j1r11
8 Pointer
Posts: 178
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Post by j1r11 on Mar 21, 2011 10:50:58 GMT -5
j1R11, About an 1/8 th of an inch off the sabots sounds right. I used a flat ended nail clipper and I made a wood insert cut to the cup size of an MMP short black sabot and then put that inside each sabot and them trimmed to the top of the wood insert. If this helps that is the easiest way I have found to trim sabots. Do you happen to have a pic. of this? I found that if i take as big of a bite as my clippers can take that it ends up perfect in length. Do you trim so they are perfectly straight? Mine have a very slight u cut due to the shape of the clipper, so i worry about straightening them perfect? |
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Post by onecardchuck on Mar 21, 2011 11:49:38 GMT -5
When I get home tonight I will post some pictures.
However, what you have shown in the pictures may work, and you might want to give those a try.
Also a little better explanation:
I went to the hardware store and got some dowel rod just under half inch in diameter. I would gladly send you some of mine as I have a lot of it left over and perhaps one fine member on the board would send you a few MMP short black smooth sabots to work with. I got rid of all my 50. cal. stuff a while back.
I then put one end of the dowel rod in a short MMP black sabot much like you would put a bullet in the sabot. and marked the rod and cut it and filed it a little to have a perfect wooden insert.
Then I take that wooden insert and put it in any other longer sabot and using a flat nail clipper and clipping only a little at a time I keep going around the sabot until I have all petals the exact same length so to not get the sabot off balance.
Send me a PM with your address and I can send you some of the dowel rod I have to work with and maybe someone can send you a few MMP short black smooth sabots to work with.
Hope this helps,
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j1r11
8 Pointer
Posts: 178
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Post by j1r11 on Mar 21, 2011 12:23:15 GMT -5
When I get home tonight I will post some pictures. However, what you have shown in the pictures may work, and you might want to give those a try. Also a little better explanation: I went to the hardware store and got some dowel rod just under half inch in diameter. I would gladly send you some of mine as I have a lot of it left over and perhaps one fine member on the board would send you a few MMP short black smooth sabots to work with. I got rid of all my 50. cal. stuff a while back. I then put one end of the dowel rod in a short MMP black sabot much like you would put a bullet in the sabot. and marked the rod and cut it and filed it a little to have a perfect wooden insert. Then I take that wooden insert and put it in any other longer sabot and using a flat nail clipper and clipping only a little at a time I keep going around the sabot until I have all petals the exact same length so to not get the sabot off balance. Send me a PM with your address and I can send you some of the dowel rod I have to work with and maybe someone can send you a few MMP short black smooth sabots to work with. Hope this helps, I see now, thanks. I will have to look for a flat clipper, all i have ever seen are those slightly curved ones. EDIT-- due to one of the target group pics being hard to see i have outlined the holes on the first page. |
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Post by Richard on Mar 21, 2011 19:03:57 GMT -5
Here is a tool I made up after getting the idea from ET. One end of the unit has an adjustable stop. You push the sabot in, then insert the other rod which is the inside diameter of the sabot. Now, you take a razor knife and roll (cut) it around the petals sticking out. It trims them perfect. You then press it on the nail attached to the board to push it out. That piece with the threads on it? It has a hole drilled thru it from end to end. Richard    |
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j1r11
8 Pointer
Posts: 178
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Post by j1r11 on Mar 21, 2011 23:00:36 GMT -5
Here is a tool I made up after getting the idea from ET. One end of the unit has an adjustable stop. You push the sabot in, then insert the other rod which is the inside diameter of the sabot. Now, you take a razor knife and roll (cut) it around the petals sticking out. It trims them perfect. You then press it on the nail attached to the board to push it out. That piece with the threads on it? It has a hole drilled thru it from end to end. Richard Wow, that's pretty hi-tech. Now only if i was a machinist ;D |
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Post by onecardchuck on Mar 22, 2011 7:06:43 GMT -5
Richard,
You always come up with the coolest contraptions. Love to see the innovation.
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Post by Jon on Mar 22, 2011 10:33:25 GMT -5
J1r11. All I use is a standard nail clippers and insert to to the pin. Works for me. But there is always the possibility of another better mouse trap?
Jon
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j1r11
8 Pointer
Posts: 178
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Post by j1r11 on Mar 22, 2011 11:15:00 GMT -5
J1r11. All I use is a standard nail clippers and insert to to the pin. Works for me. But there is always the possibility of another better mouse trap? Jon This is what i have done so far, but the petals are not perfectly straight and a few might be a hair longer/shorter than others, if that matters. Do the pics of mine look like how yours come out too? Do you still get good groups cut this way? |
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Post by Richard on Mar 23, 2011 15:52:35 GMT -5
ET made up one prior to getting his lathe....Maybe he will post the pic's? I know they were on the old board.
