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Post by Typical171 on Jul 23, 2014 8:47:13 GMT -5
I been FF the 300 (annealed) TSX for some time now and have the Swing Lock die set at .9 ( .0009 smaller from bore size?) this gives me a slight thumb press to start the bullet down the Pacnor barrel. I always mark the bullet coming out of the die and index it in the barrel the same everytime. I recently purchase some 310 APB and started sizing them. I started with the same setting as the annealed TSX, but this was way too tight in the bore. After some trial and error I ended up with a die setting at 1.7 (.0017 ?) to get the same thumb pressure to start the bullet. Now the APB loads all the way down the bore the same as the TSX but with what I consider a lot of difference on the setting of the die. I know the annealed TSX is solid copper and the APB is lead core, but the APB require a smaller setting on the die to get the same loading pressure??? Does anyone know what could be causing this?
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Post by edge on Jul 23, 2014 9:11:45 GMT -5
The bullet jacket has a lot of memory and you are "kind of" sizing it in the wrong direction.
If the bullet were undersized and you wanted it to get larger you would press it into the die and it would spring back smaller than the die diameter.
edge.
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Post by linebaugh on Jul 23, 2014 9:37:14 GMT -5
Forgive my virginity on the FF questions but do the markings actually correlate to thousands of an inch as described?
I "assumed" the markings were simply a method of hitting the same setting repeatedly. I realize it technically doesn't matter but if the numbers do correlate to a measurement in thousandths I'm both surprised and impressed.
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Post by Typical171 on Jul 23, 2014 9:56:27 GMT -5
The bullet jacket has a lot of memory and you are "kind of" sizing it in the wrong direction. If the bullet were undersized and you wanted it to get larger you would press it into the die and it would spring back smaller than the die diameter. edge. I'm a little confused but I think what your saying is the APB has more spring back then the TSX that why it is requiring to be initially sized smaller then it springs back some to retain the same fit as the TSX? |
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Post by Typical171 on Jul 23, 2014 10:05:18 GMT -5
Forgive my virginity on the FF questions but do the markings actually correlate to thousands of an inch as described? I "assumed" the markings were simply a method of hitting the same setting repeatedly. I realize it technically doesn't matter but if the numbers do correlate to a measurement in thousandths I'm both surprised and impressed. No, I'm not 100% sure, but I think each tick mark represents 1/10 of one thousands of an inch (.0001) the die moves in a vertical plane. Not necessarily in diameter. If I had a set of plug gages I could then say for sure. But like you said, it really doesn't matter. |
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Post by foxgrape on Jul 23, 2014 11:12:03 GMT -5
Regarding accuracy of adjustment, it is exceedingly easy and precise using the allen wrench provided. The die face as shown below is graduated for reference and the value of each graduation is slightly more than .0001 In. on the diameter. By adjusting between graduations, the shooter can easily adjust the size of bullets by even less than .00005 In. ( 50 millionths ) on the diameter.
The above is a cut and paste from Swing Lock web page.
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Post by onecardchuck on Jul 23, 2014 11:43:51 GMT -5
Typical171,
Yes that is what edge is saying you are getting more spring back from the APB than the TSX.
FYI, how I get around the spring back problem using any bullet including the TSX and other jacketed lead core bullets is
very simple especially if you index bullets to your barrel already. I can get any bullet to size on my dye using one
setting and give me the exact same fit in my bore and the bullets will overall come out more consistently formed when
done. In order to index the bullet to your bore you must already have the bullet and bore marked. Now if you also mark
your dye you can do this simple procedure. Run the bullet through your FF dye three times and then let it sit over
night on the bench and then run it again three more times the next day through your dye.
What you will experience if you do this is the following:
1) You will use a larger die setting than you currently are for the TSX's.
2) You will get the formed bullets to be more consistent bullet to bullet.
3) You can with enough trial and error get the bullet to fit the bore almost perfectly.
Number three can be proven by simply taking your existing sized bullets and put one in your bore and then in a dark room shine a light down the bore and look through the other end of your bore. Then do this same trick with a bullet you have run through the die multiple times on a better dye setting to match your bore as I have stated above. What you will see a lot less light coming from around the bullet than the way you are currently sizing bullets.
This procedure has significantly tightened up my groups with the TSX so much so that I do not shoot lead core bullets anymore. Mind you all my testing has been without annealing the TSX bullets, but I will be annealing some soon for a range session to compare against unannealed bullets. You can do a search for my range sessions that I have posted for proof.
