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Post by smokeless77 on Feb 23, 2011 19:48:32 GMT -5
Deadeye, I wonder how the 7/81 n-110/varget would be with a 275 gr. b/e?
John
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Post by deadeye on Feb 23, 2011 20:31:41 GMT -5
Deadeye, I wonder how the 7/81 n-110/varget would be with a 275 gr. b/e? John john- i dont feel like i'm qualified to answer that but'im guessing a faster powder more likely,hopefully savageshooter will step in & answer your question. after this(325be) is finished maybe later try to get that 275be a cruisin,i could get into say a 2700- 2800fps load for that,after all i have approx quantity 500 laying around ;D great question!
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Post by Savage Shooter on Feb 23, 2011 21:02:03 GMT -5
Deadeye, I wonder how the 7/81 n-110/varget would be with a 275 gr. b/e? John I am guessing that Varget is going to be a bit slow for 275gr class. What powders and speeds are you using now. How much barrel do length do you have to work with? Have you shot H322 as single I would expect 63gr to go over 2400. Can probably get to over 2500 with benchmark @ 65-66gr. If I was going to start a duplex project with 275gr in .45 I would probably start with Benchmark. May even need to be as slow as 4895 but kinda doubt it with the results Deadeye is seeing with the 325. I always lean to slower then boost and see what speeds do and how fps/gr react. I prefer to start under pressured and go from there, doing this the chrony is your friend. Best loads for the 200gr bullets seem to be in the 35-38fps per grain area. Loads under that seem to be temp sensitive and. Loads over that start having pressure issues (certainly not necessarily dangerous, just at the point you need to pay closer attention). With the 275 to 300 class bullets that is going to become 30-35fps/grain. I look for this speed potential in 24-25" barrels like most are shooting. Nothing in stone just a load building process. Nothing is set when doing this. I look for the fps/gr mentioned above but then Bad Bull goes 3100 with 140gr powder = 22fps/grain. But takes a lot of barrel to do this with. What I watch for is that as you reach upper end for burn rate of your selected powder fps/gr normally starts a downward trend.......
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Post by bigmoose on Feb 24, 2011 9:22:57 GMT -5
I tried and failed to shoot the 325 BE with sabot, I loaded 71 grs of H4198 with a Harvester Black CB and an MMP Orange sabot, no ignition. I did too good a job in resizing the bullet to shoot sabotless. I knurled with two files puting as much pressure as I could, but it loaded too easy, and just went pop.
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Post by Dave W on Feb 24, 2011 18:30:33 GMT -5
Deadeye, I wonder how the 7/81 n-110/varget would be with a 275 gr. b/e? John I am guessing that Varget is going to be a bit slow for 275gr class. What powders and speeds are you using now. How much barrel do length do you have to work with? Have you shot H322 as single I would expect 63gr to go over 2400. Can probably get to over 2500 with benchmark @ 65-66gr. If I was going to start a duplex project with 275gr in .45 I would probably start with Benchmark. May even need to be as slow as 4895 but kinda doubt it with the results Deadeye is seeing with the 325. I always lean to slower then boost and see what speeds do and how fps/gr react. I prefer to start under pressured and go from there, doing this the chrony is your friend. Best loads for the 200gr bullets seem to be in the 35-38fps per grain area. Loads under that seem to be temp sensitive and. Loads over that start having pressure issues (certainly not necessarily dangerous, just at the point you need to pay closer attention). With the 275 to 300 class bullets that is going to become 30-35fps/grain. I look for this speed potential in 24-25" barrels like most are shooting. Nothing in stone just a load building process. Nothing is set when doing this. I look for the fps/gr mentioned above but then Bad Bull goes 3100 with 140gr powder = 22fps/grain. But takes a lot of barrel to do this with. What I watch for is that as you reach upper end for burn rate of your selected powder fps/gr normally starts a downward trend....... Based on my gun with the 250 & 275 BE's and Deadeye's loads with the 275 BE, 40-45fps per grain might be better. I think Harley is approx. 40fps per grain with the 275BE. I checked all my loads, saboted as well as sabotless, 200gr-300gr bullets. They all fall between 40-45fps per grain approximately, most in the 44fps window, the low being a 300 XTP/SST @ 40fps.. They all are straight 4198 or N110/H322-2015 dupexes that shoot similar velocities to straight 4198. Interesting observation Mark.
