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Post by nick50471 on Feb 21, 2019 17:33:41 GMT -5
All: I've used Quickload for years in standard rifle cartridge reloading. I would highly suggest when estimating loads, pick STRAIGHT WALL CARTRIDGES only as your base for SML estimates: i.e 50 beowulf, 45/70 etc. Should give you a much better estimate than bottle neck cartridges (program treats these with different factors). Please be careful; QL can be quite wrong when you start using it as not intended, but is a great tool for starting low and safely and working up on a load. This thread is quite old and much of the QL talk has been resolved. Some of us that use QL for SML simulation understand how it works. Your statement about ONLY USING STRAIGHT WALL cartridges is not valid. Our rifles produce far different pressures and velocities with advanced ignition. It's far more important to choose a cartridge that is 85%-95% of your powder capacity. Also if you have a powder chamber this cartridge selection rule of yours gets tossed out the window. As always if anyone needs help with QL or wants me to run a simulation just PM, text, Message or raven....
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Post by sw on Dec 16, 2019 9:45:27 GMT -5
Concerning H4198, 4759 and VV110 for 200g saboted bullets in 45 cal 209 ignition MLers and years of testing I’ve found the following. 4198 even at 58-62g has a moderate degree of temp sensitivity. 4759 has less if used from 35-39g with HLBS/wad. An excellent higher speed load (2,750 - 26” barrel), is 10/50 VV110/H4198 with only light to moderate temp sensitivity. The #1 load, in my findings , is 37g VV110,200SST/195B, HLBS, wool/vege wad, CCIm, 2510/2530’/sec with extreme accuracy. In cool wx/barrel, under 50 degrees, omit the wad for even tighter groups. This is in a 26” PN45 22. With a 20” H&R HR 2350’/sec. The advantage of this loading of VV110 is virtually no temp sensitivity fro 0-80+ degrees. The only two loads I use are the 10/50 VV110/H4198 or the 37g VV110. Almost exclusively the 37g load. The groups I’m interested in are 200 yard groups fired with 1 shot each from 20, 50 and 80 degrees. Impossible almost and impractical at best. However, the 37g VV110 would easily win. Next would be the 10/50 VV110/H4198. Pressure is our friend when temp sensitivity is considered. Normally we have too little. I want in the low 40s (42-43K).
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Post by sw on Apr 25, 2020 10:37:26 GMT -5
I’ve entered a new phase in my usage of smokeless MLers. I have a pair of custom 27”, MB, 40 and 45, with 1.2” for 6”, HIS ignition. Using 0.030” in 40 and 0.035” in 45 (may go to 0.030”). Also a 10ML2/40 PN with 209.
278g in custom 40, 303g in 45 and 228g in 40 PN. Desired velocities(all are moderate loads at most) custom 40 - 2900, 45 - 2800, 40PN - 2800. If 253 Hammers will work well , they’ll be the ones for the 40s (since use is for hunting).
I’ll use QL to find powders that will get 45-47K in the customs and 40K in the 40PN.
So, using QL, I’ll try different powders to get the pressure and velocity desired. The pressure is chosen as a balance between safe pressure/bushing wear and for decreased temperature sensitivity.
Operating at an optimal pressure helps decrease temp sensitivity and keeps further impact points much more consistent thru out the temp spreads during hunting season. Here in Arkansas, it could be in the 70s or rarely in the 80s during the mid Oct MLing season and in the teens or less in the Dec-Jan season. In 2002-2003, Savage shooter, RB and others, including self, found out that the 10/60 110/120 2700+ 250XTP load(stock 10ML2) went from 2700 @ 70-80 F to ~1900 @ 0 F. Immediately the 10/60 gave way to 14/61 110/H322 which gave way to 21/51 110/H322. Why these changes? Ans - to get to a operating pressure to the upper 30s, and ideally lower 40s.
I’ll give up ‘/sec for consistency any time. That’s consistency of temp variation, not the momentary consistency that’s sought in Bench rest shooting. Hunting and benchrest are two separate disciplines.
My opinion, it does not get better than 44-45g VV110/250 TMZ, WW in a stock 10ML2(~2500’/sec). Or, 37g VV110 / 200SST/195BARNES with possibly the 225/228g AM (sized to 0.400) (2530’/sec). These loads are w/i 90% of the fastest commonly used duplex loads, kick less, are as or more accurate, are extremely temp insensitive, etc.
Summary, pick your desired velocity, then pick a powder and work w/i it’s operating limits - for us with smokeless MLers, this means generally it’s lower operating design pressures, w/i the 40sK psi. With the robust barrel systems being used in most custom smokeless MLers, pressures in upper 40s and lower 50s should be quite safe and even more temp stable. After all, max pressure of 223, best I remember, is 63K, 6 PPC is often shot at 65+++, etc. Many of our pressure thoughts cam from Savage’s concerns of preventing a catastrophic failure with a double load. Remember, Savage tested to 154K I best remember while subsequent tests were only able to get 123K and yet no failures. Modern custom MLers are much more robust!
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Post by sideshow on May 23, 2021 9:57:12 GMT -5
Thank you SW for your valuable insights and info . I agree the bench crowd doesnt always do whats best for a hunter with variable or difficult conditions . I live in Michigan and this aspect of development is crucial on many levels . This is too often completely overlooked . Its actually a ethical situation honestly in the reality of it for a hunter . Paper vs a living creature . Far too often the animal is taken lightly . Your thought to cover both aspects of this is refreshing to say the least !!! Thank you
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Post by sideshow on Jul 22, 2022 12:13:58 GMT -5
I just discovered a tool for figureing load pressures thats much like Quickloads . Its called Gordons Reloading Tool and its FREE !!! You just sign up then use it . It seems to be quite highly respected in the shooting community . Its even DOWNLOADABLE !!! Gordons Reloading Tool operates a bit differently than Quickloads so SOME things ate Not a direct corrolation to each of the programs !!! Its worth a look guys
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Post by muzzledan on Aug 2, 2023 10:20:15 GMT -5
Or, 37g VV110 / 200SST/195BARNES with possibly the 225/228g AM (sized to 0.400) (2530’/sec). Hey SW, Are you saying shooting only the 37g of VVN110 with the 200 gr SST? So no duplex on that? I am shooting the N110/N120 10/60 duplex right now with good results, 1 inch @ 100. Short black sabot with a mag subbase as well. ML Season here starts in Oct so temps don't get to cold for me--so I haven't been to concerned yet with the 2700 to 1900 situation. 38-42g of N110 on 250 SST for me are like 4-5 inch groups @ 100 so wondering if moving to a 200 SST will be easier on the sabot for my gun. Dan
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Post by mrbuck on Aug 4, 2023 13:06:26 GMT -5
I think the 37.0grs of N110 with the 200gr SST / 195gr Barnes is a load for the .45 cal. barrels . I have shot that 37gr load in a MLII with a .45 Pacnor barrel with some success.... .75" at 100 yards . I have also had success with the 44gr N110 load with 250gr bullets in a stock MLII with a .50 cal barrel . Chris
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Post by sw on Aug 6, 2023 13:46:20 GMT -5
I think the 37.0grs of N110 with the 200gr SST / 195gr Barnes is a load for the .45 cal. barrels . I have shot that 37gr load in a MLII with a .45 Pacnor barrel with some success.... .75" at 100 yards . I have also had success with the 44gr N110 load with 250gr bullets in a stock MLII with a .50 cal barrel . Chris Yes.
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