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Post by spaniel on Nov 2, 2010 9:38:12 GMT -5
If you don't like what is discussed here then good riddance to you, Tom, you can go join RW, who is equally intolerable, in whatever new idea someone else has that you can pretend to claim as your own.
Anyone who wants simple is free to follow the manual. I know it is not male to read manuals but it's all there, and I have NEVER heard anyone express being overwhelmed by the complexity of the basic operation of the firearm (beyond not having pellets available).
One of the reasons it took me so long to get into smokeless MLing was that it was associated with RW. For that reason alone, I ignored it for several years.
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Post by Jon on Nov 2, 2010 10:16:06 GMT -5
Rick and Spaniel. +1. I will say this if it was not for the people on this board I would not have 3 ml2's one is now a 45, and one ml1. I don't regret any one of them. I would not say that because Savage has great customer service that was the problem. I would say that the bad press people put out on smokeless Is at least a good portion of the problem. Ignorance and lack of attention certainly didn't help much. A lot of people look for someone to blame. That is another thing that is great about people here when a mistake is made they owe up to it which in itself is a great teacher. Other than 2 questionable catastrophic failures that I know of Savages track record is way better than any other muzzle loader that I know of. Jon Jon
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Post by lwh723 on Nov 2, 2010 10:17:27 GMT -5
If you don't like what is discussed here then good riddance to you, Tom, you can go join RW, who is equally intolerable, in whatever new idea someone else has that you can pretend to claim as your own. +2 (Jon was faster than me)
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Post by northny on Nov 2, 2010 10:23:06 GMT -5
It was the day after finding this board that I bought my first ML II. I was happy with it, but wanted better than the five inch groups I was getting on my first range trip. Quick read of the tips and hints on this board and I was getting 2 inch groups (5 shots groups by the way). All with factory loads and powders. Based on that I bought two more ML IIs. (one for each son). So tally up three sales BECAUSE of this board.
Not surprised at low sales. It was tough to buy my first one. Called 15 or so gun shops before finding one that had one. Most had not heard of it. The shop where I bought number one is the only shop I have come across that had one on the shelf. He did not have one after that and I had to go on line to get the others.
I have yet to have a discussion with anyone at a range, gun club, hunt club, hunting buddies or even in my family that knew savage had a muzzle loader or that there was such a beast as a smokeless MZ. When I started my research to buy my first front loader, I had not heard of the savage (knew of Knight, TC and Remington).
So my nominee for the epitaph on the headstone of the ML II
"Your shooting what? Never heard of it."
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Post by grouse on Nov 2, 2010 10:48:11 GMT -5
I've seen a lot as well, and that means you can't hide. If you ever had an original idea in your 10ML life I can't find it on this board or any other. So you parrot the party line for the ship even after the Titantic has sank. All remember this: It was Randy and his underlings like Tom who had control of this ship from Christening to sinking. Any attempt to blame someone else is the last disparate act of failure. Rick, you are letting your brain out smart your common sense. No need to argue and make assumptions you have no clue about. Of course the Internet is full of that. I'm just surprised from you.
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Post by whyohe on Nov 2, 2010 11:08:37 GMT -5
Grouse, I dont know how you could blame this board? Yes people have bulged barrels but people have confessed to THEIR mistake. It was Savage that choose to replace at no charge just for customer service sake and to probably try to keep the MLII going. yes im sure we gave poor Joe some gray hair but this board IMO has done way more for smokeless MLing than any other.
IMO this was a hard thing to sell.. the safety factor scared alot of dealers and shooters. I remember when i talked to dealers and they said it was unsafe. its peoples closed minds that could have done it in.
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Post by spaniel on Nov 2, 2010 11:14:13 GMT -5
People who JUST want simple will not buy a Savage because they don't reload for their centerfire either, so they don't have a powder scale or Lee dippers either. This whole "simple" thing is a red herring.
The mass muzzleloader market is $200-$300 guns people use 1-2 days per year to extend their season, the majority probably dropping in 2-3 pellets and calling it a day. That is NOT the market for the Savage and it never was. If they really thought it was, we can blame poor marketing staff as well.
There was no significant marketing behind this gun...ever. It had a great following with those intellectually curious or performance-minded enough to seek it out. With sufficient marketing umph behind it....we'll never know what may have occurred.
