|
Post by rbinar on Nov 2, 2010 9:33:01 GMT -5
8-)Now that 10ML production stop has been with us for some days it seems like time to discuss why, rather than what. These are reasons that seem logical to me, you may have a different take.
The primary cause should be a surprise to no one: low sales. However there are reasons for such sales. Here in Arkansas there are some 10ML users and the law is very non-concerned with limiting it’s use. It is not that popular (though perhaps more than some other states) because the message never got out. By that I mean, at the range there is always someone shooting who never heard of the concept let alone the 10ML.This would be muzzle loader shooters not someone there to check out their hand gun.
A second reason is that muzzle loader shooters in particular seem to want “cheap” rifles. This is probably an echo of the past. Most seem to think you shouldn’t shoot a muzzle loader more than 75 or 100 yards so why spend much money when accuracy is the secondary concern? That’s particularly a wonder especially this year when I’ve never heard of so many lost or hard to track deer shot with “cheap” muzzle loaders. Another reason for “cheap" syndrome is season time. With just short of 2 weeks per year allotted that seems odd as well, because rifle season only runs for about 30 days. I don’t know if the “cheap” syndrome is a problem in muzzle loader only states but I’d guess it’s fairly universal.
Before I break out in “blame the consumer” it should be noted shooters have the right and necessity (if they think it makes sense) to make choices on their own ideas, not mine. So these are presented as a weakness in the smokeless system rather than “stupid” consumers. Trying to tell buyers what they like will end up in ruin every time. As for Savage I’m also not beating them there are a lot of other factory muzzle loaders not in production, it would be wrong to say they are much different from other arms manufactures.
There are more reasons and they will come up later. This post is about only two: 1 lack of public understanding and, 2 shooter economic preference.
|
|
|
Post by savagebrother on Nov 2, 2010 11:12:06 GMT -5
rb i think you hit the nail on the head, so many of my friends have watched me shoot 2 1/4" groups at 200 yards and then say to well i cant see spending all that money for a muzzleloader. i think most hunters want simple no brainer muzzleloaders, so the guys with the pellets and the sabots really hit upon what the average muzzleloader hunter wants. guess they made things too easy this time. sb
|
|
|
Post by wilmsmeyer on Nov 2, 2010 11:29:25 GMT -5
Agree with you RB....
Although a friend recently spent as much on a T/C gun.
Marketing also has played a big factor. Or lack of it.
This weapon is definitely a "niche" gun that presents problems for some that must shoot smoking powder due to rules...or bore fitting bullets. Those folks can bend the rules using the Savage, but do so by ending up with a load that could be shot out of any ML.
I will say that this gun has spawned enough interest that others are having no problems making smokeless ML conversions for many different existing platforms, barrel makers are helping too.
Yes it's too bad. However, Savage could have done a much better job at pushing this product. But they were probably smart and realized that it would be a very hard market to dominate with not enough return on investment to make it worth it. So they plugged along the whole time being bad mouthed by nay-sayers and such.
I will be curious to see what you have to say RB...regarding other reasons....why are you so elusive about them?
|
|
|
Post by 10ga on Nov 2, 2010 12:41:59 GMT -5
Considering the cost of top end MLs, smokeless or not, the MLII is in the MID price range. But RB is correct. I've had many a ML shooter say why the $ if I'm only gonna shoot it 1 time at deer. They have 1/2 pack of pellets and bullets from last year, 3 shots to check the gun and 5 loads to hunt with, they're happy as pigs in mud. Well it's different for me. With shotgun or ML only here, guess which I carry most of the time. Yeah, some of the slug shooters claim how good their guns shoot but when it's put up or shut up vs. SMLs they seem to alibi or fade. Got 2 MLIIs and Encore conversion and will be looking at a project for next year. Will address that in Jan. and begin search for action to start with. May be able to pick up another MLII on "clearance" somewhere. That be a good start. Best to all, 10
|
|
|
Post by bloodtrailer on Nov 2, 2010 14:16:59 GMT -5
I've got two ML-2s both shoot very well for .50s. As long as Savage still backs the product with parts and warranty I'll be a happy shooter! If the go the route of Knight who stopped making parts for my MK-85(thumb hole stock) I'll be looking else where . There are several used ML-2 out there it might be time to pick them up before prices go up or are hard to find.(I'VE Got my two!)
|
|
|
Post by bigmoose on Nov 2, 2010 17:08:04 GMT -5
A small part of the problem is all the false info about smokelees, Major retail companies like Cabelas and Bass Pro Shop, refusing to sell them. I asked a sales person in the firearms department of Bass Pro, about them carrying the Savage, "they are not safe, you can't use smokeless powder in ML's. This clown didn't know who was buried in Grant's Tomb. but he giving advice about guns The only firearms sales folks that knew about guns, where the ones in Fairbanks, at sportsman warehouse, all were hunters, including a young lady, I'm sure in other part of the country, you will find the same situation, but not in South Florida.
|
|
|
Post by riddleofsteel on Nov 2, 2010 17:15:03 GMT -5
Good point
I have demonstrated the accuracy and clean shooting of my 10ML II for years at our gun club and still there are no more than one or two that appear on the shooting line even just before MLer season.
