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Savage Muzzleloading Message Board
"The Internet's First Message Board For the Savage Muzzleloader" Since December, 4 2000 This forum is dedicated exclusively for the discussion of the Savage Muzzleloader. This message board is not affiliated with Savage Arms. Please note that any loads used that are not in the Savage owner's manual are used at the owner's own risk, this forum's owner will not be held liable for any damage to equipment from using said loads. DO NOT USE SMOKELESS POWDER IN ANY MUZZLELOADER OTHER THAN THE SAVAGE
Did anyone ask them about our application of the program..?
Guess I didn't express myself well enough:
Thank you for your response,
The reason I ask for this info is because a large group of us use these smokeless powders in redesigned muzzleloaders using heavy contoured rifle barrels that can handle the pressures of these powders.
A typical load would be 70 grains of IMR4198 with a 275 grain bullet fired off with a breech plug using a 209 shot shell primer or a large magnum rifle primer.
Would you happen to know if you have any software or data that could simulate these loads??
How are others on this board using QuickLOAD to extrapolate information with regards to smokeless MZ'ing?
From what I've seen in the past it has been used as an estimator more than anything, to check potential powders and loads to get an idea what might be viable, then real world tested by TG with his PT equipment.
Post by savagebrother on Feb 16, 2015 10:56:59 GMT -5
Wow nice thread, you guys are seeing exactly what we saw 15 years ago. You have to compensate for a lack of brass grip and bullet swaging into the rifling. When we first used 4198 it was with 40-50 grains range and ignition and accuracy sucked. We finally realized it was because of under pressure conditions. So in a single powder load add more powder to achieve optimum pressure or how a lot of guys did it add a little faster powder to boost pressures quicker to acheive the same thing oh and now you know where hornady came up with superformance powder and ammo from. I still remember the days of .50 cal. Using 108 grains of IMR 4831 and 600 grain wheel weight bullet giving 2200 FPS. Kicked like an SOB and was very accurate at 100 yds. Quit shooting that load cause I couldn't find any tyrannosaurus Rex's to shoot with it!!! Great thread and info Earnhardt SB
IIRC, all IMR and N110 are single base so their total energy per grain should be very close.
With that being said, 4759 is much bulkier so the volume being filled by the gasses is greater which theoretically should result in a lower pressure.
IMO, 4759 probably yields slightly lower pressure and velocity, but not by a whole lot.
Just happened to shoot today 10/58 N110/H4198 and 10/58 4759/H4198... As Edge suggested about the slightly lower fps from 4759 I found that to be true.. With my 26" Brux barrel I got an average of 2780fps with 10/58 4759/H4198 250 ftx. With 10/58 N110/H4198 I averaged 2839fps...six shots on each...I'm also getting 25fps increase velocity with veggie wads over wool wads...accuracy is comparible between the two loads...for what it's worth Zen
so after reading most of the pressure stats would 70-72 gr h4198 200g sst blue sabot in a 45 still be considered comfortably safe?? it sounds to me that it would be the upper limits of the safe operating range
i havent blown a sabot yet...but i usually dont shoot my muzzy till its 60° or less. ive gone up to 74 gr h4198 l( but it was 5° below then). my most accurate charge is 62gr. but after reading most of this post i question the safety of approaching the 70 gr mark again.
Post by Mid_Tn_Plowboy on Nov 11, 2015 23:53:09 GMT -5
I wouldn't feel comfortable pulling the trigger on that load (jmo). 60gr of H4198 is plenty for a saboted 200gr 40 cal in my book. Jason
Savage 10 Ml II
SS Flutted 1/22" twist #7 Pac-Nor .807" @ 28"
SSS .240" SS recoil lug
Fishhawk plug with .030 bushing
Ken Farrell RTS full slot 20 MOA scope base
Leopold PRW rings
HS Precision L.R.P.V. stock
Leopold VXIII 3.5X10X40 Stoney Point knobs
while i havent shot thru a chrono the general consensus from this board is that 62g 4198 with 200g sst is equals about 2600fps. the previous trace data says it takes 70g to get slightly over 2600. which is correct...or could it be that charges of that powder/bullet combo doesnt gain much afterthe lesser load??
Okay - for us guys shooting .45 caliber conversions in break guns with loads much lighter than most I see here using bolt action Remington's: I'm shooting a 20" TC Katahdin 45-70 barrel using a standard Savage plug and ventliner installed by Slufoot. I don't ever see myself shooting more than 55 grains of H4198 for deer hunting or any other application. In fact, my accuracy load is 50 grains of H4198 with a Hornady .40 caliber 200 grain XTP and a smooth blue sabot. My chronograph says that's flying at about 2,100 fps. For my purposes that seems like plenty. In Indiana where I hunt - almost every shot in the deer woods is less than 100 yards and rarely, if ever beyond that. I wonder how much less pressure that's generating than some of the hotter loads that most are shooting who post here? And at these lower pressures, can you ever wear out that plug?
