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Post by Harley on Oct 10, 2010 12:29:50 GMT -5
Swing-Lock (Tom Post) smooth adjustable bullet sizing die: Price: $150 delivered to the lower 48. Payment is by check. Delivery time: Approximately one business week. Die components plus hex wrench for adjustment.  Die graduations.  Die in press.  Bullet on ram before resizing.  Resized bullet emerging from press.  A recommended bullet lube.  I was unable to use the die in my arbor press because the height of the die plus extended ram exceeded its capacity. It did fit perfectly in a surplus RCBS Rockchucker, seen in the above illustrations. I'll begin bullet sizing and fitting to my .45 Pac-Nor within the next few days and will post all my results. Harley |
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Post by bigmoose on Oct 10, 2010 14:37:47 GMT -5
While I don't understand how it works, it sure is very interesting. Is there a range of adjustments?
.45 cal. only
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Post by dave d. on Oct 10, 2010 15:08:28 GMT -5
:)Lloyd very nice detailed post can't wait to hear how it works for you. Can we get you to shoot @ 500 again?
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Post by Harley on Oct 10, 2010 17:23:41 GMT -5
Bigmoose, the die is an engineering innovation, as witness the "patent pending" notice on it. It does have a complete range of adjustments (note the hex wrench in the first picture, above). I don't know how many different variations Tom makes, but there are more than this one.
DaveD, I'm working on my first report, now. I think 24 hours is probably long enough to wait for measurable bullet diameter recovery after resizing, but would like an opinion on that.
As for 500 yard shooting, as I noted at the time, it is just a "parlor trick"; the 5.43" I shot only slightly makes me ambitious to shoot an even 5" at 500 yads. Truth to tell, though, all the variables have to line up and the shooting gods have to be smiling. Allowable cross winds are zero miles per hour. I happened to pass my improvised shooting bench, yesterday, when deer hunting and looked down range. As Shooter said, that's a loooooooooooooong way.
Harley
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Post by bigmoose on Oct 10, 2010 18:30:32 GMT -5
Harley,
Long is the understatement of the year, I would never try it, not doubt I would have egg on my face, and would have to bury the results.
Hope, you do it again, Just imagine, Savage being able to say, MOA at 500 yards, they should make you a special rifle, call it the Harley Special.
Marty
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Post by Richard on Oct 10, 2010 19:18:36 GMT -5
Harley...........nice write up and clear photos. What range of adjustment did you get with yours? One of these days, Herman and myself might just try 500 yds. I have gotten permission to shoot at a private air strip about 15 mi. from my house. Just need to make the time and effort to get set up!  Richard |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2010 19:24:18 GMT -5
Harley, my friend who has a Swinglock also has one of those dies and he claims it works great. a little pricey as well.....Tom does some excellent work
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Post by rexxer on Oct 10, 2010 21:36:28 GMT -5
Nice write up Lloyd! I'm curious to see your results from skipping the knurling process.I messed with the perfect sized bullet last year but couldn't convince myself that it was better than a knurled then re-sized bullet.It seemed a slightly larger knurled diam. bullet could be pushed down the bore due to less surface area.It seems if I could start a knurled bullet with the short starter I could always get the bullet seated,not always true with my non-knurled bullets. I do admit that I tried for a tighter fitting bullet than most shooters would.
I have always wonder if knurling aids in loading a semi-fouled barrel.Is it possible for powder residue to be pushed into the space between the diamonds instead of being ironed into the lands?
The Swing-Lock sizer does look like it would offer minute adjustments making it great for the perfect tune or changing bullets. Good luck and keep us posted!
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Post by Harley on Oct 10, 2010 22:54:56 GMT -5
Richard, the nominal adjustment range is 40 x .00013" (there are 40 graduation marks and each is a .00013" adjustment). I don't know, in an absolute sense, what might be the actual range of resized bullet diameters. I could open the die completely, size a bullet, dial down 40 marks and resize another one, but see no reason to do that.
Good luck with your 500 yard shooting; as I originally posted, anyone with a MOA-capable rifle and reasonable competency can duplicate or better what I did. Mostly it depends on the wind.
Hillbill, I can already tell that the die is phenomenal in its ability to fine-tune bullet diameter. Testing will tell me if that translates into a true one-pass reliable operation.
Rex, where have you been, man? Every time I load my ML I'm grateful to you for your short starter.
Please follow my new thread as I attempt to answer the same questions you've raised.
Harley
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Post by Jon on Oct 11, 2010 3:57:59 GMT -5
Harley. Mine is slightly different then yours. Mine being for a 6.5 and I sent him a barrel drop so it actually imprints the bullet. The die was done right away but he had to wait for carbon fiber for a ram rod for same your very right fantastic work and great attention to detail.
Jon
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Post by dougedwards on Oct 11, 2010 5:54:59 GMT -5
My full form die looks just like the one that Harley posted in a the pic but does forge the rifling into the bullet and was formed from a 1" barrel drop. I paid $175 for mine because the crown had to be remanufactured after cutting off the end of the barrel to produce the die.
