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Post by jaspervtec on Jul 31, 2011 21:06:07 GMT -5
I've seen some posts one the board over the last few months about penetration. Seem like alot of guys on here want bullets to get pass through. Im just curious why? Coming from shot guns, I always wanted the bullet to lay under the skin in the other side. And have the deer take every pound of energy. A 250gr. Bullet at 2350fps still has a 1000 ft/pounds of energy at 3002350fps yrds. I don't know to many whitetails that could take that. And it confusing to me best the bullets with thinner jackets( in. 451-.452 class) seem like they shoot the best. But alot of guys wont shoot them because the bullets wont hold up or get pass through. Just think img out loud.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2011 21:27:25 GMT -5
I see what you're saying, The only problem with the 250 s that are mentioned here explode and dont transfer the knock down that they are possessing. Jacket failure/lead fragmentation seems to be the nemesis with smokeless velocities. From what I've been able to comprehend "two holes make more blood trail" . But the Shock or energy is not transfered here either. At 250 yds and further bullet velocity is down to sub loads at shorter distances, so dissinigration should not happen,it shouldn't blow up. On the other hand if you have a jacket that can hold together at 175yds smokeless it won't mushroom at 300. IMO the impact velocity has EVERYTHING to do on how a bullet performs. Maybe in all copper like Barnes is another animal.
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Post by lwh723 on Jul 31, 2011 21:29:38 GMT -5
I've trailed plenty of deer with only one hole, and it's not an enjoyable experience. If you want a good blood trail, a pass through is critical.
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Post by ET on Jul 31, 2011 21:39:41 GMT -5
Jaspervtec
I find that choice of bullet characteristic performance is determined by the shooter as to what provides his best option for results. I’ve had no problems with the 250SW coming out of the muzzle around 2300fps even with its fragmentation under 100yds. Put it in the boiler room and the game is over. As of yet the most I had a deer go after being hit is 70yds and most drop under 30yds in sight.
I would also use a bullet that mushroomed and retained most of its weight.
But with any load my first priority is accuracy and then decide shot placement from the know bullet characteristic response. Works for me.
Ed
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Post by zakjak221 on Jul 31, 2011 22:14:01 GMT -5
Where I hunt, a pass thru is critical. Many areas in Southern Illinois have strip mine hills that have tall grass,thickets,brush piles,deep draws and holes where a wounded animal can hide or die in. This is where I hunt. You gotta have sign to find them. The best is blood from a pass thru. I realize some guys hunt in areas that are flat and you can watch a wounded animal run for a half mile--I can't do this! My 2 cents!
Mark
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2011 23:07:05 GMT -5
I need DOI ,Dead On Impact. In some of the swamps and thickets with creeks running through them If a deer gets out of sight it can be game over... Shot placement has alot to do with passthrough also, you hit heavy shoulder bone =no passthrough ,you shoot heart or ribcage area=passthrough With one shot , which is better?
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Aug 1, 2011 5:17:48 GMT -5
If you smash both shoulder bones, send bone fragments into the lungs, shock (or hit) the spine, your deer will drop like the carpet was ripped out from under it. It will be dead before it hits the ground in most cases or dead by the time you reach it. Trouble for me on this shot is that you are trying to hit the very top of the vital area. Being a little off with your aim and you may miss/graze high. Also, it defies the sight picture I'm used to as a bow hunter...it looks weird in the scope.
This shot usually means you will eat tenderloins and rear quarters only, and usually requires a bullet that can take a punishing and stay together. Barnes BO and mono's for this shot. Our bucks can be 250 lbs on the hoof.....I would say a 120 lb doe is a different animal.
About taking all the energy....I find these types of debates interesting. An arrow MAY carry 50 lbs of energy....pass thru....and still deliver 25 pounds to the ground. Yet a well hit deer might travel 50 yds or less and bleed profusely all the way there. Put holes in the right place....and as TED says....disconnect the pump station. You need just enough energy to get the bullet there.
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Post by ET on Aug 1, 2011 5:54:52 GMT -5
The first part of this response is mostly meant for clarification. In the area I hunt there are many locations with swamps, draws/gullies, tight brush and tall grass that deer use often. These mentioned areas are situated in farm country so every terrain condition can be found here.
