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Post by deadeye on Mar 5, 2011 22:29:19 GMT -5
Deadeye. I try not to say anything I'm not a contributor just one that is looking for knowledge. But I have to ask a question? Could some of the differant traces be due to the fact that a m/z loader is not going to have some of the same properties as a centerfire and we may have to rethink what we are seeing. Not that what we are seeing is wrong. Just the reason why? Jon jon-you sure have contributed & didnt know it i think what we are seeing is lack of total bullet obturation from not enough powder. the ql estimates seem to be on the high side(thats a good thing) after looking over data,tg's trace's & book logged data & hodgdon's 458 mag data-it is quite clear we need more powder. looks like the .458mag data will be in line compressed & non-compressed.
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Post by Jon on Mar 6, 2011 8:00:38 GMT -5
Deadeye thank you for the info. and great work you are doing to advance mzl. Jon
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Post by deadeye on Mar 6, 2011 9:01:29 GMT -5
interesting data- all--325gn bullets ql est h4198- 55.5@2303@51.8k 70.0@2619@60.3k tg's 53.0 trace 34.5k@approx 2200fps********* hodgdon .458mag starting load 70gns @51k approx@2600fps hodgdon .458mag max approx 75gns @ approx 58k
**update on ql-h4198/325bullet 60gns@2410fps@55.5k 64gns@2516fps@56.7k 67gns@2576fps@59k
imr4895@ 87gns tg's trace 39.7k@2600fps approx ql predicts 45k@2630fps
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Post by deadeye on Mar 6, 2011 11:53:02 GMT -5
3.6.2011 -h4198 test 325be 60gns @2540fps 64gns@2651fps 67 @2695 70 @2775 very slight pressure on primer cup
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Post by jims on Mar 6, 2011 12:08:48 GMT -5
Nice shooting.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2011 5:05:55 GMT -5
good info, will have to get some 325s and do some testing in the 700 when its done...and good consistent triggering by the way...Bill
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Post by TGinPA on Mar 7, 2011 11:45:30 GMT -5
Pressure Traces: H4198 60-70gr 325be At Deadeyes request and with bullets he supplied, I tested three loads, one shot each ranging from 60 to 70 grains of H4198 under a Parker 325gr. ballistic extreme bullet. At 70 grains, recoil was enough to reset the tang safety to the “safe” position. Also, at 70gr., the primer displayed clear signs of cratering into the firing pin orifice. TG Gage and Module Manufacturer = RSI USB model Trigger Sensitivity = 2, Strain Gage Voltage =4.9 Gage Factor =2.1 PSI Correction Factor: 0 Barrel Temp = 58-62 degrees F. measured at the sensor (IR). Rifle Stand: Caldwell Lead Sled Altitude: 450 ft Chronograph: Chrony Alpha Model 8 ft from muzzle. (8 fps added to all recorded velocities to correct for distance of chrony from muzzle.) Barrel Type: PacNor .45 Cal Muzzleloader Barrel OD = 1.06 in Barrel ID = .452 Breech Plug:Savage Std. (screw-in ventliner) ventliner orifice .033 in. Sensor dist fm BP=1.1 in. Bullet Diam.= .458 in. Bullet Type = Parker 325gr. BE Bullet weight = 325gr. ,resized to.448in, knurled. Sabot: None. Wad: Lubed wool. Powder: Trace 1: H4198 60gr. Trace 2: H4198 65gr. Trace 3: H4198 70gr. Shot fm dirty barrel. This load seemed safe in my barrel under the test conditions but may not be so in other conditions.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 7, 2011 12:10:58 GMT -5
WOW, not nearly the pressure I had expected. At least 10K less than I had thought at 70gr.
I see now why so many are using this load range sabotless in the .45.
This is very informative.
Thanks for your work.
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Post by deadeye on Mar 7, 2011 12:51:05 GMT -5
yes,great work tginpa & thx a million!