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Post by deadeye on Feb 24, 2011 19:10:22 GMT -5
2.25.2011 update- today was to test for es & work in load. we had a velocity jump from yesterday & it must have been the lighting, any way we will call this "big bughole day" 110/varget 7/81=2784,2813&2805 fps/chrono @ 20ft made adjustment -10/70 es=2666,2657,2649,2652,2659,2652,2687 scope adjustment & 204yd bench for a 2shot group,daylight running out note- i have noticed that everyrtime i go over approx 2600fps during load adjusting -it starts to open a little so i'm going to back speed approx 2550fps-i bet it will tighten up & hopefully the es's will remain good! good day-still got work to do & i think we are getting very close to the accurate load.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Feb 24, 2011 19:15:25 GMT -5
I am guessing that Varget is going to be a bit slow for 275gr class. What powders and speeds are you using now. How much barrel do length do you have to work with? Have you shot H322 as single I would expect 63gr to go over 2400. Can probably get to over 2500 with benchmark @ 65-66gr. If I was going to start a duplex project with 275gr in .45 I would probably start with Benchmark. May even need to be as slow as 4895 but kinda doubt it with the results Deadeye is seeing with the 325. I always lean to slower then boost and see what speeds do and how fps/gr react. I prefer to start under pressured and go from there, doing this the chrony is your friend. Best loads for the 200gr bullets seem to be in the 35-38fps per grain area. Loads under that seem to be temp sensitive and. Loads over that start having pressure issues (certainly not necessarily dangerous, just at the point you need to pay closer attention). With the 275 to 300 class bullets that is going to become 30-35fps/grain. I look for this speed potential in 24-25" barrels like most are shooting. Nothing in stone just a load building process. Nothing is set when doing this. I look for the fps/gr mentioned above but then Bad Bull goes 3100 with 140gr powder = 22fps/grain. But takes a lot of barrel to do this with. What I watch for is that as you reach upper end for burn rate of your selected powder fps/gr normally starts a downward trend....... Based on my gun with the 250 & 275 BE's and Deadeye's loads with the 275 BE, 40-45fps per grain might be better. I think Harley is approx. 40fps per grain with the 275BE. I checked all my loads, saboted as well as sabotless, 200gr-300gr bullets. They all fall between 40-45fps per grain approximately, most in the 44fps window, the low being a 300 XTP/SST @ 40fps.. They all are straight 4198 or N110/H322-2015 dupexes that shoot similar velocities to straight 4198. Interesting observation Mark. I personally use 40fps/grain minimum for 250 grain bullets and 42-43fps/gr for the 200gr bullets. It really helps me when shooting over chrony with known safe load, I will divide fps by total load grains to establish a "prediction" then as I work load up toward my speed goal if the load stops making fps at a correct exponential rate per grain you can consider that load is "flatlined" on speed but pressure is going way up quick. It helps me squeeze down ES also. Nothing is in stone but it gives some method to the madness. In the .45 with me not having a lot of personal experience to pull from YET, especially with heavy weight bullets, I was just being a bit conservative. Mostly based on the speeds and pressures the Bad Bull is getting with the heavier class bullets, but it is something that shooter developing loads can help use without pressure testing equipment to make sure they are not getting into unsafe area.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Feb 24, 2011 19:25:12 GMT -5
Very good news and results!!
Now should be able to trace and see if got any anomaly or something unknown going on.
ES on 7 shots at 38. I would like to squeeze that down some more....IF we can.
Trace would help tell what to do next.
ES may not like the speed coming down.
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Post by deadeye on Feb 24, 2011 19:54:20 GMT -5
Very good news and results!! Now should be able to trace and see if got any anomaly or something unknown going on. ES on 7 shots at 38. I would like to squeeze that down some more....IF we can. Trace would help tell what to do next. ES may not like the speed coming down. boy if that "87" had not just popped up & i made a mental note before that last shot- light had changed slightly heading into evening not saying that was it but possible with my inexpensive "chrony"
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Post by Savage Shooter on Feb 24, 2011 21:03:45 GMT -5
Very good news and results!! Now should be able to trace and see if got any anomaly or something unknown going on. ES on 7 shots at 38. I would like to squeeze that down some more....IF we can. Trace would help tell what to do next. ES may not like the speed coming down. boy if that "87" had not just popped up & i made a mental note before that last shot- light had changed slightly heading into evening not saying that was it but possible with my inexpensive "chrony" Could very well be a chrony anomaly and certainly don't think the ES is bad or out of range, for 7 shots it is really pretty darn good.....and let see if my math is right the first FIVE, oh I meant SIX in order of shot was at a paltry 17!To test my math skills (very limited at best) the 38fps ES = 3.1" @ 600 and the 17fps ES = 1.4" @ 600.............does that put ES induced error at about .5moa or LESS or am I missing something? Note that I used a BC of .4 with a 200yd zero. Again guessing.
