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Post by Richard on Jun 3, 2011 13:32:08 GMT -5
Man Edge............you got your ducks in a row on this one  So, basically, according to your theory, we are pretty much "Up the proverbial creek with out a paddle?". With the sabots we have available to us, there is no way to consistently get everything centered------------EVERY time. The PVC sabots you use are the way to go, but not available to the majority. That leave the sabot-less thing the best possible avenue for more like benchrest type accuracy  And with the heavier .45 bullets (sabot-less) comes more bearing surface and consequently more accuracy........A-LA Deadeye's project. Makes sense! But, in terms of the "everyday deer hunter", this benchrest accuracy is really not needed UNLESS the hunter has a pension for EX treme long range shots...........................which most do not! . I have many loads as do most, that will at least put 3 to 5 bullets inside six or seven inches at 300 yards  Not great accuracy, but when you consider the size of the kill zone on a whitetail, as long as you have your group dialed in, you should be able to successfully take deer at that range on a consistent basis  My self, as a benchrest shooter, am interested in paper punching accuracy and am following rangeballs progress. Still, the fact that even if he gets a good bullet? It is only going to be as accurate as the sabot it is placed in and aligned in the bore? Which I think will put us back to square one! Either go sabot less with one of Tom Posts adjustable sizing dies or shoot saboted with a whole lot less trouble and limit your shots (if you can call 300 or so yards limited ) to distances you can successfully hit your quarry! Richard |
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Post by edge on Jun 3, 2011 13:55:15 GMT -5
IMO, the "new" bullet will most likely not be more accurate...BUT if it shoots as well as your current bullets it will get to that 300 yard line faster, with more energy and less wind drift. In the new bullet thread there was talk about numbers on the bottom of the sabot. I don't know if anyone has ever sorted them by number and clocked the petals to the bore. If I used them I would try to see if the sabots from individual molds and clocked in the same way would reduce dispersion. When I first started making my PVC sabots I put an extra rifling cut that was offset by 5 degrees from the first groove. I then marked it with a magic marker and always loaded the sabot in the same land in the rifle. My sabots did not seem to need this extra work so I stopped it about a year ago. Molded sabots probably are consistent from part to part from the same mold......maybe  edge. |
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Post by deadon on Jun 3, 2011 14:57:32 GMT -5
I ask this a couple of weeks ago in another thread, if it was answered please forgive this old man. If you bored out the muzzle end of the barrel may be 3/4 of an inch deep so the harvester sabot fits very snug into the barrel, would not that aline the bullet more perfectly in the barrel?
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Post by edge on Jun 3, 2011 16:19:09 GMT -5
IMO, you would need to be able to insert the sabot without the bullet...then insert the bullet into the sabot and then drive the two down the bore.
IMO, if you could do that then it should get the bullet into near perfect alignment. A good bore guide should be able to do this.
It would NOT remove the sabot petal inconsistencies from the equation but I actually do NOT know how much they play in the problem.
edge.
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Post by deadon on Jun 3, 2011 16:34:57 GMT -5
Thanks Edge, Rusty
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Post by Jon on Jun 3, 2011 16:53:26 GMT -5
If I'm not mistaken isn't it bad bull that has a sabot gun that the sabot is seated and then the bullet?
Jon
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Post by smokeeter on Jun 3, 2011 18:09:15 GMT -5
If I'm not mistaken isn't it bad bull that has a sabot gun that the sabot is seated and then the bullet? Jon Jon that is what bad bull was previously doing. I thought that bad bull was back boring the breech area to accomodate the sabot and I have tried that at the range with my savage and it shot fine but I always lacked the confindence that if the bullet would seat correctly it would result in a bulge or blown barrel. |
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Post by hunter on Jun 3, 2011 18:44:54 GMT -5
I tried to load pushing the sabot down on the powder charge and then seating the bullet and one of the petals folded down under the bullet and I had to remove the breach plug and remove the load so I never tried that again.