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Post by Dave W on Mar 7, 2011 13:30:42 GMT -5
So what you are saying is this kicks a little. ;D
Thanks for the test, very informative.
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Post by deadeye on Mar 11, 2011 17:29:15 GMT -5
3/11/11 update vv-n120 knurled- 300xtp's-65gn@2597 68gn@2660
325be- 62gn@2530 non-knurled all 64gn@2558 66gn@2608 68gn@2647 no visable pressure signs on all reading's ql estimate's 55g@2273fps@43.4k 60g@2366fps@47.9k 65g@2451fps@52.4k 70g@2573fps@53.7k
these pressure est's are less than the prior h4198 & probably will be less than listed much like the actual h4198 trace's the primer orfice appears to have less pressure also per magnifying glass inspection
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 11, 2011 17:49:19 GMT -5
Is it possible that the reason the safety resets. is because you are using a lead sled, When shooting both the Barnes 350 X bullet and the Barnes Buster bullet off rice filled bags, I don't have that problem With the sled the rifle is absorbs the recoil, with bags the shooter absorbs it. Just a thought, I'm sure one of the wise will have the answer PS, Ive shot those loads a bunch of times.
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Post by rkrobson on Mar 11, 2011 18:09:48 GMT -5
Deadyeye, very similiar to my velocities with 66 gr. Do I understand correctly that Iam on the edge of where I should be with pressure? thanks, Ray
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Post by deadeye on Mar 11, 2011 21:24:11 GMT -5
update- workin on the es this evening picked n120-66.0gns because of speed. i think we are getting proper obturation now,only found 1,these are hard to catch ;D 100yds-distance es-2693 sunlight effected-moved chrony a few feet to shade,2595,2608,2613 noted pressure on primer,2613 again pressure on primer. after dissassembling vent @ .039 afterwards which i'm sure opened in a hurry after shot#3 i think the only way i could tighten these any further without luck is having a #1-jewell trigger set low #2-fine "target crosshair #3- more scope power #4- all shots on a vent without it opening much #5-possibly a better rest
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 11, 2011 21:34:23 GMT -5
Double WOW
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 11, 2011 21:49:19 GMT -5
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Post by Dave W on Mar 11, 2011 22:02:46 GMT -5
Great shooting.
Without a carbide bushing I don't see a way around the vent wear. A bushing might not last long either if the pressures are close to Swinglock pressures. I think their loads go through a carbide bushing in approximately a 100 shots but they may only be hardened bushings-can't remember for sure.
Mighty fine trigger work with that thumper.
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Post by rkrobson on Mar 11, 2011 22:25:39 GMT -5
Iam so happy, I could pop. Unless there's a problem, why not keep the ventliner until accuracy, pressure or? says otherwise? Who established a dia for this load with this gun, just curious. I had to sit back and say "what I thought I new was wrong". I was knurling bullets so tight I had to hammer them down. Iam glad to see this combo works in the pacs. Great shhoting! Ray
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Post by jims on Mar 11, 2011 22:49:49 GMT -5
Mighty nice.
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Post by jims on Mar 11, 2011 22:56:37 GMT -5
It makes me wonder if a sabot could interfere with accuracy to some extent, that is one thing shooting sabotless takes out of the equation. To rkrobson: I have a .40 by RB in PacNor. It shoots strictly bare. The bullets always felt too loose to me also but RB sent me a bullet he knurled and it was just as loose. I could not argue with him or the results either, it shot well even though it loaded loosely or at least as compared to saboted loading in a .50. Maybe just a different creature. Two fine shooting .45s.
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Post by deadeye on Mar 11, 2011 23:51:55 GMT -5
Great shooting. Without a carbide bushing I don't see a way around the vent wear. A bushing might not last long either if the pressures are close to Swinglock pressures. I think their loads go through a carbide bushing in approximately a 100 shots but they may only be hardened bushings-can't remember for sure. Mighty fine trigger work with that thumper. davew- glad you shared that info on carbide etc. once this gun is set-up-it wont get many rounds sent,so i think what i will do is a fouler,sight-in & go, if i feel a primer swell ,then its time for a new one which i' guessing about 15shots. savageshooter recommended a while back the rw hardened ones for these "high-horsepower loads" i think i will place an order.
