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Post by spaniel on Nov 2, 2010 22:00:03 GMT -5
I did not post here for a long time but have lurked for years...not since the beginning but fairly close. What I have observed: 1) Issues like cooling times were reported and solutions provided by members of this board-- no one else 2) Extraordinary contributions on many levels by the likes of RB and Edge.
As for RW and Grouse, I have seen here and on other boards nothing but self-promotion and a desire to be "an expert", a shooting celebrity, with no original thought or earned credentials. This is why I gravitate to the advice of the likes of Edge and RB; they are not in this for anything for themselves, no desire for celebrity. I can trust what they say to be the truth and not geared to further some agenda. They are also able to communicate and debate with maturity and tact, unlike the pseudo-celebrities, one of the factors that makes this board unique from so many others.
In reality, I am not really concerned about the demise of the ML-II. Smokeless MLing will live on. Savage sold an extra gun or two to me, specifically because I will convert them into smokeless MLs. I have met a number of great folks on here....Dave, Rossman, Mac (who I just spoke with at length tonight)....it's a long list. Longer than any other shooting board I've frequented. These resources and personalities are far more valuable to me than a mass-produced rifle I have never owned.
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Post by grouse on Nov 2, 2010 22:03:53 GMT -5
in whatever new idea someone else has that you can pretend to claim as your own. Spaniel, very interesting. Why dont you give us some examples? You would never post false information would you? I'll be waiting for this one. Though i'm far from perfect, i need to see this one.
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Post by grouse on Nov 2, 2010 22:12:00 GMT -5
I Grouse, I have seen here and on other boards nothing but self-promotion and a desire to be "an expert", a shooting celebrity, with no original thought or earned credentials. . My desire to be more knowledgeable hasn't changed at all. Expert, far from it. I learn stuff everyday. Just back up what you said before, i'm waiting.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2010 22:15:15 GMT -5
Brother Rick, You don't suppose Savage stops production of the ML-10, just so they could get rid of little randy? LOL no wonder he was kissing that cheap ugly tc impact! Hes brown nosing one company as the first is dropping their line up. Now that makes sense.
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Post by timberman on Nov 2, 2010 22:18:12 GMT -5
It certainly was due to all the info on this board and those who spent the hours testing and putting it together that encourged me to buy the ml10-11. I have never regretted that decision and want to take this opportunity to thank all those who have contributed to all the info and help on this board. And of course I wil look forward to all those hints and tips in the future of this great site. Timberman
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Post by rbinar on Nov 2, 2010 22:42:26 GMT -5
8-)Ok enough I know Tom to a slight degree and I don't think it's a good idea to flame him. I'm not trying to tell you or him how to think or what to say but I seemed to have put my foot in my mouth by making too big an attack. So forgive me (if you can) for that and get back to a rational subject.
First some facts. At the Modern Muzzle Board Tom (and another director, sorry I'm so bad with names) gave me some space to say what I wanted no matter the subject. I thanked them for that then and still do now. Though I don't contribute there now it is because I had said all I wanted not because I was treated bad or sensored.
If they want to segregate that type of subject to a another entry point it was agreeable to me. If memory does not fail me that board also stood up to RWs tyranny in the end and they should be appluaded for that.
Now for some thoughts. This latest flury of posts is the most we've had since the great debate when Toby Bridges left Savage. That's to be expected because this is the biggest news in a long time. Maybe the biggest ever in a sense. Emotions will probably run high and it's easy to jump post. I offer my own reaction to Tom's inital post as a good example of this type of BAD post.
I don't like being told "you screwed up" though some times I do. Likely you feel the same way. But leeway is needed here because this is sure a charged subject and is likely to get more that way. So a knee jerk re-post may be counter productive
In the interest of calm I will be posting some other threads on this subject where the debate can continue, but at a more reserved level. The newest one will appear soon (within 24 hours, maybe much faster) that centers on the time line of developments that could be consider controversial. Next in line centers on faster than standard speed loads. I'll list what seemed to occur from my end and if you feel mistakes were made feel free to fire away. I'll do my best not to snap back
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Post by Dave W on Nov 3, 2010 4:35:33 GMT -5
8-)Ok enough I know Tom to a slight degree and I don't think it's a good idea to flame him. With all due respect to RB, why not? He came on the board pointing fingers when he is as much to blame as anyone! He has made posts using powders, bullets and vent liners, of which none are recommended in the manual, and yet he wants to throw the blame elsewhere. Sorry RB, that is a hypocrite in my book!
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Post by mike3132 on Nov 3, 2010 5:06:55 GMT -5
What I wrote was the truth plain and simple. This board was started by members who wanted to help each other. When RW's old wingman comes on here and states "we" are why the Savage 10 ML II is being dropped I find that hard to swallow. Mike
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Post by grouse on Nov 3, 2010 6:05:46 GMT -5
8-)Ok enough I know Tom to a slight degree and I don't think it's a good idea to flame him. With all due respect to RB, why not? He came on the board pointing fingers when he is as much to blame as anyone! He has made posts using powders, bullets and vent liners, of which none are recommended in the manual, and yet he wants to throw the blame elsewhere. Sorry RB, that is a hypocrite in my book! Everything you stated is correct. If that's being a hypocrite in your eyes then i am.
