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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2010 16:49:31 GMT -5
ooof illinois over the rocky mountains just because they allow smokeless? No thanks!
Edge, there isnt any touting. Just facts. The subject was cheap muzzle loaders
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Post by dwhunter on Nov 3, 2010 16:53:28 GMT -5
I was wondering when someone would rescue RB's highjacked thread.
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Post by edge on Nov 3, 2010 17:00:18 GMT -5
SNIP Edge, there isnt any touting. Just facts. The subject was cheap muzzle loaders WRONG! This thread is about why the Savage is no longer being manufactured! edge. |
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Post by rrbou on Nov 3, 2010 17:20:51 GMT -5
I got into smokeless for a couple of reasons.
First: Extended range. Although I shot one at a little over 200 yards with subs.
Second; I did not want to look through all that smoke to see what happened after the shot.
I really like my Savage now that I spent a load of money on a new stock, bedding and finding loads that shoot excellent.
But I despise the accu-trigger and now shoot a rem 700 45 that is as fine a MZ loader that a man could own. I will probably never use subs or black powder again.
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Post by rbinar on Nov 3, 2010 19:06:13 GMT -5
Hey im only 7" low at 200 yards and a 300gr Thor pushed by only 100gr Blackhorn. What ever happened when shooting was a skill, seems like people these days want it easier so they dont have to improve. And 200 yards under hunting conditions is a LONG shot with any firearm. No need to foul my barrel for it to shoot tight. Checked yesterday and then double checked today. No more oil in my bores to make things screwy like that. If i want to shoot flat line out to 300 yards, i'd take my centerfire. Well young man (and I only say that because you provided a picture so I know for sure) your argument is valid and if you prefer another style rifle no one is going to tell you otherwise. However consider some things not to change your mind but to see it from another person's view. The powder you are shooting BH 209 (I think you wrote) is smokeless powder. I know it is a cleverly disguised smokeless powder that makes a cloud when you shoot, so it is legal in your state but it is nonetheless a fuel not near any type of black powder. As proof of my concept I offer the fact that as you put more powder in the bore the bullet speed keeps rising. Some are reporting speeds to 2600fps with 140 grain loads and a 200 grain bullet. So you currently shoot smokeless: how could you argue against it? Well maybe it's the rifle itself. You may not like the Savage? OK I get that a rifle is a reflection of what you like. No one can make me like something I don't want to. You won that part. How about the issue of shooting skills? Well your shooting a very modern version of a muzzle loader. If shooting skills are so important part of the picture why don't you go back to a Hawken?, or better yet a flint lock? hey you look man enough to go all the way back to the match lock. OK I'll just say it straight, I think you know most are going to go with as modern a rifle as possible and you just brought it up for the argument sake. You mention using your center fire for 300 yards shots and I have one of those too. But have you thought about the states where hunting is restricted to shot gun or muzzle loading only? What are you going to use there? OK you're not going to those states, well what about the hunters that have to hunt there? Should they be restricted to 100 yard shots? Finally you're in love with the accuracy of your rifle. I wouldn't have it any other way. If you don't like that thing then break it over a stump or sell it, I don't like inaccurate rifles. But even at that it not special! That is to say I have 4 Savages that could blow that thing so far into the woods you'd be hard pressed to find the parts. This last part is just kidding because I like to have fun. But if you were here we'd be doing the old Ford and Chevy thing, sorta like I wouldn't drive that if I had to push mine. But really I can shoot circles around you any day, no you can't... yes I can... no you can't ..... peice of junk rifle..... what you say ..... man I'm going to ...... Oh well. |
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Post by killitgrillit on Nov 3, 2010 19:21:03 GMT -5
I didn't think scopes were legal in colorado
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2010 19:32:55 GMT -5
