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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2015 19:24:09 GMT -5
By no means do I consider myself an expert on gun powders and the pressures they create in various caliber SMLs.
I know powders/pressures in various calibers get mentioned every once in a while on the board.
But I think that it needs to be cleared up a little.
If you use a certain powder (ie IMR4198, IMR3031) in a .45 caliber muzzle loader, that same amount of 4198 powder will create much more pressure in a smaller caliber muzzle loader. (.375, .416)
I'll use several powders here in a Quickloads calculation in 3 different calibers. .458, .416, .375
All calculations are done with a 28" barrel, and 1.8% compression
For some powders and loads, Quickloads calculates higher pressures and velocities than what we see in smokeless muzzleloaders.
But with some loads the pressures and velocities are very similar to what Quickloads calculates.
We'll use 50,000 psi as the upper limits of what is safe in our smokeless muzzle loaders (yes, I know this is debatable. But for the sake of this thread, bear with me.)
70 GRAINS OF IMR4198 AND A 300 GRAIN BULLET
.458...54,000 psi...2847 fps
.416...74,800 psi...2828 fps
.375...101,100 psi...2805 fps
95 GRAINS OF IMR3031 AND A 300 GRAIN BULLET
.458...48,100 psi...3022 fps
.416...69,900 psi...3145 fps
.375...101,200 psi...3122 fps
120 GRAINS OF IMR4350 AND A 300 GRAIN BULLET
.458...43,900 psi...2942 fps
.416...61,200 psi...3159 fps
.375...89,500 psi...3232 fps
130 GRAINS OF IMR4831 AND A 300 GRAIN BULLET
.458...43,300 psi...3082 fps
.416...62,500 psi...3277 fps
.375...93,400 psi...3298 fps
OK, lets try it backwards once...
120 GRAINS OF RETUMBO AND A 300 GRAIN BULLET
.375...51,400 psi...2949 fps
.416...31,500 psi...2656 fps
.458...22,500 psi...2313 fps
Here's another way someone can get in trouble...
You read on the board that someone uses 130 grains of IMR4831 in their load in their .45 SML, so you think you'll try using 130 grains of IMR4198 in your gun with a 300 grain bullet
130 GRAINS OF IMR4831 WITH A 300 GRAIN BULLET IN A .458
.458...43,300 psi...3082 fps
130 GRAINS OF IMR4198 WITH A 300 GRAIN BULLET IN A .458
.458...92,400 psi...3580 fps
I'll let the experts debate as to which point above 50,000 psi your gun/barrel will start to fail
I'll add more to this post when I think of other ideas/applications...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2015 19:46:52 GMT -5
Good post Earnhardt, there has definitely been more confusion lately with the ever changing and evolving sport.
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Post by ET on Jan 6, 2015 19:49:06 GMT -5
Good posting as there are many newcomers that need to be aware or reminded of a possible danger.
That too should remind us how important it is to specify the caliber for the load we are sharing in our posts instead of assuming it is understood.
I would also like to see the PT’s separated into groups for different calibers as these progress forward.
Ed
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Post by Richard on Jan 6, 2015 19:49:13 GMT -5
A very good explanation Josh. Thanks!
Richard
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Post by 7mmfreak on Jan 6, 2015 19:53:57 GMT -5
Good post. I sometimes read things on here that make me flinch. I'm glad you addressed this.
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Post by rambler on Jan 6, 2015 19:54:26 GMT -5
Good info. Stay warm up there lol
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Post by Jon on Jan 6, 2015 20:10:47 GMT -5
Very good info. Keep up the good work that is what will hopefully keep others safe?
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Post by deadeye on Jan 6, 2015 20:15:49 GMT -5
great post.... another way to look at pressures etc
50 bmg** bullet- 750gn amax 225.0 gns powder(50bmg)----approx. pressure=52k
22-250** bullet- 55gn nbt 38.0 gns powder(h380)-----approx. pressure=62k
think plenty enuff before you stuff. when in doubt..ask about
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2015 20:25:36 GMT -5
Great thread! Thanks for posting this Josh.
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Post by airborneike on Jan 6, 2015 20:32:14 GMT -5
Josh,Earnhardt
Great "eye opening" post...thanks!
Mike
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jan 6, 2015 20:40:11 GMT -5
Good post and eye opening things to think about
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Post by jeff on Jan 6, 2015 20:52:11 GMT -5
130 GRAINS OF IMR4198 WITH A 300 GRAIN BULLET IN A .458
.458...92,400 psi...3580 fps
Kill on one end, cripple on the other! Wow~
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2015 20:55:37 GMT -5
130 GRAINS OF IMR4198 WITH A 300 GRAIN BULLET IN A .458 .458...92,400 psi...3580 fps Kill on one end, cripple on the other! Wow~ Hard to distiguish which end would be which! |
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Post by Typical171 on Jan 6, 2015 20:58:50 GMT -5
Great Post. Another thing that I feel is overlooked some is bullet fit ( drop down barrel loose vs. hammer down barrel tight) this would have to be considered if your load is already nearing a max pressure.