Hope this helps
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Post by Typical171 on Jul 23, 2014 12:22:35 GMT -5
Typical171, Yes that is what edge is saying you are getting more spring back from the APB than the TSX. FYI, how I get around the spring back problem using any bullet including the TSX and other jacketed lead core bullets is very simple especially if you index bullets to your barrel already. I can get any bullet to size on my dye using one setting and give me the exact same fit in my bore and the bullets will overall come out more consistently formed when done. In order to index the bullet to your bore you must already have the bullet and bore marked. Now if you also mark your dye you can do this simple procedure. Run the bullet through your FF dye three times and then let it sit over night on the bench and then run it again three more times the next day through your dye. What you will experience if you do this is the following: 1) You will use a larger die setting than you currently are for the TSX's. 2) You will get the formed bullets to be more consistent bullet to bullet. 3) You can with enough trial and error get the bullet to fit the bore almost perfectly. Number three can be proven by simply taking your existing sized bullets and put one in your bore and then in a dark room shine a light down the bore and look through the other end of your bore. Then do this same trick with a bullet you have run through the die multiple times on a better dye setting to match your bore as I have stated above. What you will see a lot less light coming from around the bullet than the way you are currently sizing bullets. This procedure has significantly tightened up my groups with the TSX so much so that I do not shoot lead core bullets anymore. Mind you all my testing has been without annealing the TSX bullets, but I will be annealing some soon for a range session to compare against unannealed bullets. You can do a search for my range sessions that I have posted for proof. Hope this helps I have done this in the past and your right the die setting is larger. The one thing that concerned me about this technique was trying to line up the lands perfectly to a witness mark thus if not perfect, you would be widening the land groove creating more gap around the lands. I did not however use a light to physically see gap. But maybe a little wider land groove and more concentric bullet is more consistent then just once through the die? |
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Post by onecardchuck on Jul 23, 2014 14:31:54 GMT -5
Typical171, Yes that is what edge is saying you are getting more spring back from the APB than the TSX. FYI, how I get around the spring back problem using any bullet including the TSX and other jacketed lead core bullets is very simple especially if you index bullets to your barrel already. I can get any bullet to size on my dye using one setting and give me the exact same fit in my bore and the bullets will overall come out more consistently formed when done. In order to index the bullet to your bore you must already have the bullet and bore marked. Now if you also mark your dye you can do this simple procedure. Run the bullet through your FF dye three times and then let it sit over night on the bench and then run it again three more times the next day through your dye. What you will experience if you do this is the following: 1) You will use a larger die setting than you currently are for the TSX's. 2) You will get the formed bullets to be more consistent bullet to bullet. 3) You can with enough trial and error get the bullet to fit the bore almost perfectly. Number three can be proven by simply taking your existing sized bullets and put one in your bore and then in a dark room shine a light down the bore and look through the other end of your bore. Then do this same trick with a bullet you have run through the die multiple times on a better dye setting to match your bore as I have stated above. What you will see a lot less light coming from around the bullet than the way you are currently sizing bullets. This procedure has significantly tightened up my groups with the TSX so much so that I do not shoot lead core bullets anymore. Mind you all my testing has been without annealing the TSX bullets, but I will be annealing some soon for a range session to compare against unannealed bullets. You can do a search for my range sessions that I have posted for proof. Hope this helps I have done this in the past and your right the die setting is larger. The one thing that concerned me about this technique was trying to line up the lands perfectly to a witness mark thus if not perfect, you would be widening the land groove creating more gap around the lands. I did not however use a light to physically see gap. But maybe a little wider land groove and more concentric bullet is more consistent then just once through the die? Yes that can be a problem especially if your marks on the bullet and die are wide rather than fine. What I do to alleviate as much of this as possible is I use a crimp tool to put a fine line on the bullet just above the ogive and a hack saw for a fine line on the dye. Using a good light I can get the bullet and dye almost perfectly aligned every time. I have not noticed any widening of the lands and/or shrinking of the groves on the bullet doing it this way. Hope this helps, |
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Post by dannoboone on Jul 23, 2014 16:48:51 GMT -5
One nice thing I noticed right away after getting an
arbor press is that a person can get the bullet to
go through the die EXACTLY the same, whereby there is
no widening of the lands.