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Post by deadon on Jun 3, 2011 18:57:21 GMT -5
I tried to load pushing the sabot down on the powder charge and then seating the bullet and one of the petals folded down under the bullet and I had to remove the breach plug and remove the load so I never tried that again. If there were no lands for the first 3/4 inch, and the sabot fit perfectly in the smooth 3/4 " you could push the sabot in and then seat the bullet in the sabot maybe perfectly aligned. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2011 20:01:27 GMT -5
Why not a full-form ramrod / bulletseater, with,.002 play for fouling ...  I'm selling doit yourself kits,lol. |
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Post by Richard on Jun 3, 2011 20:52:49 GMT -5
The QLA Rusty mentions in this thread and I had previously mentioned a week or so ago in another thread is the same as the precision muzzle guide I am using now. What I had talked about and have not done yet, is machine a short starter and dedicate it to the SST and maybe one for the XTP and or the Nosler HP. These will be bedded to the nose of the bullet. The shaft will also be machined to a tight tolerance with the muzzle guide. Hopefully, this will hold the bullet a little more in alignment than my current setup . I think this will be a crucial component if a quality bullet gets developed. The best, most perfect bullet in the world that is not aligned straight and in the center of the bore will give poor results  Richard |
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Post by Dave W on Jun 3, 2011 21:24:49 GMT -5
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Post by Dave W on Jun 4, 2011 9:15:56 GMT -5
IMO, the "new" bullet will most likely not be more accurate...BUT if it shoots as well as your current bullets it will get to that 300 yard line faster, with more energy and less wind drift. In the new bullet thread there was talk about numbers on the bottom of the sabot. I don't know if anyone has ever sorted them by number and clocked the petals to the bore.If I used them I would try to see if the sabots from individual molds and clocked in the same way would reduce dispersion. When I first started making my PVC sabots I put an extra rifling cut that was offset by 5 degrees from the first groove. I then marked it with a magic marker and always loaded the sabot in the same land in the rifle. My sabots did not seem to need this extra work so I stopped it about a year ago. Molded sabots probably are consistent from part to part from the same mold......maybe edge. Somebody on the old board did it, there was not enough improvement in groups to warrant mentioning it again. He was tinkering with load levels at the time though. |
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Post by edge on Jun 4, 2011 10:54:46 GMT -5
If it was the old board then it most certainly was in 50 cal and not a custom barrel.
IMO, if you get mainly sub moa shots then every littler bit can help and doing things consistently can show minor differences.
Groups that consist of three shots at 1/2 moa and a fourth shot that moves to 1 moa and a fith at 1 1/2 moa then you might ask what happened to those two shots that blew the group!
If on the other hand your mainly shooting 1 or 2 moa groups then you never really know what caused the 3 moa flier.
edge.
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Post by Dave W on Jun 4, 2011 11:44:03 GMT -5
If it was the old board then it most certainly was in 50 cal and not a custom barrel. IMO, if you get mainly sub moa shots then every littler bit can help and doing things consistently can show minor differences. Groups that consist of three shots at 1/2 moa and a fourth shot that moves to 1 moa and a fith at 1 1/2 moa then you might ask what happened to those two shots that blew the group! If on the other hand your mainly shooting 1 or 2 moa groups then you never really know what caused the 3 moa flier. edge. Yes, it was a 50 cal. He tweaked the load to consistent MOA but no more was mentioned of sabot sorting. The only reason I remembered it was I copied most of my routine off of the poster. No argument on the consistency part. Not sure if this is even possible, but has anybody tried a heavy knurl to get the bullet up to .403-.404 and try it with a crushed rib sabot. Possibly too tight of a fit? Thinking along the lines of how a .458 bullet generally is more accurate in the .50. |
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Post by dannoboone on Jun 4, 2011 12:49:56 GMT -5
So, are you saying that if a bullet is "cocked" a couple thousandths
in the sabot when being pushed down the barrel, that all is lost,
and that it cannot be both seated and centered within the sabot
at the time the combination is seated on the powder?
