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Post by jeremylong on Mar 16, 2011 16:25:25 GMT -5
My only thought is the 300 grain Barnes Original may be a good candidate for the full form. I would really like to see that tried.
I have the problem that I did not get the drop too though with my pac. Heck the concept didnt exist when I got the barrel. I did however get the drop on a newer build that I am doing for a buddy but he dont want to fool with sabotless. I almost want to gamble and get a full form made from that drop for my gun but dang $$$. Heck of a gamble. I also agree with your thought on the ultimate. Also though I sure wish we could get a 250grain 40 cal BE as well to go with the 325
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Post by jims on Mar 16, 2011 18:50:40 GMT -5
Jeremy: Just trade barrels with your friend and you both will be good to go.
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Post by jeremylong on Mar 16, 2011 19:06:58 GMT -5
I would love too but his pac is screwed into a rem action and mine into a sav. Dont think he would be up for it :-)
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Post by deadeye on Mar 16, 2011 20:37:49 GMT -5
325be bullet update-just got my new order in & they are no longer 325be's,instead 327be's,after talking to bob parker they tightened up the tip's a tish making for a slight bc improvement. i took 5 at random from the old & new stock for avg's
new 327be-avg wgt-326.80 bc=.435 sd=.231 diameter-avg= .4495 length--1.3356
old 325be-avg wgt-323.94 bc=.430 sd=.230 diameter-avg= .4490 length--1.3640
note-new ones are much more shiny & bases appear to be improved,more consistent looking.
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Post by rkrobson on Mar 17, 2011 10:27:54 GMT -5
I trust they're comparable, as anytime you change a component, results can change as well. I haven't opened the two boxes I received last week, but I will when I get home. Thanks for the headsup deadyeye, Ray
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Post by TGinPA on Mar 21, 2011 15:48:17 GMT -5
Pressure Trace: PN45 N120 66gr 325 be/ftx At Deadeye’s request, I tested this load: Gage and Module Manufacturer = RSI USB model Trigger Sensitivity = 2, Strain Gage Voltage =4.9 Gage Factor =2.1 PSI Correction Factor: 0 Barrel Temp = 64-65degrees F. measured at the sensor (IR). Rifle Stand: Caldwell Lead Sled Altitude: 450 ft Chronograph: Chrony Alpha Model 8 ft from muzzle. (8 fps added to all recorded velocities to correct for distance of chrony from muzzle.) Barrel Type: PacNor .45 Cal Muzzleloader Barrel OD = 1.06 in Barrel ID = .452 Breech Plug:Savage Std. (screw-in ventliner) ventliner orifice .033 in. Sensor dist fm BP=1.1 in. Bullet Diam.= .458 in. Bullet Type = 1st Trace (red): Parker 325 gr. be resized to .448 in unknurled 2nd Trace (blue): Hornady 325 gr. ftx resized to .448 in. unknurled. Bullet weights = 325 gr. Sabot: None, Lubed Wool Wad Powder: Both Traces: N120 66gr. Primer :Fed 209 Shot fm dirty barrel. IMO, all considering use of this high pressure load should do so with increased caution. This load seemed safe in my barrel under the test conditions but may not be so in other conditions. Before the 2nd shot using the 325 ftx, after starting the resized bullet, I was unable to further advance the bullet without use of a mallet. Because of the high pressure observed with the 1st shot, I elected to unload, removing the breech plug, emptying the powder from the breech, and removing the bullet by inserting a wooden dowel from the breech and using a mallet, driving the breech out the muzzle. To clear residual powder from the breech threads, I then passed a bronze brush once from the breech to the muzzle, possibly removing enough fouling to significantly lower seating resistance. I then further resized the bullet and reloaded to record the second (blue) trace. This may account for the lower pressure seen with the 325gr ftx bullet (maybe not). Of note, pressures recorded today with 66gr N120 exceeded by 5k psi. pressures recorded in an earlier test with 70 gr H4198 which gave similar velocitiy behind the same bullet in the same barrel. Also of interest (to me?) was the appearance of a Federal 209 shotgun primer used in a Savage Breech Plug behind 55+k psi pressure, I have appended a photo of said primer. TG
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Post by rkrobson on Mar 21, 2011 15:56:57 GMT -5
Thanks TG, its important to have a good idea where were at when shooting any load. I believe this explains why a bullet thats easy to load can get obturated and be very accurate. Your load of 70 grs H4198 ia right where the Mundens are shooting the 325 as well. Does you work give an idea how much velocity woild be lost in a 26" vs a 28" barrel with this load, Ray
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 21, 2011 17:21:00 GMT -5
This should shed some light on the discussion of N120 and H4198 being treated as equals also.