Hey im only 7" low at 200 yards and a 300gr Thor pushed by only 100gr Blackhorn. What ever happened when shooting was a skill, seems like people these days want it easier so they dont have to improve. And 200 yards under hunting conditions is a LONG shot with any firearm. No need to foul my barrel for it to shoot tight. Checked yesterday and then double checked today. No more oil in my bores to make things screwy like that. If i want to shoot flat line out to 300 yards, i'd take my centerfire. If shooting skills are so important part of the picture why don't you go back to a Hawken?, or better yet a flint lock? Oh ive been shooting my Hawken a bit, ;D And my flintlock too after i got new sights. This is an old target picture from 40 yards off hand.  Rolled him over on his back with that shot placement!  Now getting back to the main story. Savages ML just didnt catch on. A new guy shooting smokeless powder is a very scary situation IMO, its no where near as forgiving as black powder. A double charge thats accidently fired can kill you where as a double charge with blackhorn209 or any other sub will mainly just knock the snot out of you. Maybe savage has had some experience with this and decided it just wasnt worth a lawsuit over someone blowing it up and getting hurt. I mean hell, Knight got nailed for $2,000,000 lawsuit just because they failed to mention that a smoldering ember could still be burning down in the breech and could ignite the powder when you are pouring down the next charge. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2010 19:47:39 GMT -5
like comparing a mustang gt to a focus, both get you there but it aint the same ride
move east and then lets see what you would LIKE to shoot
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Post by tdillinger on Nov 3, 2010 19:48:18 GMT -5
Cheap rifles won't/can't do the same job... can a cheap BP gun use smokeless? Can it achieve the same velocity, with accuracy? No. Will it kill a deer just as dead at 50 yds? Yes, assuming it is sighted in... 150? Most likely... But is the Accura and Apex really less expensive? Triumph or Omega? Every ML has it's issues... advertising overcomes those. Savage didn't really push the ML2, pretty simple. Sure cheap guns can do the same job. As to the smokeless powder issue, Blackhorn209. A cheap $100 CVA Hunterbolt shooting blackhorn209 and 245gr Powerbelts @ 100 yards. Ive shot a 10 shot group with that set up that could be covered with a 1.5" orange pastie.  A bit more expensive at $188 anda 15 year old behind the rifle at 100 yards with 80gr BH209, 250gr slickload sabots.   Lifetime warranty, Shoots great with Blackhorn209, Accurate. No need for a heavy smokeless rifle IMO. I wont bother posting pics of the Accura/Optimas targets. Although this one will be posted later on   I have an inline that i paid less than you did and Blackhorn powder tested and certified for their powder and i get better grouping with 250 gr bullet. i own several ML and none are as good as the 10ml. Im not 15 like that matters, so what is your point of your post? you can shoot 100 yds and clean your barrel? BH 209 is good powder but smokeless is smokeless. if its not legal in yous state dont use it. My flintlock does clover leafs at 100 yds. 80 grs volumetric ffg with ffff in the pan pushing a round ball and patch.  |
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Post by spaniel on Nov 3, 2010 19:52:22 GMT -5
FG, You could always move to a state that allows smokeless. ;D This was always an inherent limitation. I did not even give Savage a serious look until I moved out of Michigan for this very reason. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2010 19:52:43 GMT -5
uh oh better not say that to many times about your traditional flintlock clover leafing at 100 yards. Remember, ya traditional guys dont want scopes on muzzle loaders because you say its not fair because the accuracy increase Imagine what'd it do with a scope! One hole 10 shot groups im bettin! |
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Post by Flatland Hunter on Nov 3, 2010 19:52:44 GMT -5
80 grs volumetric ffg with ffff in the pan pushing a round ball and patch. Off subject but wouldn't that technically be considered duplexing? Not so new now is it... |
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Post by grouse on Nov 3, 2010 19:56:57 GMT -5
The Savage ML has been more consistent with BH209 then smokeless powders for me. Wait a minute, BH209 is a smokeless powder with some crap on it to make it smoke.
Rick, 140grns of Bh209 by volume has produced an avg MV of 2533 out of several 45 Knight Disc Elites with 200grn bullets. I guess when you really think about it, BH209 hasn't really helped the Savage ML.
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Post by tdillinger on Nov 3, 2010 20:00:06 GMT -5
80 grs volumetric ffg with ffff in the pan pushing a round ball and patch. Off subject but wouldn't that technically be considered duplexing? Not so new now is it... No its not duplexing it is a single load down the barrel, a flint lock has a pan outside the barrel to ignight the barrel. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2010 20:02:06 GMT -5
Dillinger,
LOL the duplexing comment i think is an inside joke. Theres some history behind that one.
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Post by tdillinger on Nov 3, 2010 20:03:08 GMT -5
uh oh better not say that to many times about your traditional flintlock clover leafing at 100 yards. Remember, ya traditional guys dont want scopes on muzzle loaders because you say its not fair because the accuracy increase Imagine what'd it do with a scope! One hole 10 shot groups im bettin |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2010 20:05:08 GMT -5
same here in co. Open sights only during muzzle loading season.
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Post by tdillinger on Nov 3, 2010 20:07:44 GMT -5
no an in line muzzle loader is not a flintlock.
