Swing-Lock Adjustable Bullet Sizing Die

[killitgrillit]

How much barrel does Tom need 1-2"

[dougedwards]

Oct 19, 2010 18:21:34 GMT -5 killitgrillit said:

How much barrel does Tom need 1-2"

He lopped one inch from mine.

Doug

[killitgrillit]

Oct 19, 2010 18:26:58 GMT -5 dougedwards said:

Oct 19, 2010 18:21:34 GMT -5 killitgrillit said:

How much barrel does Tom need 1-2"

He lopped one inch from mine.

Doug

10-4 Thx Doug
1 inch it is.

[swinglock]

Harley,

Guys want these rifles mostly for extreme long range hunting. Or just because they want a really HOT ( Star Trek ) rifle that goes where nothing has ever gone before...!

Bigmoose,

I'll get some pics after more progress on the load work.

Killitgrillit,

A barrel drop for the full form die of 1 In. is just adequate but more is better. If you could get a drop of 2" then the remaining piece can be used to preset the die very close to a final setting.


Tom

[rbinar]

Oct 17, 2010 11:00:44 GMT -5 swinglock said:

Dave W.

On the .45 cal. Pac Nor one size fits all question. That's a good one. Maybe & maybe not. Much will depend upon the tooling used to make the barrel. Pac-Nor barrels are button rifled. The button used is what really produces most of the barrels bore geometry. The geometric dimensions of the button are a direct transfer into a barrels bore. If we knew that Pac Nor always used the same button for .45 cal. barrels

Pac-Nors seem to come in slightly different barrel diameters for the twist. I've even seen slight differences in the same twist. Sorry guys this makes sizing a excercise unique to the barrel.

For those wanting to size .458 bullets don't forget the Barnes Original 400 grain semi-spitzer. If you are going to get kicked into next year, you may as well do it with the best bullet.

The 400 is the best aerodynamic choice and will work on Blue Whale terminally if you need it.

[deadeye]

swinglock & rbinar- you have answered my silent questions/thx

[lwh723]

Oct 19, 2010 17:46:28 GMT -5 tar12 said:

I sent my .45 barrel to Pac-Nor yesterday to get it cut down and recrowned and will have a barrel drop from this.BTW,Pac-Nor will cut and recrown any barrel bought from them for a outstanding fee of only $25 bucks!

That's great to know!

[bigmoose]

Brother Rick,

Will it penetrate like the 400gr Barnes Buster Bullet?

[killitgrillit]

Talked to Penny today and she is going to give me a 2"lapped drop from my barrel
Thx Tom

[rbinar]

Oct 20, 2010 8:19:28 GMT -5 bigmoose said:

Brother Rick,

Will it penetrate like the 400gr Barnes Buster Bullet?

I can't say for certain but I wouldn't be afraid to use it on Grizzly, if that's what you mean?

[bigmoose]

Rick,
Thanks for the answer.
I trust you and yours are well, and living in the land of fruit and honey

[dougedwards]

Sometimes old notions die hard or maybe I am just hard headed. I reported earlier that I was experiencing some "spring back" on some copper plated bullets after running them through the full form sizing die. My problem was that I was attempting to size bullets to an exact dimension so that they would be very tight pushing down. In that attempt I recognized that some bullets were close to impossible to load.

Then it hit me. These bullets sized with the full form die require less chamber pressure for accuracy because they don't have the greater requirement for obturation than those of bullets that are not filling the grooves of the rifling. I then resized 250 gr Hornady SSTs so that they would load very loosely. I was able to load with only my middle, index finger and thumb to apply pressure to the loading rod with no problem. It felt like something was wrong. On my first shot I was expecting a misfire but it went BOOM. 2 1/2" directly above the target dot. My second loaded the same and touched the first shot. The third loaded just a little tighter and landed 3/4" to the left of the first two. Eventually seven shots developed a 1.5" group which is not spectacular I know but to make this discovery was a break through for me. I always have opportunity to tweek this load.

Sometimes I think I know something to the point that I don't question it. Good thing we have folks on this board who aren't afraid to ask questions because I seem to learn a little something from every one.

Doug

[deadon]

Looks like you on a roll Doug ;D Trust me, I will ask enough dumb question to cover for a bunch of folks Rusty

[Harley]

Well, this thread has meandered and generated a lot of good additional information since I posted my first test results with the smooth version of the Swing-Lock die. Yesterday, I tried to build on the results of my previous shooting.

I was completely satisfied with the half-inch group generated by that first test. This time I wanted to tweak the between shot patching routine. I had excellent results using four patches, but wanted to work toward a two-patch sequence.