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Post by jims on Feb 24, 2011 21:31:07 GMT -5
Nice shooting.
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Post by shooter on Feb 25, 2011 9:44:35 GMT -5
Deadeye,That is some awesome shooting. :)That getting the Job done.
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Post by deadeye on Feb 25, 2011 11:32:22 GMT -5
thx guys,to be truthful i was not on my game shooting wise 1-4 -especially #3 & #4,#4 i incorrectly shoulder pushed the shot countering the recoil* aka-shooter error*. //took a break,re-evaluated my self & returned w/ #5,6,7, & the 2 @ 204 broke correctly with follow-through! 5,6,7 roughly measured .610 & 2 @ 204yds were just under .5
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Post by deadeye on Feb 27, 2011 14:17:11 GMT -5
2.27.2011 frustration >:(update- setting up targets only to have this approx 80lb yote(which we have had a bounty on for 2yrs) watch me with my- mz@650yds away & my 220swift 1/2 mile away. he was approx 350yds away-easy plink w/swift. well we have lost stabilty(obturation) even though these loads were on the very firm side going down,all six shots before checking target,3 @ 454yds,3@650yds--110/varget-10/70 approx 5''group & i knew at looking at this target 650yds would not be good either keyholing-approx 14''group very disappointing especially after the great groups @ 100yds time to adjust!
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Post by alphaburnt on Feb 27, 2011 22:10:30 GMT -5
My only suggestion, would be to try to push it faster ( safely) as to act like a faster twist. It could be that bullet is too nose heavy to retain stability at the further distances?
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Post by deadeye on Feb 28, 2011 0:35:41 GMT -5
My only suggestion, would be to try to push it faster ( safely) as to act like a faster twist. It could be that bullet is too nose heavy to retain stability at the further distances? good observation alpha- we might have just run into a dead-end road possibly for this barrel a 1/22 with the 325be@ 500yds plus. richard's & bad bull's are better than 1/20 twist. if i had only possibly known that a couple years ago! your input is greatly appreciated.
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Post by spaniel on Mar 1, 2011 6:48:59 GMT -5
This was a 1-22" twist? I wondered how long it would be before someone came out with a bullet that made me regret not going faster on my PacNor...that didn't take long.
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Post by ET on Mar 1, 2011 8:44:31 GMT -5
Deadeye
You sound a little disappointed reaching a certain level with the 325be bullet?
As a follower of this thread and from my perspective I only see a major advancement with muzzle loading. A lot of knowledge was gained from sharing your approach to load development that was safely reached.
Your time and efforts are appreciated and many will gain from what you shared. Here too a noted thank you for TGinPA and Savage Shooter for their contributions of assisting with this project.
It doesn’t seem all that long ago when I first got into smokeless muzzle loading because of deer hunting opportunities and thought reaching MOA 200yd accuracy was something great to achieve. Now with what I see being accomplished by yourself and others I only touched the tip of the iceberg.
Here I just want to say thanks for your contribution.
No this is not to imply any closure but to recognize a point reached.
Ed
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Post by deadeye on Mar 1, 2011 8:53:39 GMT -5
This was a 1-22" twist? I wondered how long it would be before someone came out with a bullet that made me regret not going faster on my PacNor...that didn't take long. spaniel-dont regret it yet as i think the 1/22 will be fine.if you look back on the original 53.0 h4198 we were having our way so to speak out to 525yds. somewhere from there to 650yds lost stability & i'm guessing very near that 650yd mark since 2 of those shots were approx an 1-1/2'' apart. that probably was due to velocity loss at that long range since we know all the data prior on the recessed plug would be considered "starting loads" . we are now narrowing down pressure,obturation & speed(all combined) to get the best of all worlds out of the sav-nor 26"". hint-without duplexing in mind right now its starting to favor imr4895 for the above combined but i'm out of 300xtp's to help be sure.
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Post by deadeye on Mar 1, 2011 12:55:24 GMT -5
fyi-proper time for this imo- just talked to pac-nor, their barrels(steel) are pressure rated to approx 130,000 kpsi.
