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Savage Muzzleloading Message Board
"The Internet's First Message Board For the Savage Muzzleloader" Since December, 4 2000 This forum is dedicated exclusively for the discussion of the Savage Muzzleloader. This message board is not affiliated with Savage Arms. Please note that any loads used that are not in the Savage owner's manual are used at the owner's own risk, this forum's owner will not be held liable for any damage to equipment from using said loads. DO NOT USE SMOKELESS POWDER IN ANY MUZZLELOADER OTHER THAN THE SAVAGE
I've used Quickload for years in standard rifle cartridge reloading. I would highly suggest when estimating loads, pick STRAIGHT WALL CARTRIDGES only as your base for SML estimates:
i.e 50 beowulf, 45/70 etc. Should give you a much better estimate than bottle neck cartridges (program treats these with different factors). Please be careful; QL can be quite wrong when you start using it as not intended, but is a great tool for starting low and safely and working up on a load.
This thread is quite old and much of the QL talk has been resolved. Some of us that use QL for SML simulation understand how it works.
Your statement about ONLY USING STRAIGHT WALL cartridges is not valid. Our rifles produce far different pressures and velocities with advanced ignition. It's far more important to choose a cartridge that is 85%-95% of your powder capacity. Also if you have a powder chamber this cartridge selection rule of yours gets tossed out the window. As always if anyone needs help with QL or wants me to run a simulation just PM, text, Message or raven....
Concerning H4198, 4759 and VV110 for 200g saboted bullets in 45 cal 209 ignition MLers and years of testing I’ve found the following. 4198 even at 58-62g has a moderate degree of temp sensitivity. 4759 has less if used from 35-39g with HLBS/wad. An excellent higher speed load (2,750 - 26” barrel), is 10/50 VV110/H4198 with only light to moderate temp sensitivity. The #1 load, in my findings , is 37g VV110,200SST/195B, HLBS, wool/vege wad, CCIm, 2510/2530’/sec with extreme accuracy. In cool wx/barrel, under 50 degrees, omit the wad for even tighter groups. This is in a 26” PN45 22. With a 20” H&R HR 2350’/sec. The advantage of this loading of VV110 is virtually no temp sensitivity fro 0-80+ degrees. The only two loads I use are the 10/50 VV110/H4198 or the 37g VV110. Almost exclusively the 37g load. The groups I’m interested in are 200 yard groups fired with 1 shot each from 20, 50 and 80 degrees. Impossible almost and impractical at best. However, the 37g VV110 would easily win. Next would be the 10/50 VV110/H4198. Pressure is our friend when temp sensitivity is considered. Normally we have too little. I want in the low 40s (42-43K).
I’ve entered a new phase in my usage of smokeless MLers. I have a pair of custom 27”, MB, 40 and 45, with 1.2” for 6”, HIS ignition. Using 0.030” in 40 and 0.035” in 45 (may go to 0.030”). Also a 10ML2/40 PN with 209.
278g in custom 40, 303g in 45 and 228g in 40 PN. Desired velocities(all are moderate loads at most) custom 40 - 2900, 45 - 2800, 40PN - 2800. If 253 Hammers will work well , they’ll be the ones for the 40s (since use is for hunting).
I’ll use QL to find powders that will get 45-47K in the customs and 40K in the 40PN.
So, using QL, I’ll try different powders to get the pressure and velocity desired. The pressure is chosen as a balance between safe pressure/bushing wear and for decreased temperature sensitivity.
Operating at an optimal pressure helps decrease temp sensitivity and keeps further impact points much more consistent thru out the temp spreads during hunting season. Here in Arkansas, it could be in the 70s or rarely in the 80s during the mid Oct MLing season and in the teens or less in the Dec-Jan season. In 2002-2003, Savage shooter, RB and others, including self, found out that the 10/60 110/120 2700+ 250XTP load(stock 10ML2) went from 2700 @ 70-80 F to ~1900 @ 0 F. Immediately the 10/60 gave way to 14/61 110/H322 which gave way to 21/51 110/H322. Why these changes? Ans - to get to a operating pressure to the upper 30s, and ideally lower 40s.
I’ll give up ‘/sec for consistency any time. That’s consistency of temp variation, not the momentary consistency that’s sought in Bench rest shooting. Hunting and benchrest are two separate disciplines.
My opinion, it does not get better than 44-45g VV110/250 TMZ, WW in a stock 10ML2(~2500’/sec). Or, 37g VV110 / 200SST/195BARNES with possibly the 225/228g AM (sized to 0.400) (2530’/sec). These loads are w/i 90% of the fastest commonly used duplex loads, kick less, are as or more accurate, are extremely temp insensitive, etc.
Summary, pick your desired velocity, then pick a powder and work w/i it’s operating limits - for us with smokeless MLers, this means generally it’s lower operating design pressures, w/i the 40sK psi. With the robust barrel systems being used in most custom smokeless MLers, pressures in upper 40s and lower 50s should be quite safe and even more temp stable. After all, max pressure of 223, best I remember, is 63K, 6 PPC is often shot at 65+++, etc. Many of our pressure thoughts cam from Savage’s concerns of preventing a catastrophic failure with a double load. Remember, Savage tested to 154K I best remember while subsequent tests were only able to get 123K and yet no failures. Modern custom MLers are much more robust!