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Post by Savage Shooter on Feb 17, 2011 15:20:02 GMT -5
TG thanyou for your hard work.......now we can get back to work on the duplex with this load.........
Needs more powder on the main charge looks like to me.
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Post by deadeye on Feb 17, 2011 21:19:30 GMT -5
update-2.17.2011- today was to up the n110/varget to find the higher velocity sweetspot hopefully,instead pressure signs returned on primer buldging just under the rim much like the h322 's load prior. the prior accurate load was 9.0/61 @ 2417fps n110/varget 9.0/65=2447fps 8.0/67=2444fps 7.0/70=2477fps all had pressure signs **updated 2/23/2011 with a non recessed plug** 110/varget 7/72@2469fps 7/75/2503 7/78/2552 7/81/2643 **obvious primer pressure sign's gone!! straight varget 81.0gns=2490 pressure also pressure appeared to rise faster than antisipated velocity we believe we have identified several probable accurate back up loads but are searching for the "mother load" w/325be out of the sav-nor .458 imr 4350 is next on our list & we are getting close.
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Post by rkrobson on Feb 17, 2011 21:28:21 GMT -5
How about the ventliner wear deadeye, still ok? I've taken a repreive and went to the 50 Pacnor that arrived recently, thanks for all the work your doing, Ray
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Post by deadeye on Feb 17, 2011 21:38:32 GMT -5
your welcome ray & iv'e been watching nic58 thread also,cant add anything since i have not shot a saboted 325be & good luck to you
on vent wear-its tough to tell since i have changed a few loads & this evening's test was just over a chrony without checking the vent size before starting,but in the last 30 shots w different loads & the last were on the pressure side-vent started .031 & is .034 now/most of the wear i suspect was due to this evenings load's imo
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Post by edge on Feb 18, 2011 8:12:33 GMT -5
A general rule of thumb with Powley & IMR powders is that an increase in velocity of 5% will yield an increase of 10% in pressure.
edge.
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Post by deadeye on Feb 18, 2011 13:10:00 GMT -5
up date 2.18.2011// 1st i updated the thread of 2015@67.0gn@2343fps- it flatlined also. here is probably the last single i will test-**note the hammered down load accelerated velocity without pressure sign on the primer cup***
imr-3031/w/300gn xtp 66.0g=2277fps 68.0g=2302fps 71.0g=2458fps * hammered down bore* no pressure sign 73.0g=2430fps w/pressure sign
3031 also flatlined.
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Post by deadeye on Feb 19, 2011 16:40:12 GMT -5
2.19.2011 imr4350 p=pressure,sp=slight pressure,np=no pressure signs straight 4350-100gns @ 2410fps-np duplex n110/imr4350 5/100=2684fps-p 3/100=2590fps-sp 5/94 =2559 sp 5/97 =2598 p 6/89 =2513 np 6/92 =2597 p 6/94 =2640 p 7/88 =2561 np 8/87 =2568 p 9/84 =2531 np 10/84 =2607 np **note** this was not the order shot-was probing around safely** this next target im posting for the .5moa doubters & i agree this i not a .5 group but a approx .685/ 6 hot with 3 minor adjustment in loads(1st 6group shot w325be). started 10/84//2603fps,2602fps- prior np but 2 shot grp showed pressure so decided to alter load--,,to 10/83-sp// 2590fps & 2603fps added to same bullseye hold & group while chrongraphing,group altered a little but not enlarge-adjusted back to 9/84 as prior np, forgot to turn on chrony 1st sht,2nd @2488fps which i think was a misread since sun came out. these 2 shots did not "touch paper" ;D ;D tommorrow will be my last chance to shoot for about a week due to a hectic schedule. im betting this is the load @ approx 2530fps
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Post by Savage Shooter on Feb 19, 2011 16:55:07 GMT -5
Don't know if this load will even get to 500yds. ;D ;D An ifin it does wont have enough energy left to kill bambi's. Energy will be down to 2000ft/lbs @ 500........