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Post by rbinar on Nov 3, 2010 6:18:19 GMT -5
With all due respect to RB, why not? He came on the board pointing fingers when he is as much to blame as anyone! He has made posts using powders, bullets and vent liners, of which none are recommended in the manual, and yet he wants to throw the blame elsewhere. Sorry RB, that is a hypocrite in my book! I don't claim to know enough to tell you or Tom what to say. I'm just trying to get along with everyone but I know that may be impossible especially when emotions are charged. This is a tough subject: I doubt you can find any Savage shooter who is happy with the event. I blasted Tom at first and still think it is unwise to blame anyone or even a group but I'm uncertain he has had anything to do with Randy who is somewhat universally despised, so I'm not going that road.
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Post by dans on Nov 3, 2010 6:50:31 GMT -5
Well we are just going to have to get over it. We need to look ahead and not dwell on the past. It makes no difference why the line is being dropped. We owners and shooters of the smokeless savage MLers need to move on. The bottom line on these decisions is $$$ usually. This type of smokeless MLer can and is custom made and will live on. Sometimes this is the price paid for being in on the cutting edge of technology.
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Post by jeff on Nov 3, 2010 7:38:26 GMT -5
Dans your 100% right we have to move on if we are to survive. Our group will not grow from this point on, and the ones that dont want to participate can leave now. NO ONE IS MAKING YOU LURK. As for Savage, RW, & Toby, Savage will march on, ( edited ) the two of them shouldn't of pissed Toby off to get all the bad press. ITS OVER. If Tom, and the rest of you that want to throw knives at each other must persist then this thread and all like it should be locked by a moderator to keep this board healthy. Jeff~
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Post by grouse on Nov 3, 2010 8:20:09 GMT -5
What I wrote was the truth plain and simple. This board was started by members who wanted to help each other. When RW's old wingman comes on here and states "we" are why the Savage 10 ML II is being dropped I find that hard to swallow. Mike Get a glass of water and swallow. For those that dont know the definition of "Opinion" i looked it up in the dictionary for you. I'm sure some of you will argue that as well. Opinion-judgment or belief not founded on certainty or proofI need to explain nothing else.
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Post by bigmoose on Nov 3, 2010 8:30:40 GMT -5
NEWS FLASH, Joe DEGrande is in charge of customer relations, and while he is a prince of a man, who bend over backwards to help ML owners, replacing double charged barrels, I don't think he had the authority, to tell fellow board member, " even though we are losing money, with the ML-10, lets keep building them' Savage is a business, business exsist to make money, its as simply as that. A great product, but a small market. As for Rick and Edge and others, they are the pillars on which this site stands. Every time I fire my rifle its with a load devoloped by Rick. When I have a question about load safety, not covered by Ricks instructions, I ask Edge. As for the lose of Savage, maybe someday Rick will go back to building Rifles, from what I read here, Richard put out a fine rifle and other do, so all is not lost.
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Post by grouse on Nov 3, 2010 8:35:50 GMT -5
I blasted Tom at first and still think it is unwise to blame anyone or even a group but I'm uncertain he has had anything to do with Randy who is somewhat universally despised, so I'm not going that road. Rick, i never expected you to agree with my opinion at all. It's my opinion and my right to have one. Right or wrong. There is nothing wrong at all with anyone not agreeing to an opinion. People should feel free to offer an opinion and move on. Why argue about it. It serves no purpose or value to anything. I read some of the post's and just laugh. People go back 5 or 10 ten years trying to make a point. Some guy's cant right a post with out mentioning randy's name. Yet they complain about him??? What happened yesterday i cant do a thing about. But what happens in the future i can. In Life, in Muzzleloading, Hunting,work, family etc. I have nothing to do with RW at all. The last time i talked to him was atleast 4 or 5 years ago. Have i learned from him? Yes sir. Has he supplied me any false information? No sir. Has he ever reccomended unsafe practices? No sir.
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Post by jeff on Nov 3, 2010 8:44:12 GMT -5
[I have nothing to do with RW at all. The last time i talked to him was atleast 4 or 5 years ago. Have i learned from him? Yes sir. Has he supplied me any false information? No sir. Has he ever reccomended unsafe practices? No sir.[/quote]
Then stop ranting and raving like him. Jeff~
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Post by tiswell on Nov 3, 2010 8:50:44 GMT -5
I am new here, one heck of a nice rifle. Thanks to Bill Ball and Savage for their part in offering a fine product. Thanks to all on this forum that help us rookies along. Sad to see production ended,+1 on moving on!!