5k more pressure with 4 less grs N120 compared with H4198 is a substantial difference in relative quickness. This further indicates that there can be use of N120 as booster.
If this load had been at 70gr this pressure would have easily reached 57+K, nearly 10K more than 70gr of H4198.
At 70grs N120 is would make in excess of 805psi/gr.
At 70grs H4198 is making 685psi/gr.
Are N120 and H4198 equal on the burn charts in this application?
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Post by edge on Mar 21, 2011 18:31:35 GMT -5
IMO, it works your way because of the conditions and if you correct the conditions you may be in for a rude awakening! I think that if you take equal loads of N120 and H4198 and put them into a 458 win mag with the 325 gr bullet you will have a higher pressure with the H4198. The reduced resistance is probably working in your favor...however this load very closely matches QL in pressure. 2540 fps @ 54.7kpsi and 100% burnt. H4198 at 66 grains shows about 2560 @ 58kpsi and 99% burnt. Perhaps next time the bore gets sufficiently fouled a 66 grain load of H4198 might be up for the comparison....But I would not do the 71 grains just in case it comes to life and reaches the 59kpsi predicted.....but it is up to you Personally I feel that this is exactly one of the reasons that RB came up with duplex. edge. Oops, that 59kpsi was for 71 grains of N120, the H4198 estimate is 61kpsi.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 21, 2011 20:16:59 GMT -5
Edge I Totally agree, just trying to show that you have to be careful when you use powders outside their tested use, they can change, but that change can be used to benefit our applications also.
Any old hand loader is also going to tell you that based on application any powder can move 5-10 places on the burn rate chart if as you say "you change/correct the conditions".
But H4198 with this same bullet (when pushed down by hand force) only reached 48K at 70grs, that is a far piece from 61K @ 66grs.
Take away the bullet engraving process and all bets are off with about any powder.
Here the problem lies in our application which is, as you said, exactly why RB developed duplexing in the first place,,,,,then add that the problem gets worse and worse as you decrease inertial resistance with reductions in bullet weight and I am sometimes quessing at best.
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Post by edge on Mar 22, 2011 5:44:51 GMT -5
I am done, you are the guys pulling the trigger...I enjoy reading your results.
edge.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 22, 2011 8:40:39 GMT -5
I am done, you are the guys pulling the trigger...I enjoy reading your results. edge. Why done, I didn't realize this was contentious in any way, or at least it hasn't been for me and frankly we/I need your knowledge and foresight. Myself and others here have been trying desperately to understand what the CF data/loads and QL type estimates mean real world to us in our applications and use. I see custom ML's with 140gr recommended loads of 4895. I see others recommending upward of 70gr H4198 and big honker bullets, knowing that these load levels could potentially become high enough for catastrophic failure under some CF conditions. But how safe are they without all the physical conditions present with centerfire use. How does it relatively fit what were doing, or does it at all. I am extremely appreciative of guys like TG also,,,taking some risk (even if logically calculated risk) to give some pressure indications. I know that the pressure readings may or may not be correct down to the psi but at least it gives us an idea of loads relative to each other and their pressure making potentials. It is more than we had.