My ambush setup is situated on the hillside of a wooded gully that bottle necks. This section is often used by deer as a travel route or escape route. I have tried to stalk deer in heavy brushed area with little luck and found if I wait or work on the outskirts my odds have improved for getting a better shot off.
Now a few thoughts I do have is related to that often the mention of 2-holes leaves a better blood trail. On the body cavity there is an outer layer of tissue and muscle that moves when a deer moves. This can easily cover a wound and prevent the loss of blood leaving the cavity. Now if you hit an artery creating artillery spray then every time the outer muscle aligns to the entrance wound from the deer moving this will result in blood spraying outward leaving a nice blood trail. If an artery or heart is not hit a deer can bleed profusely internally with little blood expelled for a trail.
When a wounded deer leaves only a little blood trail it is tough enough to follow that trail on ground especially in the fall when the leaves come off the trees. In a swamp I find it is almost impossible to follow any blood trail where there is water.
So I’m going to go back to why a fragmenting bullet IMO is effective in taking a deer down quickly. Once the bullet enters the body and begins to fragment two other vital organs like the heart and liver are at risk of getting hit/damaged when a lung shot is taken. Also if a shot is high then the spine is at risk of getting hit by a fragment causing DRT paralyses.
For me either bullet type has advantages and disadvantages but if it is not placed with reasonably accuracy then a long trailing process is inevitable.
Ed
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Post by edge on Aug 1, 2011 7:47:42 GMT -5
On a broadside deer I expect two holes, unless that is the ONLY shot that I will take and am committed to pass on all other shots.
The anatomy of a deer tells me that deer are longer than they are wide and a deer quartering away can easily take a step froward or turn slightly as the shot breaks.
If this happens and I have a bullet that won't go through a broadside deer then it certainly will not do a good job of traversing through muscle, guts, or even stronger leg bones.
Also physics tell me that a bullet does work by moving FAST! The faster it goes the more work it can do. The bullets sitting on my desk are of no danger to anyone, but at 1000 fps they do damage!
Think about the bullet that is sitting next to the skin on the offside of your deer that started this thread. Now let's compare the damage as this bullet traveled through the deer before it came to a rest. As the bullet impacted it started to expand ( assuming an expanding bullet) and it crushed and pushed tissue out of the way at a very rapid rate. This caused massive trauma. As the bullet slowed down the the wound trauma went down too, to the point where the bullet stopped. Now compare the area around the entrance and where the bullet stopped. The entrance has lots of bloodshot tissue and where it stopped not so much.
Yes there are trade offs, a bullet that passes through will generally cause less total trauma, BUT it will be more uniform all the way through the animal. It also will help to ensure that a bullet that needs to travel on a longer shotline will still have energy to reach the vitals on a less than perfect shot.
If your shot is the high shoulder, then a more fragile bullet that most likely will not exit is probably preferred.... but that bullet may result in a gutshot deer and the bullet not reaching the vitals on a raking angle shot!
edge.
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Post by bigmoose on Aug 1, 2011 8:00:45 GMT -5
I enjoy running penetration tests, and since I no longer will take a Deer, the tests are not aimed at them. I still hunt Deer, my best friend has a Deer camp up at the lake, Lots of Deer and Hogs, I put the crosshairs on them and say Bang. ;D Although the good folks at Savage may not approve, your .50 cal rifle can be used for any game on this good earth, including Elephant.... 71grs of Benchmark with a 400gr Barnes Buster bullet will produce 2147 FPS, This is the twin to the 404 Jefferies, a very well respected Elephant load. In my Penetration tests the Barnes X 350gr bullet was the deepest penetrator going 9 1/2" into my block, the buster bullet 21 inches plus. Hundreds of thousand of animals were killed with soft lead balls so maybe our forbears were better marksman than us Marty
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Post by ratsnakeboogy on Aug 1, 2011 11:22:43 GMT -5
I love muzzleloaders, but I'm not hunting an animal that can "stomp me into salsa" with a one-shot weapon. i don't care if it penetrates 15 feet of steel. Momma didn't raise no fool. ;D
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Post by edge on Aug 1, 2011 12:30:12 GMT -5
I see what you're saying, The only problem with the 250 s that are mentioned here explode and dont transfer the knock down that they are possessing. Jacket failure/lead fragmentation seems to be the nemesis with smokeless velocities. SNIP. IMO, unless you are shooting these bullets at over 2600 or 2700 fps then shots under 100 yards need to be archery type shots. Past that they are fine and I have found good penetration. At very close range and at high velocity you do need to be careful. I found that with 250 grain XTP's and that 2600 fps to be more than adequate for 200 yard shots and the added BC of the SST only adds to that range. edge.