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Post by deadeye on Feb 19, 2011 17:01:00 GMT -5
Don't know if this load will even get to 500yds. ;D ;D thats funny mark,we are going backwards ;D/// trace in order? and what are your thoughts on the imr4895/75gn @ 2514 vs. this 9/84@ approx 2530,pressure & temperature sensitive wise,i'm still learning! thx jeff
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Post by Savage Shooter on Feb 19, 2011 17:09:40 GMT -5
Don't know if this load will even get to 500yds. ;D ;D thats funny mark,we are going backwards ;D/// trace in order? and what are your thoughts on the imr4895/75gn @ 2514 vs. this 9/84@ approx 2530,pressure & temperature sensitive wise,i'm still learning! thx jeff I think for sabotless like you are shooting the use of the duplex will add considerably to accuracy in bullet obturation alone. Test the 2 loads against each other at looong range and I think the story will be over, the end. Pressure wise I think this needs a trace because pressure should be less than the 75gr 4895 as a single. Temp sensitive, I aint got a clue, but should be ok with that much booster under that heavy bullet. This load only about 42ft/lbs recoil......by the way do you have a good dentist? ? Still aint .5 though!.............
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Post by Dave W on Feb 19, 2011 18:17:33 GMT -5
Recoil has to be pretty stout! What kind of rest are you using, anything to take the edge off? Great shooting by the way, especially with that stout of a load!!!
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Post by Richard on Feb 19, 2011 19:40:33 GMT -5
OK...........Now lets move the target out to 100 yards ;D Richard
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Post by Savage Shooter on Feb 19, 2011 20:24:26 GMT -5
Recoil has to be pretty stout! What kind of rest are you using, anything to take the edge off? Great shooting by the way, especially with that stout of a load!!! I prefer Crown to take the edge off! Load should be about 42ft/lbs. I asked if he had a good dentist.
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Post by shooter on Feb 19, 2011 22:17:18 GMT -5
deadeye.Great shooting cant wait to see some long range group with that big bullet.I want to say very Nice work way to hang in there.I no you put allot of work into this 325 gr bullet very impressive. :)When are you going to stretch it out?
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Post by rkrobson on Feb 20, 2011 11:02:36 GMT -5
Deadeye, I didn't notice if you said, what are you doing between shots for cleaning , swabbing or nothing, thanks, Ray
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Post by deadeye on Feb 21, 2011 10:25:57 GMT -5
home computer crashed this weekend,i guess it couldnt handle the published recoil ;D rkrobson-no swabbing or cleaning between shots even @ approx 70 count- later i will post some interesting notes about this bullet shooter-when it dries up some ,right now the fields are soaked & it is raining here now i do plan to shoot long range -3shot groups w 4895 load & the 9/84 also for comparison & push the yardage up just to see what happens. richard-give me some credit as i at least had time to cover the the "mess" up & resized my pic's for you ;D davew- i dont remember what the name of this rest was but i see tar12 has the same rest in better condition, mine has been ran over by an atv & sports all kind of duct-tape etc. the rest has shot 4times -5shot 1 holers@100yds from rifles such as 6br,243's & such. i think the "rest thing" is overrated imo as to what type/brand etc as long as it is solid & the shooter is totally consistent in his set-up, i have saw no difference in groups shot from this rest vs. sand filled leather bags & such in the past. for the mz i see no advantage returning to battery as i have not figured out a way to load that thing horizontally & get off 5 quickly without disturbing the gun. ;D. i simply set-up each time as consistent as possible & put more shoulder tension without changing my grip on this 325be if you dont on this load you will get a "scope-eye" ;D bigmoose- i think i know what those "busterbullets" are gonna feel like!
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Post by Richard on Feb 21, 2011 20:42:28 GMT -5
Deadeye.............Yes, your target has improved and your post is getting more decipherable ;D Just curious..........is that particle board you are putting your paper targets on? I know you are not a benchrest shooter but at least a piece of cardboard under the target will get you a much cleaner looking hole. Homasote board is what most shooting organizations use for putting their targets on as they cut clean holes. Also, targets made from card stock rather than paper give much cleaner holes. Plywood and particle board are absolutely the worst backers due to the splintering I was also curious as to the ES of your velocities?? You often list velocities for shots with different amounts of powder, but what about ES when you run a string of shots? Long range accuracy is highly dependent on low ES's. Heavy bullets with a wide range of ES will give a lot of vertical stringing. This is very evident at 600 and 1,000 yards. 25 fps difference at the muzzle can relate to about 4" of vertical at 1,000 yards. (6.5 x 284 imp. with a 140 gr. VLD at 2900 fps) .........so, I would imagine a 325 gr. "non-VLD type bullet" at 2300 fps out at 404 yards would also be dropping like a rock Richard
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Post by bigmoose on Feb 22, 2011 10:35:25 GMT -5
I have one more 325 Parker that Deadeye sent me, I will shot it in my .50 with 71grs of H4198 as a penetration test, it did well sabotless 53grs sabotless VS 71grs with sabots [ I recieved the Harvester Black sabots yesterday] wonder which will drive deeper in the block. If I as a betting man, I'm not, I would go with the 71grs of H4198.