Doug
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Post by Harley on Oct 11, 2010 13:37:32 GMT -5
Yesterday, I sized the following bullets in the Post die:
Parker 275 BE (.451" diameter). New bullet.
Parker 275 BE previously resized with Lee die and subsequently heavily knurled.
Hornady 300 XTB (.452" diameter). New bullet.
All bullets were sized to .4500". This required a nominal die setting of #8 for both the Parkers. The Hornady XTB required a #11 die setting to achieve the .4500" diameter. This calculates (3x.00013") as a difference in die diameter of .00039", which still registered as .4500 on my Mitutoyo digital caliper.
After 19 hours I re-measured all bullets with the caliper; there was no measurable diameter recovery in any bullet.
I had elected to size to .4500" based on perceived ramrod-required pressure to seat them in my barrel fouled with nine previous discharges. (I had used my usual between shots protocol of six dots of solvent on a single patch, followed by one dry patch.)
After thoroughly cleaning the barrel, I found that at .4500" diameter, the bullets almost slid down the barrel. I was worried that the loose fit would result in initial misfires, so I resized one bullet for a final diameter just slightly larger than the others. That bullet will be the first fouling shot; I'm counting on the resulting carbon/copper residue to tighten the fit of the rest of the bullets.
Testing method:
I have long since learned that my .45 Pac-Nor barrel requires six fouling shots before reaching its full accuracy potential. The Parker's are expensive and I have a quantity of the Hornady's on hand that I will never use for hunting; so, I'm designating the Hornady's as my fouling loads, using a powder type (H4198) for which I don't have another use.
The one Hornady bullet that I slightly enlarged will be the first shot down that clean barrel, followed by five of the regularly sized Hornady's. After the barrel returns to ambient temperature, I'll shoot groups with both the previously knurled Parker (with final sizing in the Post die) and the new Parker sized in the Post die. I'll alternate between the two bullets so that I shoot both targets, simultaneously. This should eliminate any bias due to possible discharge residue build-up in the barrel.
Worst case scenario is either the bullets are too loose either to obturate at all, or are not tight enough to yield the best target grouping. Of course, the opposite is possible, too: the bullets may be too tight to seat once the barrel is fouled.
A word about sizing with the Post die:
When I found that I needed to slightly enlarge one of the fouling Hornady's, I began gradually loosening the adjusting collar of the die. Starting from the #11 die setting (hopefully, the correct setting for the fouled-barrel Hornady's) which yielded a .4500" bullet, I achieved a good fit in the clean barrel at a setting of #10.5. This should be a measured difference of only .000065", and still registered as .4500" on the micrometer. This illustrates both the versatility of the Post die, which can't be matched by even the most expert lapping; and the critical sensitivity of sabotless shooting.
It depends on the deer-hunting forecast, but I hope to test the above this Thursday.
Harley
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Post by Dave W on Oct 11, 2010 13:51:54 GMT -5
You might find that 4198 is usable for other than foulers with the new sizing die.
Nice report, can't wait to hear more.
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Post by Harley on Oct 11, 2010 13:57:54 GMT -5
Dave, I have no quarrel with H4198's use by others; I initially experienced three mis-fires using it and, since there are other powders out there, I went another route.  Harley |
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Post by dougedwards on Oct 11, 2010 15:10:11 GMT -5
I predict that with a hot load the easy sliding bullets will shoot very accurately if shot fast but I would use a lubed wool wad.
Doug
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Post by Harley on Oct 11, 2010 16:30:48 GMT -5
Doug, I don't shoot a hot load, at least I don't think I do: 12/47 SR4759/A2015, dry wool wad, CCIM primer, 275 Parker BE. Muzzle velocity = 2307 fps.
What's your prediction, now?
Harley
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Post by Jon on Oct 11, 2010 17:51:16 GMT -5
Harley great report well done and very informative.
Jon
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Post by dougedwards on Oct 11, 2010 18:58:32 GMT -5
Doug, I don't shoot a hot load, at least I don't think I do: 12/47 SR4759/A2015, dry wool wad, CCIM primer, 275 Parker BE. Muzzle velocity = 2307 fps. What's your prediction, now? Harley Awwww.....go ahead and bump it up to 15/50 and smack those bullets in the base  Actually with the full form dies that forge the rifling into the bullet the fast shooting and really easy loading bullets (two fingers on the rod)shot best for me. I can't be sure with the normal Swinglock sizing die but I would think that quick peak pressure would be best for obturation. I am very curious to see the results of your experimentation. Doug |
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Post by savagebrother on Oct 12, 2010 0:31:48 GMT -5
ok guys what starting sizes does he have???
sb
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Post by Harley on Oct 12, 2010 9:14:57 GMT -5
Savagebrother, you can obtain answers to this and any other Swing-Lock related questions by contacting Tom Post at www.swinglock.net or email to swinglock@velocity.net He is very prompt in responding, usually the same day. Harley |
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Post by savagebrother on Oct 12, 2010 19:05:17 GMT -5
thanks harley- i have my .35 caliber smikeless muzzleloader now and i need a good bullet sizer for this project and swinglocks looks just right for the job. i will post things as they happen with the rifle. with my schedule and it getting close to hunting season it will be tough to get much done with it but i will be working with it as i have time. will post pictures of it soon.