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Dave1
8 Pointer
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Post by Dave1 on Aug 1, 2011 13:06:34 GMT -5
I use the 250 grain Shockwave bullet with 43 grains of plastic jug 4759 powder. I don't know the actual muzz velocity but my bullet trajectory best matches that of a muzzle velocity of about 1900 fps.
The deer I have shot behind the shoulder with this load from a tree stand at 70-100 yards away dropped after running 30-100 yards. The 250 SW bullet had done a good job with alot of internal damage, but did not pass thru. The bullets hit only a rib bone on entry, fragmented, destroyed internal organs, etc., but left only a very sparse blood trail.
While I have had good success so far with this powder load and bullet, my concern or fear is that if I were to shoot for the middle of the shoulder and hit the heavy leg bone, the bullet fragmentation may be worse and the bullet may not fully penetrate into or thru the heart/lung cavity and may not produce a quick death. Increasing the powder load and bullet speed may increase bullet fragmentation and decrease penetration.
When hunting in thick woods, thick brush, overgrown fields, swamps, etc., the lack of a good blood trail can lead to the loss of or delayed recovery of an animal. It seems that a complete pass thru would increase the chance of a good blood trail and recovery, but the hit still has to be good and thru the vital organ area.
Would a bonded 250 grain SW bullet or a heavier 300 grain SW or other bullet penetrate better, do as much internal damage, and pass all the way thru?
Dave
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Post by edge on Aug 1, 2011 13:31:23 GMT -5
From the Old Board 2004: dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thread=1721I promised to post the pictures from an 250 grain SST ( actually a Shockwave Blem). This deer was shot at approx. 200 yards with a Muzzle velocity of 2650. These pictures are taken off of a VHS tape and copied to DV and then downloaded so the quality is not great. The first picture shows the entrance wound as the deer lies on the floor.The second is a slightly different angle.The third is the entrance wound from inside the hide.The fourth shows the massive hole ( as a frame of reference, you can see BOTH sides of the neck in this picture ).The fifth picture shows the penetration obtained ( good by almost anyones standards, and it is intact).The bullet was recovered at the front of the left ham, and weighed 202 grainsThe sixth and final picture is the recovered bullet.
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Post by mike3132 on Aug 1, 2011 14:07:25 GMT -5
Kill deer with the Barnes 250 or 300 Expanders and see the results and that will answer your question. Mike
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Post by rangeball on Aug 1, 2011 14:18:24 GMT -5
Kill deer with the Barnes 250 or 300 Expanders and see the results and that will answer your question. Mike +1. From high speed close hard impact to long range low velocity expansion, it has all the bases covered, and is why if a barnes will shoot for you I think it is the premier hunting bullet available.
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Post by bigmoose on Aug 1, 2011 14:34:38 GMT -5
ratsnakeboogy,
Thats why you have a guide as a back-up, put a big boomer in the boiler-room and your in business, unless its not made of flesh and blood.
Marty
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Post by ratsnakeboogy on Aug 1, 2011 18:05:56 GMT -5
ratsnakeboogy, Thats why you have a guide as a back-up, put a big boomer in the boiler-room and your in business, unless its not made of flesh and blood. Marty I figured man, I was just trying to inject some humor. ;D
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Post by bigmoose on Aug 1, 2011 19:33:27 GMT -5
Me Too
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Post by onecardchuck on Aug 1, 2011 21:39:24 GMT -5
bigmoose,
Did you find any T-Rex's to hunt yet when you do I am going 500 grains between the eyes and, no back-up guide. (My wife and children are really hoping you don't find any soon.)