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Post by deadeye on Mar 1, 2011 23:03:00 GMT -5
update-03.01.2011- 300gn xtp imr4895-78.0=2440fps 82.0=2506 86.0=2614t
325be imr4895 87.0=2609fps est-45kpsi
300gn xtp h4198- 68.0=2586fps 70.0=2659fps **note 325gn @70gns est@ 60.3kpsi- quickload**
***swinglock/parker 325be/h4198- load 73.0gns@2650fps*****
with the pac-nor barrel rated @ approx 130,000kpsi weak link #1 is the primer weak link#2 is the breech plug
with no signs of pressure on the primer even if @ approx 60kpsi i can see how they are using h4198@ these volumes safely even though vent wear would be probably short on a standard plug.
our direction will be to achieve results w/4895 @ reduced pressure @ approx 45k range which will be possibly ideal for vent wear & hopefully total obturation wise to stabilize @ approx 600yds +
imo - very interesting- we now are very close
these 2 loads will eventually be tested @ long range for stability & fine-tuned for es & accuracy & possible adjustments
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Post by TGinPA on Mar 2, 2011 13:00:57 GMT -5
Pressure Trace: IMR4895 87gr. 325be At Deadeye’s request with his generously donated bullets, using the PT apparatus, I tested the above load. Pressures were somewhat less than QL estimates, probably due to relative absence of bullet engraving resistance when compared with cartridge loads. Of interest is the the slow pressure rise and peak pressure delay to .5 milliseconds. At about 2600fps velocity, significant recoil was noted. Gage and Module Manufacturer = RSI USB model Trigger Sensitivity = 2, Strain Gage Voltage =4.9 Gage Factor =2.1 PSI Correction Factor: 0 Barrel Temp = 66 degrees F. measured at the sensor (IR). Rifle Stand: Caldwell Lead Sled Altitude: 450 ft Chronograph: Chrony Alpha Model 8 ft from muzzle. (8 fps added to all recorded velocities to correct for distance of chrony from muzzle.) Barrel Type: PacNor .45 Cal Muzzleloader Barrel OD = 1.06 in Barrel ID = .452 Breech Plug:Savage Std. (screw-in ventliner) ventliner orifice .033 in. Sensor dist fm BP=1.1 in. Bullet Diam.= .458 in. Bullet Type = Parker 325be Bullet weight = 325gr., resized, knurled. Sabot: None. lubed wool wad Powder: (both shots) IMR4895 87gr. Primer :Fed 209 Shot fm dirty barrel. This load seemed safe in my barrel under the test conditions but may not be in other conditions.
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Post by deadeye on Mar 3, 2011 9:17:52 GMT -5
pressure's are somewhat less than ql estimates,probably due to relative absence of bullet engraving resistance somewhat less than ql if we look back at the start,the 53.0 h4198@approx 2300fps which was on the old(my gun)(deep recessed plug showing primer pressure visably) take a closer look at that trace peak @ .3 millisecond with a softer 2nd spike,then look at the other traces in which the 2nd spike got more dominant & 1st peak was approx .5 millisecond or even later.
now with my standard plug, tg's & my velocities are very close. with the stability appearing as good & if not better the @53.0 h4198 load at the bench & downrange at 525yds i think had better obturation but not enough powder. now with the standard plug we were able to return & up the h4198 powder up to 70gns safely.
i expect a acceptable better trace @70gns h4198 with approx ql estimated pressures safely.
i think it boils down to this-the 325be-jacket thickness .028 needs kicked in the pants a little(quicker) harder to get proper obturation. then there's the possibility of duplexing the imr 4895 to reduce pressure to keep vent wear down
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 3, 2011 10:18:22 GMT -5
pressure's are somewhat less than ql estimates,probably due to relative absence of bullet engraving resistance somewhat less than ql if we look back at the start,the 53.0 h4198@approx 2300fps which was on the old(my gun)(deep recessed plug showing primer pressure visably) take a closer look at that trace peak @ .3 millisecond with a softer 2nd spike,then look at the other traces in which the 2nd spike got more dominant & 1st peak was approx .5 millisecond or even later. now with my standard plug, tg's & my velocities are very close. with the stability appearing as good & if not better the @53.0 h4198 load at the bench & downrange at 525yds i think had better obturation but not enough powder. now with the standard plug we were able to return & up the h4198 powder up to 70gns safely. i expect a acceptable better trace @70gns h4198 with approx ql estimated pressures safely. i think it boils down to this-the 325be-jacket thickness .028 needs kicked in the pants a little(quicker) harder to get proper obturation. then there's the possibility of duplexing the imr 4895 to reduce pressure to keep vent wear down Exactly........
