Bad Pacnor?

[barrycuda]

Has anyone ever had to send a barrel back to Pacnor? I had a .50 built to Jeff's specs to shoot .458 bullets. I shoot and reload 45-70 so I always have a bunch of bullets around. I received this barrel in late October and cannot get it to shoot. No rhyme or reason to the groups (3" to 6" @ 100 yds). I have tried Remington 300 HP, BO's, Hornady 300 hp and 325 ftx with 67 - 70g H4198, 60-62g N120 and 65-67g RL7 all with BCR. I have tried 3 different scopes. Warne bases and rings, all checked out. I have think I have eliminated everything except the barrel being bad. I shoot from a solid rest with a lead sled. Stock is bedded and barrel floated. I called Penny and she was going to have Casey or Chris call me but have not had a call back. I have 2 other Savage/Pacnors both in .45 that are tack drivers. What else can I try? Thanks.

Barry

[chuck41]

How did it shoot with the original barrel? Is this an ML10-II? What do the fired sabots look like?

[barrycuda]

It shot very good. It was just hard to load with the .458's. The sabots are in one piece with quite a bit of flare at the base.

Barry

[rkrobson]

What specs? ie, twist rate, bore(.505, .510) and 6 or 8 land and groove. Iam curious as I have a 1:20, .510, 6 land coming, Ray

[zakjak221]

Barry,

I got a .510 PacNor (Jeff Spec) in Nov. like yours.
When I first shot mine it was 70 degrees outside & I was rushin my shots due to time crunch for deer season. Duh!
Anyhow, I got 6 shots in 3 inches at 110 yds.
Load was with 67 gr's H4198/BCR/BO/CCI primers.
Also tried N120-57gr's and got similar results.
Went back for another range session--this time WAITING betw. shots and groups shrank to 1 1/4" at 110 yds.
Even tried my old standby load of 45 gr's of 5744/Rem. 300/BCR and this tighten it up to around an inch or less.
Took two does with it this gun season. One at 120 yds, one at 100 yds with Rem 300/67 gr H4198/BCR
I need to spend some more range time with it tho.
Hope this helps.
Mark

[etj401]

I see that you have tried different bullets and powder but have you tried different sabots?

[Richard]

Cuda..........I would like to offer some help, but the only .50 PN I have shot was zakjak's when I installed the barrel. At that , I only fired a few shots just to get it on paper for him but three shots at 100 did go under 1.5". I believe that was with Remington's and H-4198 with black crush ribs. It just seems the .45" shoot sub 1" from the get go . Jeff on the other hand seems to have had good luck with his two
It would seem that a bad barrel (particularly in a custom one such as your PN) would have to relate to variations in the bore dimension at some point. Most problematic would be overly loose at the muzzle. So, does the bullet/sabot feel like the seating pressure is the same all the way down? You might try pushing bullet/sabot thru from the breech end and see it it is still as tight when it exits? Have you tried my (SW's) method of using a few drops of bore cleaner on a patch followed by a dry patch and see it that helps?
Richard

[jeff]

I have found that mine like vent liners below .031 Ive shot many 1" groups with a few powders.
No ramrod in the gun when shooting??
Cleaning the B/P every 20 shots??
Is the bedding job new to the barrel??
recoil lug new or savage stamp??
Is there a bind in the stock/action??

I highly doubt its the barrel. Its something simple as in one or more of the above.
Jeff~

[dave d.]

:)barry you have gotten alot of good advice and i have to agree with jeff i dont think its the barrel but you never know.give some different sabots a try and check your mounts and scope.let us know what happens.

[10ga]

Barry, I have some different primers if ya wanna try something different. Got Win. CCI and Fed. access to Rems too. Call me if ya need em. Why don't you drop some BH209 in and see it that helps just to check the accuracy. Have you tried loading a patched roundball just to get a feel for the barrel? Why don't you try it in a different stock. Keep all updated. Bob

[zakjak221]

Barry,

BTW, I do swab every 3-4 shots per Richard's 4 drop Rem bore cleaner method,followed by clean patch. Did seem to make a difference for me in groups.
Keep us posted!