The written in stone rule "Do not use smokeless powder in ANY muzzle loader" is a difficult reef to navigate. I have friends that are still waiting for mine to blow up. One even asked me if he could take out an insurance policy on me.
|
|
|
Post by 12ptdroptine on Nov 2, 2010 19:18:41 GMT -5
I am glad as all getouy that I have a MLII now . I just called my son and told him not to even thimk about getting rid of his.. They are both PacNor .45 conversions.... Before this SS barrels were selling here for $50 bucks as take-offs.... Also glad as all getout we still have our's. Gonna call soon and stock up on breech plugs and ventliner's. It makes me sad that this has happened.... I researched(lurked ) here for awhile before taking the plung on one...then the same before I took the PacNor on. Never been sorry for either. But sales and uneducated naysayers have dealt this blow. The economy is most likely the main culprit...So I will watch the shops and show's... Maybe pick up another one... Maybe look into a custom barrel for my Encore.... tis a sad evening here....
|
|
|
Post by howa on Nov 2, 2010 19:23:42 GMT -5
I got my two, one of them I just bought on here about 3 weeks ago, little did I know how happy I would be with that purchase!
|
|
|
Post by tdillinger on Nov 2, 2010 19:41:29 GMT -5
I think its the economy +. I was looking into getting an inline ML and somehow found a thread to Randy who talked about Savage, and then Chuck. I found one on clearance at Cabelas and learned before i recieved it it was bp only. I returned it and found my MLII on gun broker. I Have never seen to this day an add for a 10MLI or II. Only conversation via the web. I sold a bow and a fly rod to get this inline and i have no regrets. It shoots and hits exactly where the cross hairs are covering. Savage never advertised, how many hunting shows have you seen the 10ML on? TC advertises their product heavily. Sometime Marketing Pays off, however during down sizing etc marketing is genarlly cut first and then production. 10ML's are made with good quality more so than other Savages. I hope Savage reconsiders their choice of product to carry.
|
|
|
Post by littlejoe on Nov 2, 2010 19:48:33 GMT -5
Advertising is what failed the MLII. The product is superior in every way than any other commercially produced muzzle loader. Members on this board have nearly begged savage to put the gun on a hunting show.They have begged for a factory .45. Savage's bread and butter has always been bolt action centerfire rifles not muzzleloaders. If the hunting show viewers had any inkling that the MLII was as superior to what they are being force fead, Savage wouldn't have been able to keep up with demand. Prime example anyone that buys a TC Icon because they think they are the best bolt rifle you can buy. With a gun that is the best available MZ in the MLII ,the obvious failure was Savages poor marketing. Thank god for the Ball family and god please save this board as it is in my opinion the absolute best resource available for smokeless muzzleloading PERIOD. Thanks to all for the valuable tips and loading data over the years and the frienships I have made. LittleJoe
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2010 20:30:09 GMT -5
when my friend called Joe the other day he said they had a couple of rifle models that they just couldnt make enough of. couple this with the fact of paying royaltys every year it just makes good business sense to halt a low volume product like the ml II. the man that runs Savage is pretty smart or they wouldnt be where they are in the market. that said, the mlII colld have benefited greatly from some ad dollars......my 2 cnts
|
|
|
Post by olsmokey on Nov 2, 2010 20:58:45 GMT -5
I think bigmoose hit it, the Scheels, Bass Pro, and Cabela's all say there's to much liability involved. The only place I could order one was from a mom and pop gun shop that didn't even know they made a smokeless muzzleloader till I had them call about one. A little consumer education on savages part might have helped too. By the way, has anyone done any testing useing BP or a substitute to see how they shoot?
|
|
|
Post by rbinar on Nov 2, 2010 23:48:34 GMT -5
I will be curious to see what you have to say RB...regarding other reasons....why are you so elusive about them? Elusive? I'm about as elusive as the Rocky Mountains. I'm not trying to be less that totally frank. What I'm trying to do is make posts that are not feature magazine article length. I've already mentioned the effect of the newest substitute powders in a side post. There is too much to say on the subject and too many probable causes to put in a short tidy package.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2010 0:03:43 GMT -5
cheap rifles that will do the same job, if not better. Dont blame the lower cost rifles. The weight on the savage was one big issue ive always read about. Along with smokeless powder not being legal in certain states.