With the arbor press, the die is positioned upside
down. I mark the bottom of the bullet and line it up
with a line on the die. When aligning both for the
second time through the die, gravity pulls the bullet
further "down" into the die because it is already
partially formed and already has lands formed into it.
If a bullet is turned slightly off the correct path
and does not fall further down into the die than the
first pass, I use a soda straw, push the bullet up
slightly and rotate it until it does "fall" deeper
into the die. In this manner, bullets go through the
die in the exact same position time after time.
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Post by cowhunter on Jul 23, 2014 21:50:15 GMT -5
I'm questioning my own practice. I full-form all my bullets, and lately only shoot 310 Luke specials in the ,45s and all- copper in the .416s. I only size bullets once, but onecardcjick is the master of full forming and I like the description of what he does. I haven't noticed inconsistency, but that may be because I haven't used bullets sized three times. Is there any way to quantify the amount of inconsistency or reduction of accuracy if you only size once? Maybe the question should be whether onecardchick thinks he could still have reasonable accuracy just sizing once to a size that fits just right? By the way, I have to change my die settings for each bullet. I just assumed there was nothing you could do about that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 22:05:20 GMT -5
Sometimes, using different powders will do the same thing.
A dirty powder will cause you to size your bullets smaller than you normally would than with a clean burning powder.
Because there is more residue left in the bore with some powders versus others.
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Post by rangeball on Jul 24, 2014 8:39:14 GMT -5
Chuck, is the jist of what you are saying that once you find the die setting that works best, you leave it there and size all bullets on that setting, running them through multiple times until the fit with the same loading resistance?
At this point is accuracy of similar weight bullets of different types comparable?
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Post by onecardchuck on Jul 24, 2014 8:49:24 GMT -5
I'm questioning my own practice. I full-form all my bullets, and lately only shoot 310 Luke specials in the ,45s and all- copper in the .416s. I only size bullets once, but onecardcjick is the master of full forming and I like the description of what he does. I haven't noticed inconsistency, but that may be because I haven't used bullets sized three times. Is there any way to quantify the amount of inconsistency or reduction of accuracy if you only size once? Maybe the question should be whether onecardchick thinks he could still have reasonable accuracy just sizing once to a size that fits just right? By the way, I have to change my die settings for each bullet. I just assumed there was nothing you could do about that. cowhunter my friend thank you very much for the kind words but I still don't hold a candle to Richard. Below is a Range report I did to compare running the bullet through the die three times versus 6 times. What you can see is not much difference at 100 but a significant difference at 200. dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/14211/range-full-sabotless-nirvana-barnesSo I guess my answer would be if you are going to only ever be shooting under 200 I got very good accuracy when only running the bullets through the dye once as can be seen in the range reports below: dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/11127/range-rpt-die-bullets-holesdougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/11764/range-rep-458-die-outHowever, if you are going to be shooting 200 and beyond my procedure really helps to tighten up the groups. Hope this helps, |
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Post by onecardchuck on Jul 24, 2014 8:55:34 GMT -5
Chuck, is the jist of what you are saying that once you find the die setting that works best, you leave it there and size all bullets on that setting, running them through multiple times until the fit with the same loading resistance? At this point is accuracy of similar weight bullets of different types comparable? Mike yes but I have only ever tried it with 300 grain bullets. Also, note the dye setting that works best is the one that when I use this setting I can get the bullet to load all be it with two hands and body weight so it is field loadable and the next half a mark setting requires the bullet to be hammered down the bore. Also as soon as I get my barrel back from Pacnor for rework I will be try some annealed TSX's, unannealed TSX's, and the Noslers again only at 200 as my results at 100 do not tell me anything. Hope this helps, |
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Post by rangeball on Jul 24, 2014 9:04:44 GMT -5
Thanks.
The bullets after 6 passes are still a stiff two handed push down?