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Post by deadeye on Mar 22, 2011 20:56:30 GMT -5
I am done, you are the guys pulling the trigger...I enjoy reading your results. edge. edge-i sure hope not-your info was not ignored. i do value your warning & opinions & such on n120 . imo- if we look back at prior high 2nd spikes that occured with much slower powders this is what i see. i think h4198 is quite near the "main" but maybe not the perfect choice as that was the best trace so far. the n120 adventure only came about when the munden gun was recommending it for their application-i'm guessing the 2nd spike would show in there load too if our traces are 100% correct. it might have been thought to quicken the burn rate for obturation & lessen the overall pressure(ql n120estimates were less than h4198 on paper)it did not turn out that way unfortunetly. through out this testing it was almost impossible to list all the thing's we were looking at for 'telltale" pressure signs' etc such as vent wear,gas cutting marks,magnifying glass the primers & plug tightness etc. on the n120 i even started as low as 30gns & work up accordingly. the two things that jumped out(pressure) was the #1 buldging primers which were pre-mature on the recessed plug,#2 vent wear & one case of a pierced primer which happened recessed plug w/ h322load. on the fouled bore note there have been times approx 70 without cleaning ,it was always very consistent with all powders & this bullet 325be- so this leaves me to think aborting n120 as a main & possibly pursue a n120/h4198 duplex if needed,i agree this will not get the pressure near 40k but the slower powders had a great problem getting the bullet obturated unless we want to start the boost say 20gns plus??? at this point i think i will go long w/h4198-smooth sized bullet & look for stabilty,then go from there. there is also a possible chance there is a powder in the h4198 area burning rate wise that might just be the "perfect single" "who knows" ;D ;D ;D
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Post by TGinPA on Mar 23, 2011 13:22:36 GMT -5
Re: Pressure trace: PN45 Is the secondary peak caused by “barrel whip”? When commenting to me about a trace I recorded on 3/21, Edge noted, that one would not expect to see a prominent secondary peak in a load with heavy charge of a relatively fast powder behind a heavy bullet where the powder was efficiently burned. Yet on 3/21, a prominent secondary peak was clearly present in the pressure trace of such a load, suggesting that barrel harmonics might be responsible. He suggested that adding weight to the barrel end might alter the harmonics, significantly reducing or altering the secondary peak. It was a good idea worth testing. Using elastic bands, I strapped a 5.2 lb sandbag on top of the distal end of the barrel and recorded 2 shots with the same load I recorded on 3/21: Gage and Module Manufacturer = RSI USB model Trigger Sensitivity = 2, Strain Gage Voltage =4.9 Gage Factor =2.1 PSI Correction Factor: 0 Barrel Temp = 64-68 degrees F. measured at the sensor (IR). Rifle Stand: Caldwell Lead Sled Altitude: 450 ft Chronograph: Chrony Alpha Model 8 ft from muzzle. (8 fps added to all recorded velocities to correct for distance of chrony from muzzle.) Barrel Type: PacNor .45 Cal Muzzleloader Barrel OD = 1.06 in Barrel ID = .452 Breech Plug:Savage Std. (screw-in ventliner) ventliner orifice: .031in. Sensor dist fm BP=1.1 in. Bullet Diam.= .458 in. Resized to .448 in. Bullet Type = Hornady 325 ftx. Bullet weight = 325gr. ,unknurled. Sabot: None. Wad: Wool lubed. Powder: Both Traces: N120 66 gr. Primer :Fed 209 Shot fm dirty barrel. This load seemed safe in my barrel under the test conditions but may not be so in other conditions. Comparing these traces with the single trace with the same bullet and powder load from 3/21, the secondary peak pressure is down with the weight on the barrel. But so is the peak pressure in the primary peak, suggesting to me that conditions other than the weight added to the barrel were responsible. Conditions were different from 2 days ago: It was 20 degrees colder today than on 3/21. Further, after I finished the test, I recalled that yesterday I installed a new ventliner which was .002 in tighter than on 3/21. So it was not really an apples-apples comparison. That said, if a change in barrel harmonics was responsible for the secondary peak, the 5.2 lb.weight I strapped to the barrel (IMO) did not dramatically lessen or change harmonics enough to dramatically alter the appearance of the secondary spike. None of this necessarily disproves Edge’s idea. It just failed to clearly be shown using the setup and under conditions present today. What is needed is a paired test in which direct comparison of multiple traces recorded with and without the added barrel weight is performed under identical conditions with the same load. I did not have time to accomplish this today but will try again when time permits. TG
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Post by edge on Mar 23, 2011 13:56:42 GMT -5
Thanks for running that test I think that it does show that you are reading real pressure and not vibrations as RSI says. edge.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 23, 2011 14:05:43 GMT -5
Thanks for running that test I think that it does show that you are reading real pressure and not vibrations as RSI says. edge. I thought from time indicated it was real "in the barrel pressure" also! I think this is probably a classic example of bullet out running load due to lack of inertial resistance (for whatever reason). JMO This is the same appearance of trace that RB would duplicate with N110 @ about 44gr with 300gr bullet, but we never really conclusively determined cause. Anytime he wanted to discount the too slow of powder theory. This powder is definitely not to slow for the bullet being used so other demons are at work, as RB noted. Million dollar question is why?