Richard
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j1r11
8 Pointer
Posts: 178
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Post by j1r11 on Mar 23, 2011 16:27:00 GMT -5
Got to shoot the trimmed sabots today with indexing. 100yds were not as good as before, but there was some wind. 200yds was all over  Can a 5-10 mph 1/4 or 1/2 value wind move these 3-4 inches left to right? 1 shot was dead center left to right, 1 was 4 inches left of that and 1 was about 3 inches right of dead center. This was full length orange MMP's indexed and 60 gr. n120 w/ 300gr. BO's. I also shot 300 gr. horn. #4500's with the same powder sabot combo. first 1 was about dead center the next was about 1 inch to the right of that. Then, 1 went about 5 inches to the left then my next shot was 3 inches right of dead center but 5 inches higher that the last 3. I thing the wind switched a bit and gave me a 3/4 value head wind. I will post pics later as i am at work now. |
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Post by fishhawk on Mar 23, 2011 18:59:35 GMT -5
J1r11, go to a ballistics calculator such as the one on Hornady's site and plug in your info. You'll be suprised how bad these big bullets are bothered by the wind. That's what all the fuss is over on the 327 Parker and talk of a better bc .400 bullet
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j1r11
8 Pointer
Posts: 178
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Post by j1r11 on Mar 23, 2011 19:23:35 GMT -5
J1r11, go to a ballistics calculator such as the one on Hornady's site and plug in your info. You'll be suprised how bad these big bullets are bothered by the wind. That's what all the fuss is over on the 327 Parker and talk of a better bc .400 bullet I will do that, this has me bugging out. Up and down one of my groups was 1", but left to right was almost 8" across. @ 100yds i had no left to right movement. Wierd thing is with indexing, my groups were almost twice what they were without indexing, but i will test more into that as today was not great conditions. I have pics of my spent sabot and a mushroom from a BO @200 yds after 1/4" plywood and only going into 2 inches of shale mud/dirt. It retained i believe 228gr. or about 76%. I cannot believe how much it turned inside out at that distance, and i found out it is not bonded ;D. A little pull and the copper jacket seperated from the lead core. |
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j1r11
8 Pointer
Posts: 178
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Post by j1r11 on Mar 24, 2011 12:17:34 GMT -5
As i found the BO 300gr. from a 200 yd. impact through 1/4" plywood then 2 inches of shale/dirt.  A little pull and this happened.   |
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j1r11
8 Pointer
Posts: 178
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Post by j1r11 on Mar 24, 2011 12:37:36 GMT -5
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Post by Richard on Mar 24, 2011 14:48:27 GMT -5
j1r11........Did I read that one target correctly.........In your notes you have listed 60 gr. of N-110 with a 300 gr. bullet?  ?? Did you mean N-120? That would be alot of N-110 with a 300 gr. bullet  That 1.5" target looked very good! Richard |
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j1r11
8 Pointer
Posts: 178
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Post by j1r11 on Mar 24, 2011 16:06:53 GMT -5
j1r11........Did I read that one target correctly.........In your notes you have listed 60 gr. of N-110 with a 300 gr. bullet? ?? Did you mean N-120? That would be alot of N-110 with a 300 gr. bullet That 1.5" target looked very good! Richard Yep, i messed up, i was trying to get the pics up before work. I meant N120 |
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Post by fishhawk on Mar 24, 2011 17:18:12 GMT -5
J1r11, I just plugged the BO into the ballistics calculator. At 2250fps, .291bc, 10mph crosswind= 6.7" wind drift at 200yds, but only 1.6" at 100yds. 300 gr., .291 B.C. www.hornady.comRange (yards) Muzzle 50 100 200 300 Velocity (fps) 2250 2112 1979 1729 1504 Trajectory -1.5 0.2 0.0 -7.4 -26.6 Wind Drift (inches) 0.0 0.4 1.6 6.7 16.0 |
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j1r11
8 Pointer
Posts: 178
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Post by j1r11 on Mar 24, 2011 17:48:54 GMT -5
J1r11, I just plugged the BO into the ballistics calculator. At 2250fps, .291bc, 10mph crosswind= 6.7" wind drift at 200yds, but only 1.6" at 100yds. 300 gr., .291 B.C. www.hornady.comRange (yards) Muzzle 50 100 200 300 Velocity (fps) 2250 2112 1979 1729 1504 Trajectory -1.5 0.2 0.0 -7.4 -26.6 Wind Drift (inches) 0.0 0.4 1.6 6.7 16.0 Thanks, i forgot to check that out last night. I was afraid it was gonna be something like that. The up/down was not that bad. |
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Post by onecardchuck on Mar 25, 2011 8:26:57 GMT -5
One thing I notice and this is just a guess. If you take the #2 shot of the vertical stringing group and move it up 2 inches it is an exact match to the previous group. Usually when I did this with my targets it was due to an inconsistent cheek weld by me the shooter. Just something to think about as you look at the two groups together 1 out of 6 was a flier and by my standards that ain't to darn bad.
Jason good luck with the stuff I sent you and be sure to try even cutting and knurling and I think you will be surprised by the results. Let me know if I can help in any way.