Mark

[barrycuda]

Thanks for all the replies fellows. The stock was bedded by Richard. I did not change the recoil lug because I did not want to re-bed. It is a Savage recoil lug. I use Pete's plug. The gun shot MOA @ 100 yds with the Savage barrel. The sabot/bullet is a little hard to start compared to the Savage barrel which surprises me a bit due to the .510 bore. Once started the resistance feels consistent all the way down. Believe me guys I shoot a lot. If these groups were stringing or 2" to 3" I would say they just need some fine tuning but that is not the case. I really, really don't want this to be a barrel issue but I am at wits end. The only thing I have not tried is a different sabot but every thing else has worked great with the BCR. The Savage barrel has always shot very good as a matter of fact that was my hunting gun because I love the BOs. I ordered this barrel because of the BO and was hoping to get better groups out past 200 yds after talking to Jeff. I will wait to talk with Pacnor on Monday and see what they say. Richard, maybe after hunting season I can send you the gun with some bullets to see if you can figure it out. I really did not need this barrel but for some reason this web site causes me to spend a lot of money but it is something I love to do (not spend money). Thanks for all of your help.

Barry

[tar12]

Barry,
Let me get this straight. You originally had Richard bed your stock with your OEM barrel? You have since then installed a Pac-Nor barrel with out rebedding? If you did not rebed this may very well be your problem as the barrel nut is imprinted into the bedding compound and if that barrel nut is not returned to its original location it will actually ride up out of the bedding-not good for accuracy....

[barrycuda]

Hey tar,
I was told that if i did not change the recoil lug I would not need to re-bed. Maybe that was wrong. Thanks for your reply.

Barry

[pposey]

well if you have the recoil lug in the exact and I mean exact position it was in before you would be ok but that would be really hard to do

[barrycuda]

I think I have an unbedded stock around here somewhere. I will try that if the wind ever stops blowing.

[jeff]

MY HUNTING PACNOR IS IN AN UNBEDED PLASTIC STOCK SAVAGE STOCK. NO FRILLS ONLY GUT PILES. ;D ;D
JEFF~

[bloodtrailer]

I still say shoot when cool then wait (temp over 40 15-20 min, below 40 10min) between shots. HEAT in the barrel kills your groups, as long as your shooting sabots! I get my best groups at temps below 45 , 66grns H4198 rem 300 hbcr less than an inch 100 2-3inch 200yrds(1 group cut the same hole at 200yards I wish I could Shoot like that every time ) or my new best load barns O 300 h long black sabot(not crushed rib) 68 H 4198 (3 shots less that an inch. :o200yrds last Friday!) If you look on the old board most would work loads up in Feb. and march to keep the barrels cool( I don't shoot well with the COOLING ROD some do.)

[ET]

Barry

An area that seldom gives a problem is the muzzle crown. But after having my 10ML-II muzzle machined to my specification I also experienced difficulty with group accuracy. After close examination I found a few very small burrs left from machining and once I carefully got rid of them life was good.
Just a suggestion to carefully look at the bore entrance.
Also have to ask, does the bore entrance lightly shave your sabots when loading?

Tar12 makes an interesting point about bedding if the barrel nut has left an impression in the bedding. But if the bedding doesn’t exceed into the barrel nut location then it will not affect the outcome. With my synthetic stock my bedding goes as far as the recoil lug and tip of the recoil lug. After bedding I have adjusted the barrel with one turn and retightened the barrel nut with no change to accuracy.


Ed

[edge]

Good point on the barrel nut, also try to have the front rest over the lug and see if that helps your groups.

edge.

[tar12]

Dec 5, 2010 8:48:31 GMT -5 barrycuda said:

Hey tar,
I was told that if i did not change the recoil lug I would not need to re-bed. Maybe that was wrong. Thanks for your reply.