Tiswell
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Post by dans on Nov 3, 2010 9:07:52 GMT -5
You bet tiswell. We own a great muzzy and Savage will keep a parts inventory for 10 years so lets keep on shootin and huntin.
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Post by rangeball on Nov 3, 2010 10:00:07 GMT -5
Sometimes when I have an opinion, that by definition is "not founded on certainty or proof", that will serve only to piss a whole bunch of people off, I keep it to myself.
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Post by mike3132 on Nov 3, 2010 10:09:48 GMT -5
People, lets all take a deep breath and calm down. This has gotten a little out of hand and Im part of the blame. No name calling will be tolerated so keep that in mind.
Lets get back to the subject at hand please. Mike
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Post by grouse on Nov 3, 2010 10:17:52 GMT -5
Sometimes when I have an opinion, that by definition is "not founded on certainty or proof", that will serve only to piss a whole bunch of people off, I keep it to myself. You are a very smart man.
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Post by bigmoose on Nov 3, 2010 10:22:34 GMT -5
Amen Mike
There is a name for folks who name call others out, that are a 1000 miles away, "and it ain't nice"
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Post by grouse on Nov 3, 2010 10:24:53 GMT -5
People, lets all take a deep breath and calm down. This has gotten a little out of hand and Im part of the blame. No name calling will be tolerated so keep that in mind. Lets get back to the subject at hand please. Mike No doubt about it. No matter what was said in this thread the damage was done before hand. The decision was made by Savage to not make the Savage ML for what ever reason before this thread started. It's just very dissapointing to say the least.
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Post by spaniel on Nov 3, 2010 10:35:26 GMT -5
My desire to be more knowledgeable hasn't changed at all. Expert, far from it. I learn stuff everyday. Just back up what you said before, i'm waiting. For some reason you seem to enjoy coming onto boards and bullying your way around until you have destroyed the positive atmosphere and chased people away. I am not going to take your bait here and allow you to make me a party to you repeating that here. I am sure you are blind to what I speak of, though anyone reading the same boards knows, just as you are blind to the abrasiveness of your personality and your posting. I can't make the blind see so there is no point in going there. You claim no affiliation to RW but as several have already said, you sound just like him. Do you look up to the reputation RW has built on boards? I would be mortified if someone looked at me the way most look at him. I would suggest you reread how you posts and their tone/combativeness compared to the gentlemen on this board and determine what kind of reputation you would like to have and act accordingly. I ask again, if you don't like what is discussed here why are you here? If you cannot post in the collaborative and positive manner that is one of the best aspects of this board I do not think you will find any of your opinions well-received here.
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Post by whyohe on Nov 3, 2010 10:47:52 GMT -5
As Mike has already posted, lets stop with the snipeing and get back to HELPING one another. that is what this board was intended to do IMO.
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Post by dave d. on Nov 3, 2010 10:58:54 GMT -5
:)I am saddened by this news myself. I don't shoot a savage but have had many and still own a original unfired. Shooting smokeless has been so much fun and I have bill ball and savage to thank for this. I hope one day that we could see the savage back because it is one fine rifle and it sure makes for a easy system along with a easy pn conversion.
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Post by rangeball on Nov 3, 2010 12:29:59 GMT -5
Sometimes when I have an opinion, that by definition is "not founded on certainty or proof", that will serve only to piss a whole bunch of people off, I keep it to myself. You are a very smart man. Could I get you to write a note for my wife?
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Post by grouse on Nov 3, 2010 13:11:19 GMT -5
My desire to be more knowledgeable hasn't changed at all. Expert, far from it. I learn stuff everyday. Just back up what you said before, i'm waiting. For some reason you seem to enjoy coming onto boards and bullying your way around until you have destroyed the positive atmosphere and chased people away. I am not going to take your bait here and allow you to make me a party to you repeating that here. I am sure you are blind to what I speak of, though anyone reading the same boards knows, just as you are blind to the abrasiveness of your personality and your posting. I can't make the blind see so there is no point in going there. You claim no affiliation to RW but as several have already said, you sound just like him. Do you look up to the reputation RW has built on boards? I would be mortified if someone looked at me the way most look at him. I would suggest you reread how you posts and their tone/combativeness compared to the gentlemen on this board and determine what kind of reputation you would like to have and act accordingly. I ask again, if you don't like what is discussed here why are you here? If you cannot post in the collaborative and positive manner that is one of the best aspects of this board I do not think you will find any of your opinions well-received here. Spaniel, Just back up your statements and provide information. You thru the bait, not me. Or it will be you who post's false information. And no board needs people posting that, and it should not be tollerated.
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Post by grouse on Nov 3, 2010 13:13:00 GMT -5
You are a very smart man. Could I get you to write a note for my wife? Do a screen shot and print it out for her.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2010 13:24:15 GMT -5
when people do back up their statements you still cry about it
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