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Post by bigmoose on Aug 2, 2011 9:58:26 GMT -5
onecardchuck,
While I waited too long to go to Africa, if I could go I would be happy to use my Savage 50 on any animal there. Not being a fool, I would have a 458 or 470 along side so I could swap out if my first shot was not on the money...Being an old old man, I believe in the old school way of hunting, when hunting large animals, get close and than get closer. Hitting a dime at 100 yards is for show, putting my shot in the boiler room is for money. I definitely plan [man plans..God laughs] to put a 400gr Buster Bullet thru the shoulders of an Alaskan Brownie next year. Plan is the key word. My very best wishes to all on the up coming season. Marty
Marty
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Post by twoodard on Aug 2, 2011 12:22:37 GMT -5
but a 45 colt shooting that bullet penetrates at less than 1000 FPS. heck some loads are less than that at the muzzle and guys are getting deep penetration with keith style or WFN type cast bullets.
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Post by edge on Aug 2, 2011 12:39:30 GMT -5
Ask a cop why he shots a 40 or a 45 instead of a 2 inch 38! I am sure that grizzly bears have been killed with a .22 too, but why? There is penetration and then there is penetration with a wide wound channel...I'll take the latter edge. From the earlier link on ballistics: www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html#lbtIf you read this it shows the relationship between velocity and penetration and cavitation or the wound diameter.
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Post by twoodard on Aug 2, 2011 14:08:30 GMT -5
I agree totally edge, not arguing just stating that they would work is all. if I think it impact velocity is the limiting factor ill take a WFN over a expanding bullet any day only because the expanding bullet that does not expand (especially a tipped version) will to less tissue damage due to small melpat than a WFN. again it the velocity is higher both should work to kill a whitetail
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Post by edge on Aug 2, 2011 15:09:40 GMT -5
IMO, a wide meplat is the about best shape for deep penetration with causing a large wound channel. The problem is how do you get that shape to the animal with good velocity That is the theory behind the GS Custom bullets: www.gsgroup.co.za/02hv.htmlIMO the problem is the nose is copper and not great for our velocities. I would love to see a LBT with the "soft nose" wound channels at both ends of our velocity spectrum. edge.
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Post by whyohe on Aug 3, 2011 13:25:45 GMT -5
this IMO is personal preferance. i shoot horandy ssts and winchester ballisitc silver tips out of my 06. most were DRT! the ones that were not were my falt at a poor shot placement for what ever reason. i think the key is if you have the right velocities for the bullet. I am of the "transfer all the energy to the animal" theory too. but if you use a bullet that explodes into too many small and too light of pieces then you have lots of tiny wounds in a wide area that can clot and not bleed well. but if it expands well with some larger fragments that leave better wounds that create more damage that is ideal. but shot place ment is crittical as usual with any thing. this has been debated before. and i do see Edges point. if the wound channel is large all the way threw then the energy transfer is almost null and void at that point cause of the tissue damage threw the wound channel. much like and arrow. the wider the arrows broadhead the bigger the channel the more it will bleed.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Aug 3, 2011 17:00:48 GMT -5
Chances are we won't ever come to a consensus on this subject. The only things that are totally 100% agreeable is that a bullet needs to find the vitals for a clean, humane, sportsman-like kill. And do it reliably every time. It's probably safe to say that any bullet used on the archery angle will do this every time at any speed. Most bullets will also do it at the weird angles too...because deer aren't big massive beasts. So we just have some limitations, potentially, on shot selection to be fair.
Secondary to that is the potential to blow the crap out of meat. Due to hydrostatic shock, even a tough bullet that sheds little weight will do this at high speed. I have seen this many times with the loads I shoot and the many deer I've killed up close.
Having 2 holes may or may not give a guaranteed blood trail for the reasons ET gives. I have seen this many times myself. One big hole going in may give a better one depending on the many dynamics of each situation. In any event, deer hit in the vitals where the heart is grazed or blasted out...or both lungs shredded...or both...do not travel far enough to warrant a discussion IMO. They will not be going far period.
I still will take a bullet that will go through bones and stay together at any speed and exit if using a one shot weapon where a quick follow up is not an option. At least I am insured that the worst case scenario is a short tracking job.
As for expending all a bullets energy into an animal, I think I can say that this myth is "busted". I can't remember recovering a bullet in a long time on a deer. I usually kill at least 5 a year and had 3 years of 15+ when I was in on nuisance permit activities. I also can't remember a tracking job that gave me fits or trouble or a deer that went more then 75 yds...most in sight.
On the occasion where a deer needs to be anchored "right now" the only way to be sure is breaking bones or severing the spine....or a head shot. (Yes, sometimes a deer will fold to a double lung...but not reliably for those that NEED it done.) Punching someone in the nose may drop one guy and piss another off. These shots also offer little room for shooter error and are risky unless you are close and prepared with a good rest and still deer. For breaking bones. how could you NOT want a tougher bullet?