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Post by Flatland Hunter on Nov 3, 2010 20:08:53 GMT -5
Off subject but wouldn't that technically be considered duplexing? Not so new now is it... No its not duplexing it is a single load down the barrel, a flint lock has a pan outside the barrel to ignight the barrel. Makes it even more dangerous! At least Savage duplexing happens where it is safely contained... |
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Post by deadon on Nov 3, 2010 20:37:48 GMT -5
You know, I am not good at this BUT I care about Dougs. I posted a thread Titled why did Doug leave Dougs. I also stated in that thread that I had an uneasy feeling about Dougs. It was NOT because of the whipping I feel I took from a very limited few for asking what they considered too many questions. It was because of a feeling------ IMHO--------- that we were becoming waaaaay too politically correct, maybe waaaaay TOO all inclusive!!!! This is a smokeless muzzle loader forum. We cannot win over the un winnable . Again IMHO , there are thousands of forums for everyone else BUT only ONE for us and that is DOUGS--- Period ----- Rusty
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Post by edge on Nov 3, 2010 20:39:57 GMT -5
no an in line muzzle loader is not a flintlock. Don't be so sure! From: www.whitemuzzleloading.com/myweb2/images/whiterifles/What%20Is%20A%20Muzzleloader.htmTo further traditionalize the in-line, the tower of London collections contain an in-line flintlock smooth-bore that was made by a Bohemian gunsmith named Stanislaus Paczelt in 1738. Yes, you read that right, 1738. The action of the gun is almost exactly the same as the modern in-line also. It utilizes coil springs and a shooting and cocking trigger, the cocking trigger to pull the striker containing the flint backward to the cocked position and the shooting trigger to fire the gun. The striker holding the flint drives forward under the tension of the coil spring and hits a frizzen that is hinged onto the barrel breach, rotating up out of the way when hit by the flint, exposing the small pan in the breechplug of the barrel. |
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Post by ewc on Nov 3, 2010 22:38:20 GMT -5
You know, I am not good at this BUT I care about Dougs. I posted a thread Titled why did Doug leave Dougs. I also stated in that thread that I had an uneasy feeling about Dougs. It was NOT because of the whipping I feel I took from a very limited few for asking what they considered too many questions. It was because of a feeling------ IMHO--------- that we were becoming waaaaay too politically correct, maybe waaaaay TOO all inclusive!!!! This is a smokeless muzzle loader forum. We cannot win over the un winnable . Again IMHO , there are thousands of forums for everyone else BUT only ONE for us and that is DOUGS--- Period ----- Rusty Don't worry with it Rusty. You are with friends..... |
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Post by DBinNY on Nov 3, 2010 22:46:07 GMT -5
Sorry to interrupt this exchange of trivial irrelevance but here's what I think: 1)The Savage ML II appealed to me because I live in area where you can't use CF rifles (on deer) but you can use smokeless in MLs; 2) Having hand loaded ammo for CF rifles since I was in high school I wasn't the least bit concerned about weighing powder charges for a ML; 3) I'm not a huge fan of having to clean guns every time I use them; 4) I like the performance; 5) I'll admit it's a little heavy.
I wonder if Savage chose not to go head over heels advertising the rifle in hopes of selling them to the type of folks that would actively seek them out. This rifle does have an annoying habit of bulging the barrel when double loaded. We are all human beings and we all make mistakes. As evidence, this has happened to some of the most respected and conscientious people on this board. No doubt their experiences, and their open sharing of them, has saved many of the rest of us from the same fate. IMO, on average, the people on this board tend to be detail oriented and I would suggest that there is a significant portion of the hunting population that are not as inclined along those lines.
Seems like every once in a while a new guy would come on the board and ask if it's OK to load 100gr volume of Bullseye (or something to that effect). All smokeless powder is the same, isn't it? The scary part is that there are people out there that would never ask and just go ahead and do it. There are just more ways to screw up and too many candidates for the Darwin awards. I'm not sure Savage wanted them buying the ML II.
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Post by rbinar on Nov 3, 2010 23:32:11 GMT -5
If shooting skills are so important part of the picture why don't you go back to a Hawken?, or better yet a flint lock? Oh ive been shooting my Hawken a bit, ;D And my flintlock too after i got new sights. This is an old target picture from 40 yards off hand. Hey like dude if you keep at it you'll actually get a deer with that smoke pole that I'd take a picture of, LOL What are you going to do with that scrawny thing, mount it? Man I don't mean to jack your deer or anything like that I know it's a good kill for a lot of people. But like I told you it's a Ford and Chevy kind of thing and your a Chevy guy in the sea of Ford so you gonna take some stuff. You should know that smokeless has taken on and is popular to some extent. There are a ton of folks who shoot it and that will grow even if there's no Savage. Also what you are doing is what had a great effect on the Savage as a viable factory rifle. That is shooting a smokeless powder like BH 209 that's only a mere shadow of a BP substitute. Again I don't see you grinding smokeless when that's what you're shooting, probably you got a bad taste in your mouth because that deer suffered 100 points of ground shrinkage? OK I apologize I just could not resist taking another poke at your know it all attitude. I do like the fact you're taking some does. We'd all be better off if better management procedures were taken. Keep talking brother you're making my day. Haven't laughed this much in two months. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2010 23:57:56 GMT -5
haha @ know it all attitude. Now that is funnnnnny!!