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Post by deadon on Mar 12, 2011 4:45:13 GMT -5
WOW If I find a load that shoots that good, I am going to have to buy underwear by the case Rusty
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Post by dave d. on Mar 12, 2011 7:47:19 GMT -5
:)simply awsome...
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Post by rkrobson on Mar 12, 2011 9:44:08 GMT -5
Deadeye, if your plug will accept a 1/2" vent shoot me a pm and I'll send you one as will not get to try it soon. Now that you have a baseline for velocity and accuracy, you could try this vent as is and then drill out larger if necessary. Maybe this has been done, just offering . My next atep was to case harden once and then twice. Got a call from Jeanie at Kaltron-Pettibone, Vihtavouri powder container arrived this week, so all distributors will be getting it soon. 86 degees in Tucson, hot!, Ray
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Post by deadeye on Mar 12, 2011 13:25:31 GMT -5
Deadeye, if your plug will accept a 1/2" vent shoot me a pm and I'll send you one as will not get to try it soon. Now that you have a baseline for velocity and accuracy, you could try this vent as is and then drill out larger if necessary. Maybe this has been done, just offering . My next atep was to case harden once and then twice. Got a call from Jeanie at Kaltron-Pettibone, Vihtavouri powder container arrived this week, so all distributors will be getting it soon. 86 degees in Tucson, hot!, Ray ray,dont know on the 1/2'' vent,i just have standard savage plug. thx for the offer! regarding pressures i think the n120/66gn will be about 45k but wont know until a trace is done for sure. it appears the primer/vent/ignition is the weak link since we are no where near danger levels on pressure.
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Post by Jon on Mar 12, 2011 17:39:27 GMT -5
Ray. I'm curious how the 1/2in. long vent works out you may have come out with the next great thing in smokless m/l's? Jon
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Post by rkrobson on Mar 12, 2011 19:22:41 GMT -5
Jon, when I see all the work put in by guys like deadeye, edge daved, rb, etc, I just want to contribute someway. All my interest in these tack driving muzzleloaders is strictly very selfish, and that's to hunt trophy mule deer, elk and antelope out west, and maybe throw in a whitetail or two. That being said, its become an obsession almost. I have friends who see me with my shooting bench in my truck all the time ask, "how much shoting can you do?" I can't expect them to understand, but I know you guys do, and like deadeye, once the optimum with this gun and bullet is obtained, Ill be on some sort of a plateau, maybe, Ray
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Post by jims on Mar 12, 2011 20:53:43 GMT -5
I saw some of those 325s that deadeye has. A sleek looking bullet, I would think they would do wonders on all of those game animals. Let us know how those hunts all come out. Shooting is also alot more fun when you get to shoot those bug eye groups.
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Post by jeremylong on Mar 15, 2011 15:52:17 GMT -5
Hey deadeye, were these bullets knurled? how tight did you make them load?
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Post by deadeye on Mar 15, 2011 22:16:35 GMT -5
Hey deadeye, were these bullets knurled? how tight did you make them load? jeremy l- i had just got the swinglock die in & tinkered going smooth-325 vs. knurled in the past. so the n120 target was a double- switch(powder & smooth bullet) also hopefully even less pressure than the h4198 knurled prior loads. smooth loaded firm approx 40lbs im guessing if time & weather permits i think i'm going to launch 3 smooth @ approx 650yds,then 3 knurled @ that distance. i think ultimately(too late for me ) would be a barrel drop from a slightly undersized bore per 325be(.449) matched & the full form die that engraves rifling on bullet through that die-it surely would be superior in my thinking.
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