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Post by TGinPA on Feb 22, 2011 16:08:58 GMT -5
Pressure Trace PN45 IMR4895 75gr & 325be At deadeye’s request, I ran the above load as part of his development of powder loads for the Parker 325be bullet. Gage and Module Manufacturer = RSI USB model Trigger Sensitivity = 3, Strain Gage Voltage =4.9 Gage Factor =2.1 PSI Correction Factor: 0 Barrel Temp = 60-63 degrees F. measured at the sensor (IR). Rifle Stand: Caldwell Lead Sled Altitude: 450 ft Chronograph: Chrony Alpha Model 8 ft from muzzle. (8 fps added to all recorded velocities to correct for distance of chrony from muzzle.) Barrel Type: PacNor .45 Cal Muzzleloader Barrel OD = 1.06 in Barrel ID = .452 Breech Plug:Savage Std. (screw-in ventliner) ventliner orifice .033 in. Sensor dist fm BP= 1.1 in. Bullet Diam.= .458 in. Bullet Type = Parker 325be. Bullet weight = 325gr. ,knurled. Sabot: None wool wad for shots 1 & 2, Fiber wad for shot on 2nd trace (lower panel) Powder: All Traces: IMR4895 75gr Primer :Fed 209 Shot fm dirty barrel. Traces for the 1st two shots were markedly different both in timing and contour for reasons I cannot explain despite the fact that velocities were virtually identical. I fired a 3rd shot for the upper panel which looked almost identical to the second shot. Somehow, when I was downloading the panel, the computer ate the 3rd shot. So I repeated it on a second trace, shown in the lower panel using the remaining 325be which was the last of 7 deadeye had donated to me for testing. I hope there will be some observations as to the meaning of the second peaks in all traces. Perhaps this is more artifact. But I don’t think so. This load seemed safe in my barrel under the conditions present at the time of testing but may not be so under other circumstances. TGinPA
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Post by TGinPA on Feb 22, 2011 16:34:21 GMT -5
Pressure Trace 110/IMR4350 9/84gr 325ftx Again, for deadeye and his load development team, I tested a 325gr bullet with a duplex load using IMR4350 as the primary powder with N110 as the booster. Because I had run out of 325be bullets and because I was not shooting for accuracy, I thought it reasonable (and a less expensive) to substitute a 325ftx in the pressure test. This load seemed safe in my barrel under the conditions present at the time of testing but may not be so under other circumstances. Gage and Module Manufacturer = RSI USB model Trigger Sensitivity = 2, Strain Gage Voltage =4.9 Gage Factor =2.1 PSI Correction Factor: 0 Barrel Temp = 60 degrees F. measured at the sensor (IR). Rifle Stand: Caldwell Lead Sled Altitude: 450 ft Chronograph: Chrony Alpha Model 8 ft from muzzle. (8 fps added to all recorded velocities to correct for distance of chrony from muzzle.) Barrel Type: PacNor .45 Cal Muzzleloader Barrel OD = 1.06 in Barrel ID = .452 Breech Plug:Savage Std. (screw-in ventliner) ventliner orifice .033 in. Sensor dist fm BP=1.1 in. Bullet Diam.= .458 in. Bullet Type = Hornady 325ftx. Bullet weight = 325gr. unknurled. Sabot: None, Wad:.03x.462 fiber (Cabelas)lubed Powder: N110/IMR4350 10/84 gr. Primer :Fed 209 Shot fm dirty barrel .
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Post by deadeye on Feb 22, 2011 16:43:02 GMT -5
Deadeye.............Yes, your target has improved and your post is getting more decipherable ;D Just curious..........is that particle board you are putting your paper targets on? I know you are not a benchrest shooter but at least a piece of cardboard under the target will get you a much cleaner looking hole. Homasote board is what most shooting organizations use for putting their targets on as they cut clean holes. Also, targets made from card stock rather than paper give much cleaner holes. Plywood and particle board are absolutely the worst backers due to the splintering I was also curious as to the ES of your velocities?? You often list velocities for shots with different amounts of powder, but what about ES when you run a string of shots? Long range accuracy is highly dependent on low ES's. Heavy bullets with a wide range of ES will give a lot of vertical stringing. This is very evident at 600 and 1,000 yards. 25 fps difference at the muzzle can relate to about 4" of vertical at 1,000 yards. (6.5 x 284 imp. with a 140 gr. VLD at 2900 fps) .........so, I would imagine a 325 gr. "non-VLD type bullet" at 2300 fps out at 404 yards would also be dropping like a rock Richard richard-this is not particle board or plywood & what appears as a splinter in photo - is not. this is some kind of hard pressed cardboard out of a factory that was donated by a friend,got to make do. es test have not been done yet as we are in still in the testing phase but very close to the final load. the only thing im'concerned about es wise is it seems the knurling if tighter spikes the velocity but not the pressure,the swinglock die will be here soon & probably used for a check die to help eliminate the es deviation tg-thx for the trace & look forward to the 9/84 trace,i dont want to speculate on the 2nd spike,there are more knowledgable here to give possible answers on this.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Feb 22, 2011 17:02:49 GMT -5
IMO the N110/H4350 load has real promise from the first trace, we may be able to shoot enough powder to get rid of the secondary spike with these powders.