|
|
|
Post by sw on Nov 3, 2010 6:46:42 GMT -5
I have 5 ML-2's: a stock version, 3 45s, and a 40. Have shot them from day 1. I love the ML-2. That said, last year I bought a Knight 45 new for $49. It is light, feels wonderful, shoots a 200SST over 2,000'/sec and stays appx 2" 3-shot groups @ 200 yds. The vast majority of MLer shooters are happy with this kind of performance. My 10-ML-2s will all beat this performance; still, I got that performance out of the Knight with less than 1 hr at the range(90g Shocky 3F, 200SST,Knight sabot,CCI 209,WW). This is an example of the Sav's competition. Price effective? You bet.
|
|
|
Post by Flatland Hunter on Nov 3, 2010 6:47:54 GMT -5
Cheap rifles won't/can't do the same job... can a cheap BP gun use smokeless? Can it achieve the same velocity, with accuracy? No. Will it kill a deer just as dead at 50 yds? Yes, assuming it is sighted in... 150? Most likely... But is the Accura and Apex really less expensive? Triumph or Omega? Every ML has it's issues... advertising overcomes those. Savage didn't really push the ML2, pretty simple.
|
|
|
Post by craigf on Nov 3, 2010 10:25:35 GMT -5
There is two types of hunters I know. The first wants to hunt as cheaply as possible. His guy has the cheapest gun and scope that he could find and as long as he doesn't complain he is good in my book. The other hunter wants the best in everything, even if he does not need it. This is the guy with a $$$ rifle and $$$ glass and $$$ binoculars and $$$ GPS and $$$....... This guy also happens to make his decisions based upon advertising. This guy would have responded to the right advertising, he wants the best and will spend his money on whatever he is convinced is the best. To bad we will never know what would have happened with the MLII and an aggressive ad campaign.
|
|
|
Post by chuck41 on Nov 3, 2010 11:38:37 GMT -5
RBinAR, you are right on. Craigf makes a good point as well. I am in a deer camp with 15 other swinging dudes. My ML10/PacNor 40 will shoot rings around any of their muzzleloaders, and most of their modern rifles as well and they all know it. Yet not one of them has been willing to pony up the bucks to get one of their own. Perhaps it is because our area seldom offers shots at deer at over 100yds and they don't see the need, or they would rather spend the money on a new four wheeler or a couple cases of Bud Lite.
The refusal of the big stores to handle the ML10, the lack of an aggressive add campaign and to a much lesser degree, the price all contributed to the low sales that killed the ML10. It is a common thing in the firearms industry that specific models are dropped from production to concentrate on others that offer likelihood of more market share and greater profits.
Meanwhile, I have mine and am happy to continue using it in the foreseeable future for the entire season, not just the ML part. It's accuracy, reliability, and effectiveness is unsurpassed by anything in my neck of the woods. In addition it has opened the eyes of a lot of folks as to the possibilities of smokeless muzzleloading. That will insure a number of custom guns in the future from sources like H Ball, SMI, Bad Bull, and who knows, perhaps even RB! We'll see.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2010 12:28:13 GMT -5
Cheap rifles won't/can't do the same job... can a cheap BP gun use smokeless? Can it achieve the same velocity, with accuracy? No. Will it kill a deer just as dead at 50 yds? Yes, assuming it is sighted in... 150? Most likely... But is the Accura and Apex really less expensive? Triumph or Omega? Every ML has it's issues... advertising overcomes those. Savage didn't really push the ML2, pretty simple. Sure cheap guns can do the same job. As to the smokeless powder issue, Blackhorn209. A cheap $100 CVA Hunterbolt shooting blackhorn209 and 245gr Powerbelts @ 100 yards. Ive shot a 10 shot group with that set up that could be covered with a 1.5" orange pastie. A bit more expensive at $188 anda 15 year old behind the rifle at 100 yards with 80gr BH209, 250gr slickload sabots. Lifetime warranty, Shoots great with Blackhorn209, Accurate. No need for a heavy smokeless rifle IMO. I wont bother posting pics of the Accura/Optimas targets. Although this one will be posted later on
|
|
|
Post by Richard on Nov 3, 2010 12:54:25 GMT -5
Frontiergander..........So what is your point??? Can you sight in that BP gun 3" high at 100 yards and be only 4" low at 300??? And can you see what you hit thru all that smoke? And the cleaning that needs to be done with BP and subs.? Can you push 300 gr. bullets to 2500 fps? There is just no comparrison! Richard
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2010 12:56:50 GMT -5
Can you shoot 300 yards with open sights and full bore projectile at a deer?
