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Post by Jed on Nov 4, 2010 10:22:23 GMT -5
FrontierGander... Savage may not have promoted their 10ML-II very well. They may have "missed the boat" when it comes to advertising or getting it on hunting shows. BUT...they sure as heck built a tank of a rifle that was over-engineered (in a good sense) and totally capable of doing everything a regular "smokey" ML could do, while also giving guys like us the opportunity to get the full potential out of our "one shot." Now getting back to the main story. Savages ML just didnt catch on. A new guy shooting smokeless powder is a very scary situation IMO, its no where near as forgiving as black powder. A double charge thats accidently fired can kill you where as a double charge with blackhorn209 or any other sub will mainly just knock the snot out of you. Maybe savage has had some experience with this and decided it just wasnt worth a lawsuit over someone blowing it up and getting hurt. Also, and this is a side point, but I bet that you would NOT be willing to purposefully double-charge your CVA and prove to us that it's just a "bigger bang" that goes off. Yes, the Savage may have bulged a barrel when double-charged on accident...but it DID NOT blow apart! I'm not saying that CVA doesn't make a quality gun...but I am saying that it is certainly not as tough as the Savage. Savage may have plans to reintroduce the 10ML-II down the road...we don't know. But we do know that lagging sales doesn't mean that it was a lesser-quality gun.
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Post by spaniel on Nov 4, 2010 11:21:18 GMT -5
I would not want to double-load ANY ML and pull the trigger. More than one inline has been wrecked this way.
Actually this is quite an interesting marketing case. Perhaps trying to position this as an easier-cleaning ML was not effective, even if the message had been communicated more broadly? Look at how the .45s have taken off. Perhaps differentiating based on performance would have been more effective. The "easy to clean" guys don't want to be weighing smokeless powder and changing ventliners, after all.
This board had a lot to do with providing the solutions it took to get me to convert -- namely, the improved ballistics of the .45 and cooling rods to get rid of ridiculous cooling times.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2010 12:03:01 GMT -5
FrontierGander... Also, and this is a side point, but I bet that you would NOT be willing to purposefully double-charge your CVA and prove to us that it's just a "bigger bang" that goes off. Yes, the Savage may have bulged a barrel when double-charged on accident...but it DID NOT blow apart! I'm not saying that CVA doesn't make a quality gun...but I am saying that it is certainly not as tough as the Savage. Already shot a double charge with 180gr blackhorn and 2 300gr thors. Talk about numb afterward and a sore nose from the scope haha. That was with my Accura. I already know how much it takes to blow up a cva and by the time you put that much powder down the bore and that many bullets, you'd have half the ramrod sticking out of the barrel.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2010 12:06:20 GMT -5
While you in all probability hunt Colorado's rifle season with a center fire EARGOSPLITTENLOUDENBOOMER (probably a 300 Ultra Mag or similar cartridge) Where I would be content using a smokeless ML with the One Shot One Kill mentality. You can go ahead and RAG on, but know full well that your words are falling on deaf ears on this forum! Richard Richard Using my cva optima and my brother will be using his cva accura v2. Both rifles shooting 100gr blackhorn209, 300gr thor.
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Post by mike3132 on Nov 4, 2010 12:29:17 GMT -5
And like RB posted how he got jumped on about duplex loads??? I just got the same treatment for Triplex loads ;D Its just an unknown to 98% so right off, ITS DANGEROUS ;D The work quite well for me.............They were obviously the choice when the .454 Cassul Magnum came out a number of years back Richard Richard, RB posted data with his results that showed his pressures were safe and you won't. Big difference! Mike
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2010 12:33:48 GMT -5
yeah but even with an Ok from the manufacture, some people still argue about it LOL.
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Post by bigmoose on Nov 4, 2010 13:27:51 GMT -5
Some of you gents have said, cheap rifles can do anything a Savage ML-10 will do, that great news, Which cheap rifle will shot a 400gr. Copper bullet at 2147-2167FPS, with excellent accuracy. If its cheap enough maybe my wife will buy it for me....goody---goody
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2010 13:37:48 GMT -5
FPS doesnt kill, take a look at the 45-70. If you dont believe me, ask the 9,000+ buffalo the pale faces slaughtered.