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Post by rkrobson on Mar 3, 2011 20:57:32 GMT -5
Just a thought here, would a .458 bullet run through a fullform die offer an advantage in creating a more uniform pressure curve? and possibly offer greater long range accuracy potential? Iam on this bullet in a big way, but the .458 300 gr Barnes O would meet this criteria. The 325 BE could be knurled heavily up to .458 and ran through a full from die??? Go ahead and slap me around, Ray
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 3, 2011 21:14:12 GMT -5
Just a thought here, would a .458 bullet run through a fullform die offer an advantage in creating a more uniform pressure curve? and possibly offer greater long range accuracy potential? Iam on this bullet in a big way, but the .458 300 gr Barnes O would meet this criteria. The 325 BE could be knurled heavily up to .458 and ran through a full from die??? Go ahead and slap me around, Ray No slapping around here, I have had the exact same thoughts, but the BC of the 325 is really appealing too.
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Post by deadeye on Mar 4, 2011 1:00:35 GMT -5
Deadeye You sound a little disappointed reaching a certain level with the 325be bullet? As a follower of this thread and from my perspective I only see a major advancement with muzzle loading. A lot of knowledge was gained from sharing your approach to load development that was safely reached. Your time and efforts are appreciated and many will gain from what you shared. Here too a noted thank you for TGinPA and Savage Shooter for their contributions of assisting with this project. It doesn’t seem all that long ago when I first got into smokeless muzzle loading because of deer hunting opportunities and thought reaching MOA 200yd accuracy was something great to achieve. Now with what I see being accomplished by yourself and others I only touched the tip of the iceberg. Here I just want to say thanks for your contribution. No this is not to imply any closure but to recognize a point reached. Ed et & all- i am a very dedicated & competitive in my shooting & such. i also am a person that is built on the frame-can't never did anything". with a few others building these rifles with the 325be successfully, i know it can be done with the sav-nor within its reasonable limits. i reasonably expect to shoot in the 3'' range say @ 500-525yds& 4-5''@650yds or so. i really accomplished part of my goal even though no groups shot for record at those distance's with the beginning load 53.0/h4198. savage shooter tapped me on the shoulder & basically said there is more to get for this ''true long range load". in my mind the "team" was formed as meaning-anyone that wanted to contribute as we were not going to be un-receptive to thoughts,ideas & knowledge anyone might have for this project & pursue it safely. turns out a blessing to not find everything in approx 2 weeks like i thought i would. i hated feeling like a "board-hog" but once i start something we will fight it till the end in the open as it happens. this has been very educational for me. i'm just hoping the many taking the tour will find it rewarding also. i have received a few appreciated pm's saying something like this-this is very interesting,keep it up & don't quit. . it may also provide some that are critical of long range shooting some education on just how much goes into properly setting up the long game. my only frustration is just not nailing it yet but now are very very close. i have absolutely no ego in this,just call it my contribution! i do especially thank savage shooter,tginpa davew & edge for their endless help. we will get this!
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Post by Jon on Mar 4, 2011 13:45:43 GMT -5
Deadeye. Keep up the great work you're alread in a range that few thought to tread. From what I have seen from your shooting and the pressure traces Your almost there the pressure traces seem to show there is some tuning that might help for that last little bit. I'm still waiting to see someone shooting a full form die and what differances are to be had if any? Jon
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Post by deadeye on Mar 5, 2011 15:02:54 GMT -5
jon- i would think the full-form would be ideal since bullet engraving per barrel drop & twist. the 325be is not available in .458 so i would have to order a new barrel. if i did i would order a barrel to match the 325be(.449) & perhaps that is what swinglock,badbull are doing etc. these dies are being produced for a reason & they dont recommend knurling.
i find & have noted on the loads that a slightly mis-knurled bullet amounts to approx 25-30fps which would play havoc on es & verticle in the long game.
i am expecting my adjustable die soon & will run a few through smooth to fit(un-knurled) to test for velocity & stability difference's
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Post by Jon on Mar 5, 2011 19:44:52 GMT -5
Deadeye. I try not to say anything I'm not a contributor just one that is looking for knowledge. But I have to ask a question? Could some of the differant traces be due to the fact that a m/z loader is not going to have some of the same properties as a centerfire and we may have to rethink what we are seeing. Not that what we are seeing is wrong. Just the reason why? Jon
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