Notice that there aren't any targets; I have nothing to show.

Based on last week's results, I sized my first fouling XTP a little larger in order to be certain it wasn't too loose to fire in the clean bore. It went down easily and did fire.

I had my press and the Swing-Lock die with me, C-clamped to my shooting bench. So, for the second fouling shot (remember that my rifle requires six) I sized the next XTP a little SMALLER, taking into account both the fouling from the first shot and the new 2-patch routine. Bad news: I barely was able to force that bullet down the bore.

After shooting it, I sized the next XTP even smaller; it loaded with the same amount of excessive pressure as the bullet before it. So, I sized the fourth bullet even smaller; this time, the force needed to seat it was even greater. For my fifth fouling shot, I dialed in a much larger amount of diameter constriction. This time I had to use a rubber mallet and short lengths of ramrod to seat the bullet. After firing it, I quit.

DISCUSSION:

1. The amount of constriction I dialed into the die was totally arbitrary; maybe I could have eventually found a setting that would have resulted in a good seal and reasonable ramrod pressure to seat.

2. Even though I was reducing the bullet diameter each time, the pressure to seat was increasing. To me, that indicates that two patches between shots were not enough to stabilize the amount of fouling.

3. Bear in mind SW's contention, recently posted, that trying to size smooth bullets for a pressure fit is an exercise in futility. He believes there will be shot to shot variability in muzzle velocity as well as variable difficulty in seating. He concludes that knurling is the only reliable method to finish a resized bullet for the .45 Savage.

4. My previous successes with resizing, then knurling support SW's point of view.

CONCLUSIONS:

1. I'm not going to try any further to develop a one pass resizing method using the smooth Swing-Lock die. I don't believe it will ever be a reliable operation because of the difficulty in stabilizing fouling build-up as well as the unpredictable nature of bullet diameter "recovery". (Even though the previous 4-patch routine was successful, I don't think I could trust it over time.)

2. The Adjustable Smooth Swing-Lock Die should make a fine "check" die for a final pass of a previously sized and knurled bullet.

3. I'd like to know more about the Swing-Lock rifled die that is custom fitted for a particular rifle.

Harley

[Harley]

DougEdwards, in reference to your reply #101, above; two questions:

1. When you decreased the size of the bullet, thus decreasing the amount of pressure required to seat, did you have a decrease in muzzle velocity? If so, how significant?

2. What, if any, between shot patching routine did you use for those seven shots you reported in this reply?

Thanks,

Harley

[deadeye]

harley,what exact size is your "check die", i assume its very near .4505 & assume it only takes off the high knurling spots? if that die comes up for sale i may purchase it for a check die.let me know. im also very curious about the full die but dont want to buy 3 & cut off a drop's on my 3 pac's.im getting very consistently .5-.7moa & relealize where im playing the wind is the biggest factor,not possibly reducing into the .2-.3's,but i love tinkering & losing $money$ for a good cause. ;D i would definetly be interested in someone who has a .458 pac w/full die 1/22twist to possibly send approx 25 parkers for resizing experimenting with my 3 on fit & consistency & such

[Harley]

Deadeye, I'm not sure how to answer your question: I have the Swing-Lock die set to .4500" to one-pass size the new, smooth Parker's. I'm not sure what its size would be to check size a knurled bullet, but would probably still be close to .4500".

Harley

[deadeye]

im' talkin about your old lee check die if my memory is correct, i thought you mentioned resizing on a .448 die,then knurled to approx .4505 then run through check die,correct me if im wrong,thx

[swinglock]

Harley,

In reading your post I am bothered by the fact that those thin skinned XTPs did not seem to size smaller as you adjusted the die smaller. It makes me think that the compression adjustment ring may have cracked. Some time back in a full form die for sizing .416 bullets, I cracked the compression adjustment ring trying to resize some solid brass turned bullets which were not annealed. After cracking that ring, the die would no longer function. Function was restored by replacing the compression ring. In your die for sizing much softer bullets by only a small amount it seems unusual to have breakage of the compression adjustment ring.

It sounds like you may want to do a few more checks to see if the die is actually working. If bullets do not size down with each small adjustment then the reason is that the compression ring has cracked.

Please return the die if it does not adjust and I will repair free of charge.

Tom

[Jon]

Tom Your the man and will stand behind everything this is not the usual today. Thank you for being you.

[Harley]

Thanks, Tom. I'll do the checks on the die by adjusting it coarsely enough that my digital caliper can measure any changes.