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Post by onecardchuck on Jul 24, 2014 9:55:46 GMT -5
Thanks. The bullets after 6 passes are still a stiff two handed push down? Yes the bullet even after 6 passes through the dye is a two handed load due to powder residue in the bore, and the bullet is as perfectly sized to the lands and groves as I can make it which creates a bit of resistance when loading. I know this because when I put a full formed bullet in the barrel and in a dark room shine a light down one end of the bore and look through the other end I can see little to no light coming from around the bullet. So your next question is why do you size it so perfectly to the bore. Because in my case I am shooting a solid copper TSX bullet and don't know if there is a booster/load out there that can get them to objurate much in a muzzy. Unlike when using a smooth dye you need the fast booster to get the bullet to objurate into the lands, and it is highly unlikely you are going to get a solid bullet to shoot well using the smooth dye. With that said that does not mean you cannot full form a bullet that is much easier to load and will allow light around it when in the bore and then hit it with a fast booster to get it to objurate even further as long as it is not a solid. I have chosen to go the solid copper TSX route for now. What the future holds who knows, but for sure there are many things yet to try. Hope this helps, |
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Post by rangeball on Jul 24, 2014 11:26:04 GMT -5
Makes total sense Chuck. Thanks a bunch.
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Post by Richard on Jul 24, 2014 13:31:27 GMT -5
How the heck did I get involved in this Chuck? I don't even own a FF die and based on the distances I shoot (300 yards or less) and probably the distance 90% of the hunters on this board shoot, I cannot see the need for full forming? I will concede that maybe shooting beyond 300 yards there might be an advantage to full forming but for most, I just think it complicates the loading procedure. I do notice that cup and core bullets that I have smooth sized and have sat in my loading box for some time, do expand! I just went thru those 250 SST's I shot on Tuesday and found they had to be re-sized in order to go down the bore................Put the right duplex behind them which gets them to expand or obturate which allows them to grab onto the rifling and they will flat out shoot with low ES's.
Richard
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Post by rangeball on Jul 24, 2014 13:49:48 GMT -5
Richard, do you have similar success smooth sized with solid coppers like Chuck is shooting?
I wonder if you ran those SSTs through your smooth die as many times as Chuck stated above if they would have expanded over time?
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Post by onecardchuck on Jul 24, 2014 14:09:46 GMT -5
How the heck did I get involved in this Chuck? I don't even own a FF die and based on the distances I shoot (300 yards or less) and probably the distance 90% of the hunters on this board shoot, I cannot see the need for full forming? I will concede that maybe shooting beyond 300 yards there might be an advantage to full forming but for most, I just think it complicates the loading procedure. I do notice that cup and core bullets that I have smooth sized and have sat in my loading box for some time, do expand! I just went thru those 250 SST's I shot on Tuesday and found they had to be re-sized in order to go down the bore................Put the right duplex behind them which gets them to expand or obturate which allows them to grab onto the rifling and they will flat out shoot with low ES's. Richard Richard come on your a celebrity on here you are involved in everything.  I do not disagree with you around the great load development you have done that non solid bullets can be shot equally as well either smooth or full formed and even that full forming may be a bit of overkill except for what you stated for over 300 yards. Depending on the end user and there designation of sabotless experimenting and usage would determine there choice. So take me for example what I want to do is shoot solids out to 300 maybe once in a blue moon slightly beyond and in this one instance I would have to say the benefit falls to full forming over smooth dye with solid bullets. Hope you are getting sometime to visit the grand kids in NJ we will have to hook up there sometime as that is where I grew up and often travel back there. Always good to hear your point of view and read your range reports keep up the great work. |
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Post by TGinPA on Jul 24, 2014 14:14:46 GMT -5
+1 on what Richard said.
In the 2 45cal barrels I use for target shooting, without a lot of effort, sub MOA 3 shot 100yd groups can fairly consistently be seen with Barnes 200-300gr solids shot sabotless, either smooth formed or knurled, depending on bullet-bore fit. To obtain optimal grouping precision sabotless with Barnes solids, duplexing is probably necessary without full-forming. It seems helpful(at least for me) to adjust peak pressures (to~45kpsi), rise times (to <120msc) and velocities (>2600fps for 200-250gr bullets). Further, annealing may sometimes be useful (IMO) But, as always YMMV.