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Post by edge on Mar 23, 2011 14:17:07 GMT -5
From the RSI website I highlighted the last line as I find these loads to be less accurate for me: his interesting pressure trace was taken while shooting factory ammo. It was surely tested using standard SAMI protocols but if the lab used a peak capture meter, not an oscilloscope, they would not have seen the severe secondary pressure "if" it occurred in their test barrel. The exit time markers are where they should be for a standard barrel. Secondary pressure events are typically less severe and INSIDE the end of a long barrel. (See tech article.) We believe this to be a gross example of "deflagration" or unburned powder burning AFTER the bullet exits. The scary bit is more than 81,000 PSI is read by the strain gage located over the chamber! It is impossible to know if the entire length of the barrel was exposed to this pressure. But if it was, then the load is approaching the yield strength of thinner parts of the barrel and "could" expand the bore. Ironically the exit timing, velocity S.D. and accuracy was great for factory ammo... but it does light up half the county when fired at night.edge.
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Post by deadeye on Mar 23, 2011 16:11:09 GMT -5
Pressure Traces: H4198 60-70gr 325be At Deadeyes request and with bullets he supplied, I tested three loads, one shot each ranging from 60 to 70 grains of H4198 under a Parker 325gr. ballistic extreme bullet. At 70 grains, recoil was enough to reset the tang safety to the “safe” position. Also, at 70gr., the primer displayed clear signs of cratering into the firing pin orifice. TG Gage and Module Manufacturer = RSI USB model Trigger Sensitivity = 2, Strain Gage Voltage =4.9 Gage Factor =2.1 PSI Correction Factor: 0 Barrel Temp = 58-62 degrees F. measured at the sensor (IR). Rifle Stand: Caldwell Lead Sled Altitude: 450 ft Chronograph: Chrony Alpha Model 8 ft from muzzle. (8 fps added to all recorded velocities to correct for distance of chrony from muzzle.) Barrel Type: PacNor .45 Cal Muzzleloader Barrel OD = 1.06 in Barrel ID = .452 Breech Plug:Savage Std. (screw-in ventliner) ventliner orifice .033 in. Sensor dist fm BP=1.1 in. Bullet Diam.= .458 in. Bullet Type = Parker 325gr. BE Bullet weight = 325gr. ,resized to.448in, knurled. Sabot: None. Wad: Lubed wool. Powder: Trace 1: H4198 60gr. Trace 2: H4198 65gr. Trace 3: H4198 70gr. Shot fm dirty barrel. This load seemed safe in my barrel under the test conditions but may not be so in other conditions. i keep lookin at this trace,i think it provides a possible clue look at the *eff% vs. the powder charges graphed,just" swag"-in. thought it good to take another look for opinions for direction
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Post by deadeye on Mar 24, 2011 11:06:17 GMT -5
this recessed plug early in testing has really thrown a major league curveball. after chewing on edge's recommendation about h4198& n120 posssibly coming to life,decided to go over all the data again. i realized last night the 2015 & 3031 prior results were on the old recessed plug.