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Post by spaniel on Nov 4, 2010 13:47:10 GMT -5
FPS doesnt kill, take a look at the 45-70. If you dont believe me, ask the 9,000+ buffalo the pale faces slaughtered. If you want to argue something about why the Savage was not able to differentiate itself and succeed, the one thing you cannot do with any rationality is say that it does not have a performance advantage. What you are implying is akin to saying a 300WM has nothing over a 30-30. I probably pushed the envelope on inline performance at long range as much as anyone else, regularly taking them to 400 yards and even to 500 yards with many deer kills over 300 yards. A smokeless gun is a completely different performance level. My smokeless 45 delivers more fps and therefore energy, with the same bullet, as my inline but does it abour 130 yards further out. I can shoot nearly a quarter mile with the performance of my inline at 300 yards. If ballistic performance were one's driving factor, the Savage is the answer. Period. Nearly 50% higher velocities with the same projectile.
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Post by bigmoose on Nov 4, 2010 14:41:10 GMT -5
frontiergander,
I sure much could be learned about hunting from you. Killing bison was not hunting it matter little if the bison run a mile. after being shot, flat plains, no where to go, If you are comparing the energy of a 45-70 to the load I made reference to, than maybe I can't learn much from you, let me put it another, what cheap rifle can generate 4000 pounds of energy with a 400gr. bullet. Don't bother I answer, because the answer is none
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Post by jeremylong on Nov 16, 2010 19:16:10 GMT -5
Ignorance is bliss. Nothing better than meeting a guy like this at the shooting range. Funny how things change to excuses in a hurry.
On the other hand, its good to be passionate toward the sport have confidence with your gun. So thats all good. Kind of like a good coon dog, its always the best until you hunt with one better. Gotta have a point of reference.
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Post by johnp034 on Nov 16, 2010 20:08:55 GMT -5
Edge, you have such a way with words, Awesome!
JohnP
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Post by Richard on Nov 16, 2010 20:12:03 GMT -5
Mike3132............So what is your point? ( Do you have your threads mixed up?) "Won't"?? I do not have pressure testing equipment? From what I have heard, neither did Henry Ball?? I simply took powders that I have worked with "extensively" and divided them up and shot them. Was I a guinea pig? I do not thinks so I know this...........I produced higher pressures/velocities with duplex loads and yet "they were OK?" Don't get me wrong, I do not think every Tom, thingy and Harry should be doing what I do! All I am saying is that with time, shooting these loads at a perceived lesser recoil factor, I am comfortable that they are in fact, safe? And any way, why are we beating a dead horse? I have moved on. Richard
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Post by edge on Nov 16, 2010 23:14:59 GMT -5
SNIP. I know this...........I produced higher pressures/velocities with duplex loads and yet "they were OK? SNIP. And you KNOW this how? Based on what? A hunch, because you want it to be so, please explain how you know it was higher or lower? Or perhaps you are referring to your "double Load" that bulged your barrel...I stand corrected that was a poorly engineered duplex edge.
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Post by jeremylong on Nov 17, 2010 8:07:15 GMT -5
Guys - drop the drama around the triplex. Move on.
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Post by dwhunter on Nov 17, 2010 9:35:34 GMT -5
Guys - drop the drama around the triplex. Move on. I agree, RB's thread staying in a hijacked state.
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sr71
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Post by sr71 on Nov 23, 2010 15:17:14 GMT -5
Hey im only 7" low at 200 yards and a 300gr Thor pushed by only 100gr Blackhorn. What ever happened when shooting was a skill, seems like people these days want it easier so they dont have to improve. And 200 yards under hunting conditions is a LONG shot with any firearm. No need to foul my barrel for it to shoot tight. Checked yesterday and then double checked today. No more oil in my bores to make things screwy like that.If i want to shoot flat line out to 300 yards, i'd take my centerfire. If you consider taking a shot at 200 yards long distance, even while hunting, YOU sir are a funny guy!
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