sb
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Post by dougedwards on Oct 12, 2010 20:03:37 GMT -5
Doug, I don't shoot a hot load, at least I don't think I do: 12/47 SR4759/A2015, dry wool wad, CCIM primer, 275 Parker BE. Muzzle velocity = 2307 fps. What's your prediction, now? Harley Awwww.....go ahead and bump it up to 15/50 and smack those bullets in the base Actually with the full form dies that forge the rifling into the bullet the fast shooting and really easy loading bullets (two fingers on the rod)shot best for me. I can't be sure with the normal Swinglock sizing die but I would think that quick peak pressure would be best for obturation. I am very curious to see the results of your experimentation. Doug After reading a thread from the moderators concerning the posting of untested load info I need to apologize for kidding around concerning a submitted load that I have absolutely no experience with in the 45 cal muzzleloader. I have shot 15/50 of N110 over Alliant 10X with saboted 250 grain bullets out of the 50 cal but actually don't think that this would be an appropriate load for 275 grain bullets out of the 45 caliber smokeless muzzleloader. The point is that I don't know so I should not publish such information whether stated in a tongue in cheek manner or not, unless someone takes the statement seriously and assumes that is a tested and viable load. I certainly do not want to be the source of anyone hurting themselves or damaging their rifle. Doug |
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Post by rexxer on Oct 12, 2010 20:15:01 GMT -5
Thanks for the heads up Doug! Being a 275 grain Pacnor shooter! ;D
Hows things going Lloyd? Anxiously waiting for the golden pond results!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2010 20:28:23 GMT -5
Harley, I borrowed my friends adj die this afternoon so soon I will do some testing of my own, 275 parkers- 290 tezs will get the squeeze first....bill
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Post by tar12 on Oct 12, 2010 20:48:51 GMT -5
Harley,
Do you plan on shooting with the bore fouled? I ask because I am curious as to how many shots it will take before loading becomes a real chore on a fouled bore? I also wonder if a tight fitting bullet has any residual cleaning effect with each subsequent loading? Or does it just keep getting harder and harder to load?
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Post by Harley on Oct 12, 2010 21:29:29 GMT -5
No fear, Doug; I'm satisfied with my present load and never considered increasing the charge, so no harm done.
Hillbill, I'll look forward to your tests.
Rex, my truck's loaded; I'm going in the morning and plan to stay to shoot and bow hunt through Thursday; the forecast is wind and rain, so I'll have to get lucky if I'm to do comparison target shooting.
Rick, I am planning to shoot with the bore fouled. My first six shots will do that; my routine after every shot is to run a six-dotted solvent patch down once, then a dry patch. In the past that process kept the bore from gradually becoming tighter with each shot. Of course, that was with knurled bullets, which are more forgiving than the smooth bullets through the Swing-Lock die.
As I wrote, above, in my proposed testing procedure, the question that will be answered quickly is:
"Worst case scenario is either the bullets are too loose either to obturate at all, or are not tight enough to yield the best target grouping. Of course, the opposite is possible, too: the bullets may be too tight to seat once the barrel is fouled."
Either extreme, too loose or too tight, will mean a short shooting day.
Harley
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Post by tar12 on Oct 13, 2010 4:38:41 GMT -5
As you know Harley I am no fan of swabbing between shots, hence the interest in how many shots it takes before it cant be loaded anymore. I can live with a 10-15 shot ritual or less if I had to.. ;D
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Post by Harley on Oct 13, 2010 5:27:06 GMT -5
Rick, how many times you can reload and fire before it's too hard to push the ramrod depends in large part on how tight your bullet is to the rifling. Another variable would be the amount of residue your particular powder leaves behind.
I've never been able to reload more than twice if I don't swab between shots; a lot of our posters, though, report that they never swab, so I don't know what your experience may be.
Based on experience, I would prefer a tight fit and subsequent swabbing to a looser fit and no swabbing because the tighter fit, within reason, generally results in tighter groups.
Harley
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Post by deadeye on Oct 13, 2010 8:11:50 GMT -5
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Post by Dave W on Oct 13, 2010 12:21:05 GMT -5
Currently, I'm shooting dirty with the 250 SST. It sizes weird because of the stepped bearing surface thicknesses, the base does not spring back as much as the top so the ogive area is tight but the bottom third drops straight into the barrel, so there is not as much friction going down when seating. Probably went 30-50 shots before cleaning and they still load the same. The 300SST with the longer bearing surface is tough to load, guessing around 100lbs of pressure, these will get stuck once in a while at some point in the barrel when shooting dirty. I have probably shot at least 15 at one time and other than a few that need smacked on the rod to get restarted, no problem. The BE's take two foulers and then they tack. I do not waste these, so I can't tell you how tight they will get before it is too tight shooting dirty. Swabbing seems to leave more copper in the barrel for some reason. When I shoot dirty, the cleaning patches seem to have less copper wash.  |
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