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Post by lwh723 on Jan 6, 2015 21:00:02 GMT -5
Great post!
Pressure = Force x Area
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Post by fishhawk on Jan 6, 2015 21:37:48 GMT -5
Well done Josh, this covers what we spoke about the other nite quite well. We've been noticing some posted loads that make us pucker. The same goes for using the fast boosters from the 45's and 50's in the smaller calibers.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2015 21:40:51 GMT -5
Great info....right on line with a design I've been contemplating....
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Post by bigm00se on Jan 6, 2015 21:46:52 GMT -5
So....looks like 3031 is a good choice as far as recoil and safe pressures?
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Post by markb317 on Jan 6, 2015 23:41:55 GMT -5
Thanks for posting this Earnhardt.
This is a great post, with all the talk about different powders and calibers going on now it would be easy for someone to get confused and try the wrong load with the bullet they are using.
Thats the great thing with this board the people look out for others. I know when I started with my .416 that I was able to get some good starting points for load work up.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2015 23:55:44 GMT -5
So....looks like 3031 is a good choice as far as recoil and safe pressures? Which cal. ..? 300gns at 3000ft/sec gonna kick whatever gun u got..... |
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Post by cowhunter on Jan 7, 2015 12:42:16 GMT -5
Excellent post. It puts into numbers some general ideas I already had, and makes me think about some loads I use. I've shot many loads of 70 grain 4198 with 300 or 310 gr bullets in a .45. That load goes over 50,000. I may rethink it. Also, I'm thinking that anyone playing with unknown loads should at least have a basis for estimating the pressure, like the testing done here or Quickload. It is time to look at buying Quickload. Is there any better way or source to buy Quickload?
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Post by Jon on Jan 7, 2015 13:11:51 GMT -5
Interested in info on Quickload also.
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Post by rangeball on Jan 7, 2015 13:16:20 GMT -5
I've shot many loads of 70 grain 4198 with 300 or 310 gr bullets in a .45. That load goes over 50,000. I may rethink it. It apparently does in QL which as I understand it is specifically for cartridge loads but unless I'm remembering wrong I don't believe it has in TGs trace data? |
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Post by rambler on Jan 7, 2015 14:39:52 GMT -5
Excellent post. It puts into numbers some general ideas I already had, and makes me think about some loads I use. I've shot many loads of 70 grain 4198 with 300 or 310 gr bullets in a .45. That load goes over 50,000. I may rethink it. Also, I'm thinking that anyone playing with unknown loads should at least have a basis for estimating the pressure, like the testing done here or Quickload. It is time to look at buying Quickload. Is there any better way or source to buy Quickload? Other than pirating a bootlegged copy one could always just buy the software outright:
quickload.co.uk/
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Post by hankinsrfls on Jan 7, 2015 15:27:56 GMT -5
Cowhunter.. In my opinion 70 grains of IMR 4198 is perfectly safe in bolt guns with a 1.200 shank barreled at least 3 to 4 inches.. At 54,000 psi you are way under Sammy pressures for the magnum center fire cartridges set at 65,000 psi.
NOW HEAR THIS..... WARNING...
In my opinion I would not shoot 70 grains of IMR4198 in brake open guns......
Jeff.
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Post by rambler on Jan 7, 2015 15:37:27 GMT -5
Cowhunter.. In my opinion 70 grains of IMR 4198 is perfectly safe in bolt guns with a 1.200 shank barreled at least 3 to 4 inches.. At 54,000 psi you are way under Sammy pressures for the magnum center fire cartridges set at 65,000 psi. NOW HEAR THIS..... WARNING... In my opinion I would not shoot 70 grains of IMR4198 in brake open guns...... Jeff. Would you qualify that warning to break open with manufacturer barrel?? |
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Post by hankinsrfls on Jan 7, 2015 15:44:28 GMT -5
I'm just saying I wouldn't shoot it and be comfortable. However.,, TC makes a barrel for the 300 mag so it's up to the owner of the rifle..
Jeff
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Post by rambler on Jan 7, 2015 15:48:16 GMT -5
I'm just saying I wouldn't shoot it and be comfortable. However.,, TC makes a barrel for the 300 mag so it's up to the owner of the rifle.. Jeff Good advice!! |
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Post by rangeball on Jan 7, 2015 15:59:06 GMT -5
I've shot many loads of 70 grain 4198 with 300 or 310 gr bullets in a .45. That load goes over 50,000. I may rethink it. It apparently does in QL which as I understand it is specifically for cartridge loads but unless I'm remembering wrong I don't believe it has in TGs trace data? Just went through TGs trace data, and unless I missed it, nothing showing 50k psi with 70gr of H4198 in a 45 with 3-310gr bullets. The 310 APB FF with this charge was just over 43k for what it's worth. |
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Post by gar on Jan 7, 2015 16:40:31 GMT -5
Unless I miss the concept completely, what I see is the rise in pressure from a bullet being forced into the rifling with a centerfire as opposed to full forming a bullet to fit the rifling beforehand or the more gradual obturation of a land rider bullet in an SML makes for the difference in the pressures seen in quickloads. I do think QL is a great place to start.
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