Yes, this will go on and one. Fueled by both experienced seasoned killers, arm chair critics and those that have a few deer under their belt. I am of the former if it matters.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2011 21:33:17 GMT -5
This post started refering to a 250gr bullet. But , We all know what Wilms shoots, its a 325ftx lately which will plow through most anything. So,IMO ,like BIGMOOSE, there's no substitute for MASS. More mass ,more penetration,energy,etc. with less notice to bullet construction. For the one shot hunters we are , I have to agree with Wilms on the 2 hole shot. It might not drop him , but he will die. A wounded non fatal shot deer =lost deer and a sick feeling. The buck I was hunting this year,I heard got knocked off of his feet, then got up and was never seen again, by another hunter. I missed him the year before with my optima and a powerbelt. What a shame. At least a 18in,ten point on public land, I had MY chance, I put the crosshairs on him and squeezed the trigger,when the smoke cleared he was just standing there at 70yds wagging his tail, I reloaded at world record time dropped 2 pellets and pushed another pb in the hole, raised the gun up ,almost got the crosshairs back on him, then, the doe he has been trail bust me and those both dissappear,VANISH. I'm going OMG OMG what the heck is this crap. That event eventually got me here , I guess the bottom line here IMO is MAKE A GOOD SHOT ...! Know your equipment and what it will do "consistently". The bucks in RUT that I have shot have been WIRED out and even shot 5 times with a .270 150gn act like nothings happened to him. Deer can be TOUGH to kill sometimes IMO.
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Post by gunny on Aug 3, 2011 22:20:02 GMT -5
Ok today i called Hornady and really did,nt get the answer i wanted Im getting my best accuracy from the 250 gr FTX and of course after reading all this penetration stuff i started to doubt whether this is the bullet for my Manitoba whitetail hunt. Wilmsmeyer your the go to guy on the FTX know anybody thats been shooting 250 gr FTX ? From what ive been told , im looking at shots out to 300 yards, im thinkin realistically for me it would be 250. Do they hold together better than the SST ? Im currrently using 43 gr of sr 4759. Any benifit to going up in gr ? I have,nt been shooting in awhile building 32x50 toy box ;D Hoping to get the roof on in the next couple weeks. Then i can spend time shooting. gunny
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Aug 4, 2011 5:01:37 GMT -5
In general, as you get lower in weight...like 250 gr saboted in a .50, you will get more speed and bullet construction becomes more important on the close shots. I have never seen/shot a 250 FTX so no comments on paper or game.
300 gr bullets have more going for them in a .50. More mass and they will start out slower. This gives them 2 ways to better ensure not blowing up on a close shot.
As far as taking long shots....the slightly higher speed of the lighter bullets will at some point be overcome by the better BC of the heavier bullet shot slower. Where that point is may be beyond your maximum range or not. From a trajectory standpoint you will have to make adjustments with either weight bullet past 200 yds or so. In a windy situation, either will drift enough to miss a deers' vitals at 200+ yds. In the cases where shots are anticipated to be greater then 200 yds, picking the bullet that shoots the best is probably more important then construction.
And of course, a hunter should do a lot of homework at those ranges by shooting at them using the type of rest he anticipates in the field....not many shooting benches in the woods
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Post by gunny on Aug 4, 2011 5:46:23 GMT -5
I paper patched the 250,s FTX i think i will try that on the 325, i have some left. Wilms i shot the the 325,S OK but the 250,s shot the best. I won,t give up on the 325,s just yet. gunny
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Post by Dave W on Aug 4, 2011 18:53:40 GMT -5
Here here are two 250 FTX's recovered from the rear ham of whitetails. Both weighed approximately 220gr. Both were shot with book powders and I know one but I think both were less than a 100yd shot. One was almost head on, the other a hard quartering shot.IIRC The Ohio buck I took two years ago was less than a 100yds, pass through with a MV of 2600fps.
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Post by esshup on Aug 5, 2011 7:42:44 GMT -5
For out to 300 Yds, I'd be looking at the Barnes Original in 300g. 43g of 4756 might not be enough if from the new plastic jug. Do you have a chronograph? Or a place to shoot out to 300 Yds? I'd chrono the loads if at all possible, and shoot out that far. It's easier to figure out bullet drop if you have a good rangefinder, but the wind starts playing hell with the bullets out there.
I used 43g of 4756 (new plastic jug) behind a 250g SST last year and I didn't get pass thru with a dbl lung shot at 220 Yds. I would have with the old metal can of 4756. I just shot it for drop at 100 and 200, when I switched to the new can, noticing that it was about 8" more at 200 Yds than the old can. I adjusted for drop, but didn't think about penetration. Hopefully that will be the last time that I have to worry about it, it'll be wearing a .45 cal barrel this year.
I don't know if you can get 'em, but the 300g and 350g Barnes flat based "X" bullet performed really well for me on hogs at close range, but I don't know if they'll have enough velocity to open at those further distances. Barnes said they needed a minimum of 1900 fps to open.
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Post by bigmoose on Aug 5, 2011 8:26:57 GMT -5
I use both the 300 and 350 Barnes X bullets, and thanks to the members of this board, I was able to stock up on them when Barnes changed over. In cool weather I use 70grs of H4198, with both, RB said to drop back to 66grs for the 350. The 350 with 70grs is a monster on penetation, it went in 9 3/4 inches in my test block, before that the 300 was the deepest at just under 7 inches. If you are interested in penetation for penetaion sake, try the Barnes 400grs Buster Bullet with 71grs of benchmark, its a anti-tank load.
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Post by hunter on Aug 6, 2011 6:21:21 GMT -5
esshup Did you mean 4759 or 4756
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