I am more convinced that the first load I recommended is close to what we need to see in trace.
I would test 10/90 & 10/95 both with N110/H4350 to move and/or greatly reduce the second spike
At 10/90 I would predict peak pressure at 33-35 kpsi and at 10/95 I would expect to see about 37-39 kpsi.
I know this probably sounds crazy, but pour some powder in it.......
Won't even tell you what speeds & recoil this should produce.
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Post by deadeye on Feb 22, 2011 18:12:20 GMT -5
primer/pressure update- per ph w/savageshooter i'm using a deep recessed plug possibly presenting approx 25% more to the primer cup than normal with a standard plug. we are no-where near dangerous pressure levels & when we go over 30-35kpsi approx we get the sign on the cup just beneath the rim, could just be the problem with this big bullet/hopefully///
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Post by ET on Feb 23, 2011 6:38:48 GMT -5
TGinPA
Have to confess I’m a little puzzled at what’s happening here. According to the unit the secondary spikes are occurring before the bullet leaves the barrel. Two of the traces show flat lines between the spikes but the one trace only shows a momentary drop in pressure not quite reaching the base line. Now the two traces that show flat lining also show the secondary spike is greater than the primary spike (not including last trace with 4350). Here too the rate of rise of the secondary spike appears sharper than the original spike rise. What this represents I’m not really sure and will hold back any partial thoughts for now. Also noted is the pressure rise rate between the two traces showing flat lining and not flat lining. The non-flat lining trace has a slower rise rate that appears to reduce the secondary spike affect.
Sorry I can only offer observations for now.
Ed
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Post by edge on Feb 23, 2011 8:00:20 GMT -5
Do these sabotless bullets require a short starter to get them going down the barrel?
edge.
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Post by TGinPA on Feb 23, 2011 10:16:15 GMT -5
Edge: After resizing a 325be (.448) I would not need a short starter unless I knurl, which I do. TG
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Post by deadeye on Feb 23, 2011 11:38:28 GMT -5
on my end-yes on the short starter,guessing approx 40-50lbs down the bore to the seating point. i pulled my scales out last night just to find the final approx seating pressure that i'm applying,approx 100-115lbs, i like to feel the wool wad give a little maybe even compressing some. i think tg is knurling as i am.dont know if that matters on these trace's
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Post by edge on Feb 23, 2011 11:38:42 GMT -5
I was just asking because I am a fan of sabotless requiring a short starter to ensure they grip the bore properly.
It seems as though your loads are having a hard time getting the pressure up to usable levels and thought that they may not be sealing well.
edge.
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Post by deadeye on Feb 23, 2011 12:42:25 GMT -5
**new ballgame & i think savageshooter is going to like this.** replaced plug to original-no recess, returned back to where i had pressure signs on the cup/w/recess plug @ 110/varget 7/70@2477fps w 325be- 110/varget 7/72@2469fps 7/75@2503 7/78@2552 7/81@2643 no pressure signs on all,it looks like the original plug was the ticket i'm guessing he is going to want to see a trace @7/81 after pouring some powder down that thang! ;D ;D
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Post by Savage Shooter on Feb 23, 2011 13:36:12 GMT -5
**new ballgame & i think savageshooter is going to like this.** replaced plug to original-no recess, returned back to where i had pressure signs on the cup/w/recess plug @ 110/varget 7/70@2477fps w 325be- 110/varget 7/72@2469fps 7/75@2503 7/78@2552 7/81@2643 no pressure signs on all,it looks like the original plug was the ticket i'm guessing he is going to want to see a trace @7/81 after pouring some powder down that thang! ;D ;D Good, gaining more ground daily......it would be good to see a curve on this to see about where we are now.
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