TG
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Post by onecardchuck on Jul 24, 2014 15:13:12 GMT -5
+1 on what Richard said. In the 2 45cal barrels I use for target shooting, without a lot of effort, sub MOA 3 shot 100yd groups can fairly consistently be seen with Barnes 200-300gr solids shot sabotless, either smooth formed or knurled, depending on bullet-bore fit. To obtain optimal grouping precision sabotless with Barnes solids, duplexing is probably necessary without full-forming. It seems helpful(at least for me) to adjust peak pressures (to~45kpsi), rise times (to <120msc) and velocities (>2600fps for 200-250gr bullets). Further, annealing may sometimes be useful (IMO) But, as always YMMV. TG TGinPA, Very good info and very cool. I am glad to see you are getting the solids to shoot using the smooth dye. To be honest I am not surprised you are getting good groups out to 100. The key here is out to 100. Have you tried to shoot the solids out to 200 and 300. I am pretty sure you will get your groups to open up, but I would be tickled pink if you prove me wrong. I totally agree with your above statement around duplex, peak pressures, rise times, and velocities. One more note is all of my testing has been done with no annealing and I plan on adding that to the mix when I get my barrel back from pacnor. As always good to hear your point of view and keep up the great and valuable work with pressure traces. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 17:15:41 GMT -5
the key to full forming bullets for absolute consistency is to check every single one in the bore (unplugged) after sizing. I have settled on two passes through the die for the match hunters or the APB. come hunting season you will have no suprises if you do this.
I normally size a box at a time so its not a big deal to check them through the bore.
of four different barrels, Pacnor, Mcgowen, Brux and Krieger, only the pacnor needs to be indexed, the others I can tell no difference in loading resistance if unindexed.
as far as indexing in the die. a fine line on the bullet shoulder and the base of the die works well with some practice in a regular press. I have a rockchucker and it works fine..
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 17:37:54 GMT -5
Great thread full of great info all!
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Post by Typical171 on Jul 24, 2014 20:40:11 GMT -5
onecardchuck,
With sizing one time through the die (annealed TSX) at a -.9 setting I have shot many sub inch groups with the 300 TSX at 100 yds. but I have to admit down range from there the groups were not as good as I would have hope for. So Last night I took one that I sized one pass at -.9 setting and tried you lighting technique and sure enough I was surprised to see that much light around the bullet, so I started playing with multiple passes (6) and ended up at -.75 on the die for the same "fit" as the single pass setting. Shoved it down the bore and light checked the fit and sure enough no light. I will now check these at 200, 300 and 400yds. to see if it help the groups. I have no doubt now that it will. Thank you for the tip. I can never get enough of this stuff!!!
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Post by onecardchuck on Jul 24, 2014 21:12:00 GMT -5
HillBill +1 on the rockchucker it also works great for me. Typical171 glad to help and I am sure now that you have seen the light or for that matter don't see the light around the bullet You will be able to tighten up those long range shots with the TSX of that I am sure. Good luck and keep us posted. |
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Post by edge on Jul 25, 2014 8:05:17 GMT -5
SNIP. I will concede that maybe shooting beyond 300 yards there might be an advantage to full forming but for most, I just think it complicates the loading procedure. SNIP. Do you notice any seasonality / warm cold barrel to your sizing? In other words can you use the same size in 90 degree weather as 25 degrees, or does the first shot load the same as the fifth as the barrel warms up? IMO, that could potentially be an advantage for FF sizing since the bullet must rotate and can't just slide down the bore. edge. |
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Post by Richard on Jul 25, 2014 13:27:40 GMT -5
Rangeball: Yes I did. I just don't have any more to play with? Bigmoose had given me some 290 TSX's a while back and they shot very well with one of Clays duplex loads. The first time I shot them was with a 4759 duplex and they keyholed! I guess I am waiting on someone to have a sale to try them again. Remember, I have not dire need for a hunting load to kill Grizzly bears. I shoot for the fun and camaraderie of it. I don't need to spend over a buck a pop for that. This is called living within your means and not having to "keep up with the Jones!" My most concerted efforts are with the long range bench rest game.
Oh, and I ALWAYS run my bullets THREE times thru the smooth die and always turn them slightly.
Onecard............That would be great but I am mostly only getting up there once a year. Maybe since we are presently down to only one dog, we will get up more often.
Edge...........for me, it is hard to tell about the warm/cold thing since our shooting situation is much different from most. And, since we shoot year round, temperature changes are not subtle.
Richard
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 17:54:33 GMT -5
edge
I see no noticeable difference in temp swings and I have shot a good many different FF guns in the last three years.. I have built many land riders, 50+ and a good number of FF guns as well, I tend to like the FF for my own use, mainly because I don't have to use a wad but accuracy has always been good on every one so far. Many of the FF barrels have been pistol size bores (most). the down side to FF is experience is needed to get it right, not as simple as the land rider barrels are. But there is nothing magic about it, just takes some practice..
annealing the Barnes or cutting edge bullets makes a huge difference in sizing, I would say it cuts the force needed in half..
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