Smokeless is not legal where in our state. Blackhorn209 is the next best thing. Actually after looking at smokeless savage targets, it doesnt seem to be that consistent
|
|
|
Post by whyohe on Nov 3, 2010 13:40:42 GMT -5
the savage was a nitch gun IMO if you look at it. yes the cheeper guns can do the job BUT you have to deal with the puff of smoke and wait for it to clear to see what happened.
the savage is for thoes who wanted to try some thing new and not deal with the clean up of BP and its subs. have the ability to get more speed and flatter shooting for thoes that can have 150+ yard shots. to be truthfull i bought my first one cause it fit me so nice. I have long arms and it was the only one that had a stock that fit me and the fact that i could shoot smokeless was nice bonus for me. there coould have been several things that led to the stop of production. and we probably touched on most of them. It was a financial decision. I'm sure we will still be able to get parts for years to come. if not we have some people here that can make them for us, like they already have.
|
|
|
Post by spaniel on Nov 3, 2010 14:20:14 GMT -5
Frontiergander..........So what is your point??? Can you sight in that BP gun 3" high at 100 yards and be only 4" low at 300??? And can you see what you hit thru all that smoke? And the cleaning that needs to be done with BP and subs.? Can you push 300 gr. bullets to 2500 fps? There is just no comparrison! Richard Well, let's be fair here though: -Few hunters care about 300 yard shots, especially with a ML. There are only a handful of us who have taken deer past 300 yds. The vast, vast majority only care about 100 yds, and there are no meaningful ballistic advantages within that range to the Savage. -BP subs don't smoke nearly as much as real BP. I never, NEVER had an issue with the smoke in 10+ yrs of ML hunting with subs. Typically I'd have lost the sight picture in the recoil anyways. -Cleaning was an issue with early inlines. I could fully clean and oil my Omega in under 10 minutes shooting 777 (pyrodex was worse). If I had my Savage out in weather it would take almost that much to clean/oil it anyways. -Few people care about driving a 300gr bullet to 2500 fps. Again, within 100 yds there is no meaningful advantage. Marketing is about providing people with a solution to their problem. You cannot provide an answer to a problem the do not perceive and expect to be successful. For the average ML hunter who fires 3-6 shots to sight in and hunts only a handful of days with their ML, even the cleanup is not a huge deal as they only have to do it 2-3 times per year. For people like you who shoot weekly, it really gets to be a pain but that is not many people. The ONLY reason I went smokeless was for performance..and few average hunters have the performance concerns I do. If Savage wanted to create a market for this gun they needed to create awareness of the "problems" of regular MLs and provide it as a solution to those problems.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2010 14:30:40 GMT -5
yep just cleaned the V2, Took me 3 patches with hoppes, 2 Q tips to clean the primer pocket. Cant get much easier than that.
|
|
|
Post by Flatland Hunter on Nov 3, 2010 15:44:36 GMT -5
FG again hearing and seeing only what he wants to... I like the fact that with my Savage and a 300gn bullet I can hold on hair with a max point blank range past 210 yds. I don't have that with my other ML's. With my White and a 495 gn conical I am holding 6-8 inches over a bucks back at 180 yds for a lung heart shot. With my DISC Elite and 250gn bullet I have hold on hair MPBR out to 175 yds. For bean and corn fields in IL and stand hunting nothing compares to my Savage. Clear sight line after shot is very nice, not required to clean a ML that shoots best on fouled bore for the whole season is priceless!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2010 16:05:29 GMT -5
Hey im only 7" low at 200 yards and a 300gr Thor pushed by only 100gr Blackhorn. What ever happened when shooting was a skill, seems like people these days want it easier so they dont have to improve. And 200 yards under hunting conditions is a LONG shot with any firearm.
No need to foul my barrel for it to shoot tight. Checked yesterday and then double checked today. No more oil in my bores to make things screwy like that.
If i want to shoot flat line out to 300 yards, i'd take my centerfire.
|
|
|
Post by zakjak221 on Nov 3, 2010 16:31:41 GMT -5
FG, You could always move to a state that allows smokeless. ;D In Illinois, the Savage ML is the closest thing we'll get to a centerfire rife. Its either that or a slug gun. NO comparison. Of the four deer I've killed with the Savage-none have gone farther than 20 yds. Where we hunt, thats critical for recovery since the brush is thicker than snot. Mark
|
|
|
Post by edge on Nov 3, 2010 16:38:07 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Flatland Hunter on Nov 3, 2010 16:48:02 GMT -5
Well said...
|
|