28f) PN45 H4198 62gr 195bx HSB Temp effect 12/29/12 A
There are relatively few times when use of H4198 as a single can be tricky. IMO, with light loads in cold temps may be one of them. Shown above is a load using H4198 as a single a bit heavier than what you are using, but which stays below 32kpsi peak pressure. It should give you some idea as to velocity consistency over a temperature range maybe a bit narrower than what you see. As to whether that load is safe in your platform is best answered by the barrel maker or the builder of your rig.
When it is warm (>50deg) and conditions are consistent, IMO, light loads with H4198 with light bullets may yield reasonable consistency and accuracy, working ok for both paper punching and hunting. But, I’ll bet that during late fall-winter hunting season in the mid-west, temperature variations might be enough to make a difference, because there may be as much as a 2-2.5fps/degree difference in muzzle velocity with such a light load. For harvesting a deer inside 100yds, it probably wouldn’t cause enough change in POI to matter. Significantly beyond that range?? - it might. Even more important (at least to me) is the possibility of misfire or wide ES velocity swings of a light load of H4198 in cold weather. Though this may not be a high probability event, nearly every year, a post or two reporting such a failure appears on this board. Over the past 7 years, I have personally experienced 2 such misfires while hunting. (temps 10-20deg) In both cases, H4198 was being used as a single in front of a Win209 primer in H4198 loads substantially heavier than what you are using. One (the last one) was easily the largest buck I have targeted (never saw him again!).
Given RBinAR’s rule that temperature sensitivity of any sml load increases dramatically when peak pressures fall below 500psi/gr, at this time, anytime I use H4198 as a single in a hunting load with 195-200gr bullets and a Savage plug (.030in ventliner), it is used in a duplex with a load I believe was originally developed by Savage Shooter(4759/H4198 10/50gr). It traces close to 32kpsi peak pressure which yields peak pressures of ~526psi/gr. (And I only use Fed209 primers) Some, using H4198 as a single with 195gr sabotted bullets have never experienced problems. So YMMV. And there are some other powder options which others may chime in to mention which also may be more temp insensitive than straight H4198? Another possible option, not yet tested, might be, when using H4198 with a sabotted 195gr bullet, to use a larger (>.030in.) breech plug flame orifice?? TG
Wow - now that is some interesting data! You are right in saying that here in northern Indiana, temps can vary greatly when hunting season comes along. It can be in the middle 30's or 2 degrees below zero during the late muzzleloader season. I'm just getting started with smokeless muzzleloading and need to try shooting with some booster charges, but I was hoping to keep it simple in the woods with a single charge. This chart gives me some things to think about. Thanks for posting - this is a great site - and smokeless muzzleloading is proving to be a lot of fun. I also like the way you guys have tested this all out and your concern for safety first. All the best this fall in the deer woods to one and all...
N110 has ignited for me in any temp .I can shoot a light or heavy load. But my velocities are not the same as others but I don't care because most of my shots are under 150 yards. I also hunt and live I Indiana .
45 rempac 26" barrel 200gsst lite blues 62g h4198 (currently) i only shoot when temps are below 55º. i have shot up to 74g...but it was well below 0 without blowing sabots. having said that factoring favorable shooting temps where would the unsafe pressures begin in heavier loads.
If you want to just shoot 2100fps with a 200gr SST or Barnes 195, N110 should easily do that with light loads and be way more reliable than light loads of 4198.
Around 30gr of N110 should get you in that fps range. IIRC 35gr of N110 and a sabotted 200gr SST was around 2400fps+ but it might be a little hard on sabots.
I shot 35 grs. of N110 with a HLB and a 200 sst in a new .45 1/20 Brux recently and it wouldn't hit a 3' x 3' tagrget due to blown sabots. Shot the same 35 grs. of N110 sabotless with the 200 FTX and it shot very well.
I've used Quickload for years in standard rifle cartridge reloading. I would highly suggest when estimating loads, pick STRAIGHT WALL CARTRIDGES only as your base for SML estimates:
i.e 50 beowulf, 45/70 etc. Should give you a much better estimate than bottle neck cartridges (program treats these with different factors). Please be careful; QL can be quite wrong when you start using it as not intended, but is a great tool for starting low and safely and working up on a load.