That deer was a trophy in my book with a flinter! Public land mulie. First year with a flintlock too.
Heres what we go after in new mexico,
I forget how many bucks were on the side of this mountain but it was a LOT. 18+ i believe.
Before blackhorn209, i was taking grief for shooting american pioneer. If it wernt for blackhorn, i'd still be shooting APP. very accurate and consistent powder in my rifles.
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Post by rbinar on Nov 4, 2010 1:33:38 GMT -5
haha @ know it all attitude. Now that is funnnnnny!! That deer was a trophy in my book with a flinter! Public land mulie. First year with a flintlock too. Heres what we go after in new mexico, I forget how many bucks were on the side of this mountain but it was a LOT. 18+ i believe. Before blackhorn209, i was taking grief for shooting american pioneer. If it wernt for blackhorn, i'd still be shooting APP. very accurate and consistent powder in my rifles. I like the link! I know what it's like to take grief for a shooting choice. For instance when I introduced duplex loads to the 50 caliber Savage it was like I'd stepped on the flag or gave nuclear secrets to North Korea. You know duplex was never an original idea. I got it from the old original version of the Lyman reloading manual for black powder cartridges that was in print for 35 years. If you have a copy you'd see 10% duplex loads with Imr-SR4759 (a smokeless powder) and black powder. People shot those loads for a generation without so much as a rumor of terrible occurances. I gave the suggestion here and within six months I was getting calls from all over America on how it was so dangerous somebody was surely going to get killed. Of course now there's been maybe 1/2 a million shots fired with duplex and not one report of actual problem but folks still say I'm a terror. It kinda of makes you wonder why? I mean it was a noted practice started by a well known company and used safely for years. The rifles (older black powder models) were some of the most pressure sensitive ever made. Why did folks suddenly know it was terribly dangerous? It kinda makes you think that people will jump on you for anything they don't like or understand, won't they? |
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Post by pposey on Nov 4, 2010 8:45:57 GMT -5
Well I'm lazy and liked being able to shoot the savage for weeks and not break it down to clean,,,
I also like to shoot small groups and at longer ranges,
I also like to kill deer well,,
The savage fits the bill on all of those.
I think sales probably never made Savage that much on the ML2, that and smokeless never caught on that well with the masses,,,,, I am the only guy I know of around here that has a ML2,,, everyone likes mine, but they all fall into the hunt with it once a year and put it away group.
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Post by chuck41 on Nov 4, 2010 9:16:39 GMT -5
Well I'm lazy and liked being able to shoot the savage for weeks and not break it down to clean,,, I also like to shoot small groups and at longer ranges, I also like to kill deer well,, The savage fits the bill on all of those. I think sales probably never made Savage that much on the ML2, that and smokeless never caught on that well with the masses,,,,, I am the only guy I know of around here that has a ML2,,, everyone likes mine, but they all fall into the hunt with it once a year and put it away group. Gee!!! I could have written the same post. Same story here exactly. |
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Post by youp50 on Nov 4, 2010 10:03:54 GMT -5
...and I am of Bohemian descent.
... and I got my ML-II for 250 second hand.
... AND its fun to shoot a 300 gr projectile at 2400 fps from a ML.
...and I am in the market for a second hand Chevy truck. Perhaps if some long lost family member had only patented the idea .... I would buy a new one.
Unless some other member invested in Henry Js or Edsels.
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Post by Richard on Nov 4, 2010 10:05:47 GMT -5
Frontiergander (or maybe goose?) Sorry  And like RB posted how he got jumped on about duplex loads??? I just got the same treatment for Triplex loads ;D Its just an unknown to 98% so right off, ITS DANGEROUS ;D The work quite well for me.............They were obviously the choice when the .454 Cassul Magnum came out a number of years back And by the way.............LOOSE the earing and stick to the BP boards since that is where your heart is anyway. Were I living in Colorado, I only bow hunted there a couple of years, I would also be shooting BP rifles in that season, but during the regular firearms season, it would be the Savage or other smokeless ML's. And yes, that was a nice mule deer but then there of a lot of nice video's on mule deer, and whitetails and elk............etc, etc??? Your problem is you are trying to preach to the WRONG bunch of shooters and making NO head way! ;D Getting back to the real intent of the post..............Savage just did not promote the rifle, it was a little pricey and there were a ton of in-line that could be had for 1/3rd. the price. For the few times most shot them, they could put up with the cleaning. While you in all probability hunt Colorado's rifle season with a center fire EARGOSPLITTENLOUDENBOOMER (probably a 300 Ultra Mag or similar cartridge) Where I would be content using a smokeless ML with the One Shot One Kill mentality. You can go ahead and RAG on, but know full well that your words are falling on deaf ears on this forum! Richard Richard |
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