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j1r11
8 Pointer
Posts: 178
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Post by j1r11 on Mar 25, 2011 10:26:33 GMT -5
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j1r11
8 Pointer
Posts: 178
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Post by j1r11 on Mar 25, 2011 10:40:33 GMT -5
One thing I notice and this is just a guess. If you take the #2 shot of the vertical stringing group and move it up 2 inches it is an exact match to the previous group. Usually when I did this with my targets it was due to an inconsistent cheek weld by me the shooter. Just something to think about as you look at the two groups together 1 out of 6 was a flier and by my standards that ain't to darn bad. Jason good luck with the stuff I sent you and be sure to try even cutting and knurling and I think you will be surprised by the results. Let me know if I can help in any way. Very good observation! Sometimes it helps to get a outside perspective. Cheek weld note taken. I concentrate very hard on trigger pull and all shots take me by suprise, so i know i did not "pull any of them" (that day anyway ;D). The good news is after 4 or 5 100yds groups, none all them were worse than my best group before the bedding, and in most cases almost half the group. Now, 200 yds i want to get better. I have only tried 2 groups in so so conditions though. My best before bedding was 4-3/4" w/ n120 62gr. orange MMP full length not indexed sabot(did not know what indexing was at the time) and 300gr. Horn. #4500 (did not have BO's at the time). |
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Post by onecardchuck on Mar 25, 2011 12:02:33 GMT -5
Now, 200 yds i want to get better. I have only tried 2 groups in so so conditions though. My best before bedding was 4-3/4" w/ n120 62gr. orange MMP full length not indexed sabot(did not know what indexing was at the time) and 300gr. Horn. #4500 (did not have BO's at the time). That was the first thing I noticed at 200 yards was tighter groups with the BO versus the Hornady 4500. If I remember correctly the 100 yard groups with the BO had a higher POI and very close to the same group size, but the 200 yard groups with the BO were about half the size as the Hornady 4500. All shot using indexing, cut down sabot, and knurl on the bullet. |
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j1r11
8 Pointer
Posts: 178
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Post by j1r11 on Mar 25, 2011 12:26:52 GMT -5
Now, 200 yds i want to get better. I have only tried 2 groups in so so conditions though. My best before bedding was 4-3/4" w/ n120 62gr. orange MMP full length not indexed sabot(did not know what indexing was at the time) and 300gr. Horn. #4500 (did not have BO's at the time). That was the first thing I noticed at 200 yards was tighter groups with the BO versus the Hornady 4500. If I remember correctly the 100 yard groups with the BO had a higher POI and very close to the same group size, but the 200 yard groups with the BO were about half the size as the Hornady 4500. All shot using indexing, cut down sabot, and knurl on the bullet. Actually the BO's had 8" left to right group and the 4500's had a 6". Yes, @ 100yds the BO's were slightly higher. I have not knurled any yet. The very last 2 targets i posted a little above this post are the only groups i have shot @200 after bedding. |
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Post by onecardchuck on Mar 25, 2011 15:03:57 GMT -5
Jason,
I apologize I was not describing your 200 yard groups I was recalling what I saw when I shot my own 200 yard groups with these same bullets.
I am still thinking about what you are getting at 200 yards.
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j1r11
8 Pointer
Posts: 178
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Post by j1r11 on Mar 25, 2011 16:14:06 GMT -5
Jason, I apologize I was not describing your 200 yard groups I was recalling what I saw when I shot my own 200 yard groups with these same bullets. I am still thinking about what you are getting at 200 yards. Ahh, gotcha, no big deal. |
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j1r11
8 Pointer
Posts: 178
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Post by j1r11 on Mar 27, 2011 9:50:13 GMT -5
Any thoughts on the BO mushroom pic?
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Post by GMB54-120 on Mar 27, 2011 10:50:33 GMT -5
Any thoughts on the BO mushroom pic? I had similar results with 2 out of 5 when i shot them into wet media at only 1900fps. Penetration was excellent but when 2 were recovered the core and jacket separated with minimal effort. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2011 11:27:28 GMT -5
dont be misled by the separation on the bo, when shot into meat these bullets are tough, maybe too tough. I have seen several that have penciled through with very little expansion.
I shot one buck running at me and when it turned a little i hit him behind the shoulder and the bullet was in his femur on the opposite hind leg, the bone was shattered of course along with two ribs on the way in. that is a lot of penetration and @ 115 yds. many swear by these bullets and a few curse them but they are among the most accurate choice out there for the .50 shooter....Bill
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j1r11
8 Pointer
Posts: 178
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Post by j1r11 on Mar 27, 2011 13:37:48 GMT -5
I am not so concerned with the seperation as i am how easily and much it opened up at 200yds. Does 76% weight retention sound right?
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Can a 5-10 mph 1/4 or 1/2 value wind move these 3-4 inches left to right? 1 shot was dead center left to right, 1 was 4 inches left of that and 1 was about 3 inches right of dead center. This was full length orange MMP's indexed and 60 gr. n120 w/ 300gr. BO's.
?? Did you mean N-120? That would be alot of N-110 with a 300 gr. bullet 
That 1.5" target looked very good!