BTW, could I see any cracks that might be in the compression ring if I disassembled the die, myself?

Harley

[Harley]

Okay, Deadeye, I understand, now; yes, you are correct as to the size of the Lee dies.

Harley

[swinglock]

Lloyd, you can screw out and remove the adjustment / compression ring for examination.

My guess is that if there is a crack, you will not be able to see it because it will be a very clean break which closes when pressure is removed. That is how it was when that .416 die broke. The only thing that told me it was cracked was that it would no longer adjust.

Tom

[Harley]

Okay; I've now run a series of resizing tests and am satisfied that the die is performing properly.

That means my between shot patching routine wasn't adequate to counter the accumulation of firing residue, resulting in bullets that were progressively harder to seat. Note that this has never been a problem when using knurled bullets.

I'm going to abandon trying for a one pass bullet sizing operation with new bullets; instead, I'll next run new Parker's through my Lee .448" die, which will tighten the original .451" diameter to ~.4495", then knurl close to .4520", followed by a pass through the Swing-Lock die set to check the bullets at .450+".

The challenge with that final step is that the Swing-Lock die is adjusted so finely that my caliper can't tell the difference between a Swing-Lock setting of 4,5 or even 6. It's just going to be trial and error. If I ever do adjust it so that bullets load properly in a fouled barrel I should be able to tweak the obturation for the maximum MV and tightest groups.

I'll take the die to the field with me and see what happens.

Harley

[edge]

Harley, what type of wad do you use under the bullet?

Is your fouling uniform from muzzle to breech or is it almost all within an inch or so of the powder?

edge.

[Harley]

Edge, I use a dry wool wad.

I never thought about my fouling distribution, but if I had to guess I'd say it was uniform from muzzle to breech because there's no point in the seating push that is either easier or more difficult than any other.

What are you thinking?

Harley

[edge]

Just curious
I use a fiber wad impregnated with natural lube. I don't advocate for this, only that this is what I have used for many years.

Have you used a copper cleaner and if so does it show a lot of copper...or is it just crud?

Have you tried a fiber wad and is there any difference?

I guess I am wondering why there is so much fouling with a sabotless load. I would have expected the bullet to obturate and scrape away most of the previous fouling.

What is your normal load?

edge.

PS have you ever found an intact wool wad after shooting a load?

[Harley]

Edge, I do remember your saying in the past that you used the wet fiber wad. I tried the veggie wad when I was first developing my duplex load, but hit on my finalized load when testing the dry wool wad: 12/47 SR4759/A2015 with the CCIM and 275 Parker BE. This has been everything I could have hoped for in the way of extreme long range accuracy and consistency. I got started with the Swing-Lock die just out of boredom and curiosity.

I do use a copper cleaner: Bore-Tech Eliminator; the initial patches are always heavily copper fouled.

You say, "I guess I am wondering why there is so much fouling with a sabotless load." I don't know that there is SO much fouling as opposed to a NORMAL amount of fouling. It was never a problem with a between shot routine of one wet and one dry patch UNTIL I tried resizing the Parker's with the Swing-Lock die and no knurling.

No, I've never looked for a fired wool wad; I'd never find one in the tall grass if I did try.

I appreciate your interest.

Harley

[Dave W]

First I apologize for posting targets in your thread Harley.

First group was from last week after a test for vent liner life with a different load. Shots #48-54 at 200yds with the 250 FTX, roughly 2.375", not great but not bad after 50 shots.
Sized to fit my barrel with one of Tom's dies, no knurling. Other than the herky, jerky resistance which comes with no swabbing, seating resistance was comparable each load even after 50 shots. Not even close to having a bullet stick at some point in the barrel!


Same load, last night after a cleaning and 6 foulers at 200yds.


JMO If you get the size right, knurling is not needed. I see no reason why you could not better these results with a Parker. I know I have.

I have shot 5 shot duplex groups with single digit ES'es with un-knurled bullets so I don't see how that would be possible if copper and powder fouling was affecting seating resistance to some wide degree.

One other point, after 54 shots on the barrel there was hardly any copper on the cleaning patches and the other load that comprised 47 of the shots was a higher pressure load.

JMO based on my experiences.

[Harley]

Thanks, DaveW. Now, I'm really lost.

You ARE using the smooth die, right? Not the full form?

You're starting with a new bullet, then making one pass, only, through the die?

Do you patch between shots?

I just plain don't understand how there could be so little copper on your patches. I guess I COULD have very little copper if I used a poor copper cleaner or loaded a very loose bullet. You must not be doing either of those, though, because your groups are so good.

Harley