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Post by edge on Jun 4, 2011 15:32:01 GMT -5
"all is lost"? NO, but most likely not as good as one that is straight! I guess that target shooters use custom actions, or straighten factory actions for a reason They seem to go to great lengths to get the bullets going down the bore the same way and at the same velocity for a reason. I suppose they could just be neurotic and they really could do just as well with a tomato stake of a factory gun...but I doubt it edge. |
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Post by Richard on Jun 4, 2011 19:18:00 GMT -5
No Edge, you are right! The bullet must be lined up precisely centered in the bore. If not, it will never straighten up. Once 55 to 60,000 psi is applied to the base of the bullet, it will enter the bore just as it is lined up. If off center, it will go down the bore that way and exit that way..............out of balance and pointing in what ever direction the nose is facing . Thus, it is imperative that when a chamber is cut, it must be in alignment with the center of the bore. If the barrel is not properly indicated in the lathe, the chamber will be off center. Having a reamer designed to co-inside with the dimensions of the case being used is also a must. If the case is not held centered in the chamber, the bullet will not be pointing directly down the bore. Factory chambers are reamed with very generous tolerances to accommodate many different brands of ammunition. Here is where accuracy suffers in factory rifles. Because of the tolerances, the bullet and cartridge are allowed to move around inside the chamber. That EJECTOR button that is spring loaded in the face of your bolt? It is pushing against the base of the cartridge and pushing it off to one side. Now the bullet is no longer centered in the bore. With a custom tight neck chamber, that plunger cannot push the cartridge side ways! Actually the short range benchrest guys never used an ejector........only an extractor. They picked the spent cartridge out by hand just because of that fact. So, yes, it is necessary to have our ML bullets as centered as possible. I had talked about making a short starter that would aide in lining up the bullet as best as possible? Well, I got around today to start making it. First I turned a piece of aluminum rod down to a couple of thousandths smaller than my bore guide. Then I bored out the end and filled it with Marine-Tex epoxy. Next I chucked a SST, well coated with shoe polish (for a release agent) in my Jacob's chuck in the tail stock and ran it into the epoxy. The one photo is how it looked at first and the second is after releasing the chuck and backing it out. It is still curing but set enough to release the chuck. This piece will then get a knob screwed on the opposite end. It will be used to just get the bullet/sabot down to the crown. I will then follow with my spin jag ram rod which fits just slightly looser thru the guide, to do the final seating. I figure that once the bullet and sabot have been fully captured by the rifling, it should stay in alignment down the bore.   |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2011 20:49:14 GMT -5
Looks nice Richard. Could you thread your starter to fit on your ramrod so you could follow the bullet all the way down and seat it square,maybe heavy seating pressure pushes sabot/bullet out of alignment.
Greenhorn
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Post by edge on Jun 4, 2011 21:19:43 GMT -5
Richard I use low melting temp alloy for my ramrod tips.
I also drill out the tip because each bullet is a bit different.
edge.
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Post by Richard on Jun 5, 2011 16:13:42 GMT -5
Edge...........Yes, I drilled out the tip and got an exact form of the SST, complete with the little indents where the jacket is folded to the tip. You actually have to slightly turn the starter to engage the indents. And yes, the bullet released ok. I coated it real well with the shoe polish. I then unlocked the tail-stock and just tapped the chuck with a copper hammer and it popped out ;D Below is the finished product along with my existing bore guide. Greenhorn.........I believe that once the bullet is started down inside the bore, it will not move out of alignment as the ram rod pushes it down. Remember, the ram rod is also held to fairly close tollerance with the guide. Richard  |
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Post by jims on Jun 5, 2011 16:41:00 GMT -5
That looks very good Richard.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2011 18:01:28 GMT -5
I SEE...!!! Looks like alignment can't be an issue on your future groups . Very nice...!!!
Greenhorn
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Post by Jon on Jun 5, 2011 18:57:22 GMT -5
Richard where did yiou find the orange plastic. I think it really looks good. You do really nice looking machine work.
Jon
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Post by Richard on Jun 5, 2011 19:31:58 GMT -5
Jon............its not plastic............its aluminum that is painted orange so I don't forget its there and shoot it down range ;D
Richard
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Post by pposey on Jun 5, 2011 20:02:19 GMT -5
"No Edge, you are right! The bullet must be lined up precisely centered in the bore. If not, it will never straighten up. Once 55 to 60,000 psi is applied to the base of the bullet, it will enter the bore just as it is lined up. If off center, it will go down the bore that way and exit that way..............out of balance and pointing in what ever direction the nose is facing"
Heck thats what I said last week about the new longer bullets,,,,
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Post by Jon on Jun 6, 2011 2:50:36 GMT -5
Richard. Good thought and if it does happen to get shot down range it will be easier to find.
Jon
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And with the heavier .45 bullets (sabot-less) comes more bearing surface and consequently more accuracy........A-LA Deadeye's project. Makes sense!
Not great accuracy, but when you consider the size of the kill zone on a whitetail, as long as you have your group dialed in, you should be able to successfully take deer at that range on a consistent basis 
I'm selling doit yourself kits,lol.