Barry

I tried that with when I put my .45 Pac on. It was not even close to being right as it was riding up on the bedding.I checked this with marking fluid and there was a seriuus amount of barrel not making contact where it should.I had it redone and all is well.I also checked the new bedding job in the same way and got complete coverage.

[edge]

If it was fully bedded then perhaps just dremel out the NUT and barrel area only. The rest of the bedding in the action and lug area should be perfect.

edge.

[tar12]

Dec 5, 2010 13:43:28 GMT -5 edge said:

If it was fully bedded then perhaps just dremel out the NUT and barrel area only. The rest of the bedding in the action and lug area should be perfect.

edge.

I was going to do that but I am anal about things being "right",besides that Henry Ball and Rayhill strongly suggest bedding 3-4 inches of the barrel to support them long heavy tubes.I have not shot one with the barrel not bedded so I have nothing to compare with BUT I saw accuracy improvement that was substantial in those that had the 3-4 inches of barrel bedded.

[Richard]

Let me set one thing straight! First of all, I never bed the barrel nut! Period! So, that is a non issue. As far as the recoil lug? Lets just say this. There is a very slight degree of "slop" in the receiver where the "bump" in the recoil lug could shift side to side MAYBE a few thousandths. That being said, when tightening down the forward action screw, that little bit would simply be shaved off. The action itself and the relationship of the lug to the abutment is going to be the same. So, unless a different lug was used, bedding should not be an issue. What we are really interested in is that the face of the lug makes firm contact with the bedding and shifting that lug a few thou. will not change that. (yes, less than the thickness of a sheet of compter paper)
Richard

[tar12]

There you go, it is not the barrel nut.What is the loading resistance like compared to the OEM barrel with like componets?

[barrycuda]

Tar,
Once started the resistance seems consistant all the way down. It is a little hard to get started.

Barry

[10ga]

Barry, I've got some red, yellow, blue, orange, and black sabots. Call and I'll drop off a selection for you to try. May not be the gun. Easy to change sabots/bullets/primers than anything else. One of them might start better and solve that if it's a problem. Call me at home if you don't have my cell #. Way the wind is I won't be out hunting again til Wednesday. Bob

[jeff]

For fun I loaded 43 gr N110 and 300 gr XTP in HP24 sabots 6" groups at 100 yards. changed to bl cr rib went to 1 1/2 groups. sabots can make a world of difference.
Jeff~

[spoonover]

Barry, I had my 1/4" recoil lug welded to my switch barrel action. When done there was no testing to see if the 300 WSM, 270WSM and the 260 AI (two bolts) would still shoot properly. Weld was very small and nothing got hot so I thought nothing could have changed. Cleaned the bedding out with marking fluid and a dermal where it was touching (one small pin head spot) the new weld.

It was ready, the new 50 cal smokeless was screwed on the Remington mod 7 switch barrel?

A lot of shots were wasted no loads were working but one (2") and the recoil was more than I could handle, bad barrel?

Proven scopes are important so two scopes went on, no culprit there.

Deer center fire season was here, so off to the gun range with the other barrels. Screwed on my favorite WSM (270 WSM) along with the scope that it was dialed in last, found out my pet load was shooting 4" groups which were normally just over an inch.

Completed new bed job from a to z with hopes of retrieving my accuracy back. The 50 is working like a custom barrel should. Two inch groups and smaller are common with most loads.

If the new barrel was hard to spin on, it could have some effect on the old bedding. Some of the custom barrels have tall threads and can be hard to screw in, putting a small but disruptive metal displacement over the bedding area. Make sure foreign dirt is cleaned from the bedding, if a good job is done on the bedding I have found taking the stock off and on will not change point of impact as long as there is no dirt sneaking in the bedding area!

Pacnor would not send out a bad barrel, (99% confident) do not go there yet!

[boarhog]

Barry,
I have a feeling that you have already checked this, but your problem sure reminds me of my groups before I learned that the front scope base was touching the recoil lug. After filing a bevel on the base front, that 50 cal went from 4-8" groups to less than 2".
Boarhog