all here w/325be knurled **standard plug-vent @ approx.034**
2015 70gns @ 2511fps-hammered down-very tight 72gns @2328fps-on loose side 75gns @ 2467fps 77gns @ 2467,2449fps
r7 76gns@2581fps 77gns@2642fps 78gns@2624fps primers visually looked much better w r7
3031 77gns @2380fps 80gns @2456fps 83gns @2539fps 85gns @2578fps
no visual pressure signs on all & primers looked better on all 3 powders especially rel 7
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Post by stubblejumper on Mar 24, 2011 22:01:07 GMT -5
TG
Reloader 7 looks promising, awaiting traces ;D
(when you have time of course)
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Post by deadeye on Mar 25, 2011 10:24:19 GMT -5
TG Reloader 7 looks promising, awaiting traces ;D (when you have time of course) ql estimates @ 77gns@2728fps@62kpsi
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Post by deadeye on Mar 25, 2011 10:36:36 GMT -5
ql estimates 3031
75gn@2508fps@39.5k@98%burnt 81.5gn@2599fps@42k @99%burnt
duplex h4198/3031
10/65=2495fps 10/67=2518fps 13/67=2599fps 15/67=2644fps 3 shot es- 15/67-2634fps,2649,& 2621 pulled vent-around-.038 was @ .034 prior to these & above 2015,r7&3031 test.
15/67 looks to have promise but need to redo w/new vent.
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Post by edge on Mar 25, 2011 10:45:34 GMT -5
The 3031 makes me much more comfortable I think that if you find an accurate load you can trek on over to Africa with it, or look for deer Waaaay over there! ;D edge.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 25, 2011 11:11:53 GMT -5
The 3031 makes me much more comfortable I think that if you find an accurate load you can trek on over to Africa with it, or look for deer Waaaay over there! ;D edge. Why "trek" over there when you can kill'em from here>>>>> ;D
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Post by deadeye on Mar 25, 2011 11:13:02 GMT -5
all expense paid by'' doug's board'' of course ;D ;D ;D
thx edge for your help! i hope this pans out safely,accurately
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Post by fishhawk on Mar 25, 2011 11:35:55 GMT -5
I've followed this thread some, May have missed an idea like this: McGowen and maybe others offer a barrel in .442/.451. 1in18 or 1in24 both 6 groove. What opinions would I get on useing one of these with a Swinglock fullform die and the 327 Parker? And since it's sabotless how about a muzzle brake for wimps (me included).
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Post by edge on Mar 25, 2011 12:05:22 GMT -5
IIRC RB used that caliber for his first barrels.
I do not know why he decided to switch to the rifle caliber (0.458 ) but suspect that it was for sabot use which are fairly limited in available sizes..
For sabotless most calibers should be fine as long as you can size the bullet properly.
edge.
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Post by Dave W on Mar 25, 2011 13:44:03 GMT -5
I've followed this thread some, May have missed an idea like this: McGowen and maybe others offer a barrel in .442/.451. 1in18 or 1in24 both 6 groove. What opinions would I get on useing one of these with a Swinglock fullform die and the 327 Parker? And since it's sabotless how about a muzzle brake for wimps (me included). When I talked to Tom about the full form die, he felt the full form offered an advantage over conventional sizing for the pressures most here are shooting at. I think Tom posted that the full form bullets shot to a higher velocity with less powder, so I assume pressures are going to be higher than what has been traced to this point. Another question is how much higher is pressure going to be going from a .458 bore down to .451 if velocity and charge weight are the same?
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 25, 2011 14:00:19 GMT -5
Need a rifle for Afria's big six, If you have a Savage .50 in your rack, you all ready have it.
400 gr. Barnes Buster Bullet, 71 grs of H4198, CR sabot. 2167FPS...
If its made from flesh and blood, this load will bring it. Its the twin ballisticly to the 404 Jefferies, a well respected Elephant round. I would love to be able to post pictues standing next to a big tusker, but father time say you waited too long dummy.....more important my wife says so.
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Post by deadeye on Mar 25, 2011 18:57:23 GMT -5
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