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Post by pposey on Aug 1, 2011 21:54:00 GMT -5
I shoot a 120 grain 7mm balistic tip at 3100 fps in my 7mm-08,,, never lost a critter with that load and out of the 20 or so deer and hogs killed I have recovered 10 bullets or so, little lead left, usually found against the far side hide,,, very pleased with the performance though. Little running and very quick deaths,,, I can say the exact same thing for the 250 sst at 2300fps outa the ml2
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Post by jaspervtec on Aug 2, 2011 8:00:37 GMT -5
Every deer I have ever shoot with a gun that the bullet didn't go through went under 30yrds. Any that the when through both sides went 50-100 yrds. Right through the boiler room. Some one posted that thinner jackets fragment and don't retain or transfers energy. If the bullet frags and didn't come out it means it tranfered all of its energy.? Imo a bullet that grenades in the boiler room going to to make tracking short and sweet.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Aug 2, 2011 8:09:01 GMT -5
After watching the Barnes TSX gel video in slow motion, i have no problems with a complete pass through. Now i actually prefer it if you bullet is creating enough of a temporary wound channel. I also prefer 2 holes just in case i need to track them. The gel block expanded to nearly twice its size from the "hydraulic" shock. In game a similar shock wave will damage tissue and organs far from the permanent wound channel.
This isnt just Barnes either, there are many slow mo vids on youtube to backup the theory. A good bullet can easily dump enough of its energy on a pass through without wasting too much in the dirt behind your target. Ive watched a deer with no heart or lungs left run over forty yards with a 2"+ exit hole. The same day another deer hit almost the exact same load/way barely went 20 yards. Both had jello for lungs so i know the bullets dumped a lot of energy.
A self defense bullet i would likely prefer less penetration but not on game.
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Post by edge on Aug 2, 2011 8:15:14 GMT -5
IMO, IMO, IMO it does not make much sense to use a pure lead bullet at 3,000 fps or a monolithic copper at 1,000 fps!
You probably could take a brain shot with both, but neither is really in the sweet spot of their performance.
edge.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Aug 2, 2011 8:27:58 GMT -5
edgeOf course not but can you imagine a hardcast around 2000fps or even more with a wide metaplat hitting any game and it not transferring a tremendous shock. A pass through is nearly certain on deer if the bullet has a enough weight and has a good SD. I believe many bullets at the designed fps will dump enough energy to over come the deer's "flight response" and put it down faster.....with good shot placement of course. This deer didnt take a singe step with a 185gr bullet i made from a 155gr barnes 40cal at sub speeds at nearly 150 yards. This one ran about 40 yards without a heart or lungs with a 300gr SOCOM inder 80 yards. I believe the entrance and exit show a near text book shot and good expansion. The heart was basically gone. It left this mess behind the POI.
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Post by twoodard on Aug 2, 2011 8:35:16 GMT -5
I hope to test that theory in my smokeless pistol this year. why can a 255 gr WFN work in a 454 or 460 and not in a ML? seems to me it would be a good choice. im going to the range tonight to see how they shoot.
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Post by edge on Aug 2, 2011 8:57:03 GMT -5
edgeOf course not but can you imagine a hardcast around 2000fps or even more with a wide metaplat hitting any game and it not transferring a tremendous shock. A pass through is nearly certain on deer if the bullet has a enough weight and has a good SD. SNIP. It depends on the range! At a reasonable range it would be hard to beat, but at 500 yards I think it would be like shooting a mortar You still are left with the MV and the BC to determine if you will end up in the bullets velocity range at impact. edge.
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Post by edge on Aug 2, 2011 8:58:48 GMT -5
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Post by twoodard on Aug 2, 2011 9:26:20 GMT -5
it would be shedding speed and drop quicker yes. but there again your not relying on minimum velocity requirements for expansion as it is not made to expand. personally I would not take a shot that far on a deer with my ML, Im not against long range shooting by any means and I have specialty pistols built for those ranges. in my area its shotguns, ML and pistols during gun season. Mike (jaspervtec) lives in the same area. our deer go from 100# does to a big buck maybe 200 on average. at the ranges we shoot I think about anything will work. Ive killed from 30 to 210 with mine shooting 250 SST/flextips with all pass throughs
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Post by edge on Aug 2, 2011 9:54:10 GMT -5
it would be shedding speed and drop quicker yes. but there again your not relying on minimum velocity requirements for expansion as it is not made to expand. SNIP. True, but it doesn't penetrate without velocity either! edge.
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