shoot a 5 shot 1/2" group @ 100 yds, and leave that same load in the rifle for a few days then shoot it and it seems to always shoot 3-4" high and all the next shots will be back where they belong. Cant figure it. Your the first person I seen post on this. I experience the same thing. It doesnt happen in the same day but leave it loaded for a couple days and it shoots a little high, just like clockwork. I am thinking the plastic slowly creeps more into the grooves over time or something.
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Post by smokeless77 on Dec 29, 2010 23:04:10 GMT -5
jeremylong, I thought it was just me, but now knowing you are going through the same thing, If I get a chance I'll try to experiment with the 195s. Could it be the fouling over a couple days gets a little crusty in the bore and gives the sabot a real good seal causing it to shoot high. I don't know.
John
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Post by Dave W on Dec 29, 2010 23:12:23 GMT -5
Are you guys knurling the 195's?
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Post by smokeless77 on Dec 29, 2010 23:18:23 GMT -5
No, I have not, The b/h are very tight in my bore now, but I could give it a try.
John
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Post by Dave W on Dec 29, 2010 23:23:21 GMT -5
No, I have not, The b/h are very tight in my bore now, but I could give it a try. John Someone posted about the sabot loosening up over time with knurled bullets, that being the reason I asked. Since you are not,- apparently not the cause or solution to the problem.
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Post by jeremylong on Dec 29, 2010 23:29:02 GMT -5
Nope - no knurling here either. Mine is tight too.
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Post by jeremylong on Dec 29, 2010 23:33:12 GMT -5
John I was thinking maybe of that too. Not sure. Also, I dont think I ever seen quite 4" but 2-3. And never the same day, it take a couple days to get there. But load it one weekend and shoot it the next and it will go a little high for sure. Next shot, perfect. It may be a combo too of plastic creep into the grooves / imperfections of the groove and a little fouling just keeps it more resistant to get going.
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