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Post by grouse on Nov 2, 2010 11:24:30 GMT -5
Grouse, I dont know how you could blame this board? Yes people have bulged barrels but people have confessed to THEIR mistake. It was Savage that choose to replace at no charge just for customer service sake and to probably try to keep the MLII going. yes im sure we gave poor Joe some gray hair but this board IMO has done way more for smokeless MLing than any other. IMO this was a hard thing to sell.. the safety factor scared alot of dealers and shooters. I remember when i talked to dealers and they said it was unsafe. its peoples closed minds that could have done it in. First of all, like many people on all forums they have opinions. Right or wrong they have them. From ML'S, to powder, to bullets, to sabots, to primers etc. I listed my opinion and it's my opinion. Some will agree, some wont. Here again, just an opinion. And like RB said, what have i done for the Savage. Well to tell you the truth, i never needed to do anything.
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Post by rbinar on Nov 2, 2010 12:12:29 GMT -5
Rick, you are letting your brain out smart your common sense. No need to argue and make assumptions you have no clue about. Of course the Internet is full of that. I'm just surprised from you. Tom if I wrongly associated you with Randy, I can and do apologize. However I don't see the need to blame someone (something in this case) for a problem that was bound to happen. If you have an opinion and just want to make it fine. You think we blew the idea of the Savage OK. But what would have happened if we never had this board? I don't think much different except even fewer would have ever tried one.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2010 12:38:26 GMT -5
Not in a quote but paraphrased: the 10ML never lived up to it's sales potential. I think that's part of it for sure. The other part is return on investment. How could savage of been making very much money at all on those ML'S??? This board i believe turned SAFE CLEAN AND SIMPLE into a train wreck. Everybody was looking for Joe degrande to replace barrels at no charge for stupidity. How can any company afford to do that? They can't and no other company has had to as much as Savage. The excuse to Savage has been i doubled loaded my gun and i need a new barrel. Well, that's is not right to tell you the truth. Using powders not reccomended by Savage, Duplexing, Tri-plexing, and just plain stupidity from people put Savage in a NO win situation. Then new owners are linked to this board to learn about how to use there new Savage. Are you kidding me, 95% of the people dont want all this grief and they are led to believe that's the way it is. The Savage is just as easy to operate if not easier then all other muzzleloaders. I also agree it's probably the safest one ever built. People like to spend lot's of money for speed and range to kill there Deer a mile away. Instead of spending more time in the woods and becoming better hunters. But to do that, they would need to get off there computer chair and climb a hill to find better hunting oppurtunities. It's easier to weigh two or three seperate powders and put them together and wait for a Deer to walk out in the field and shoot it a mile away. That's the kind of hunts i like to brag about. I will say there is some very good info on this board. But you got to wade thru alot of crap to find it. Anyone looking to buy a Savage ML, after reading most of this stuff would of been scared away with out doubt. Of course all of this is my opinion, and being on this board for a long time i have seen alot. Tom.. Boy o Boy ...... Ridiculous!, Ridiculous!, is the man who shows up only to condemn, complain and to point the finger. Contrary to what you might think....I would like to thank all on this board who have been such a great encouragement and help for me for the last 4yrs. Zen
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Post by billyzink on Nov 2, 2010 12:51:29 GMT -5
He's talking about RW, Edge. Apparently threads/posts on this topic got deleted on Randy's site. Wakeman has a forum on his site? Where is it? Never have seen it!!!
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Post by grouse on Nov 2, 2010 12:51:46 GMT -5
Rick, you are letting your brain out smart your common sense. No need to argue and make assumptions you have no clue about. Of course the Internet is full of that. I'm just surprised from you. Tom if I wrongly associated you with Randy, I can and do apologize. However I don't see the need to blame someone (something in this case) for a problem that was bound to happen. If you have an opinion and just want to make it fine. You think we blew the idea of the Savage OK. But what would have happened if we never had this board? I don't think much different except even fewer would have ever tried one. Thanks Rick, apology excepted. This board no doubt saved the Savage years ago. And alot of people dont want to admit Randy was a huge help with that as well. Because he was getting payed or just cared i have no clue. And i dont care. I think there has been alot of bad exposure on this board. I complained before and also suggested a seperate forum with away to regulate who can enter. I believe it was that way on MM for you Rick? People are going to play in everything in life. I just think some things need to be kept away from the public. At one time recently there was four bulged barrels threads on the first page. If a potential Savage owner reads this stuff they automatically think poor design, unsafe, smokeless powder etc. I know Smokeless powder is safe in approved guns and can also be safe in custom guns like you have done. Are smokeless muzzleloaders the only one's that get double loaded? Why do i not see this on any other forum. To tell you the truth, i dont think a double load would bulge a Savage barrel. Here again, just my opinion. The Savage Muzzleloader might loose it's name, but the plat form will remain and available one way or another.
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Post by edge on Nov 2, 2010 13:02:37 GMT -5
I bet that 90% of all bulged barrels were from double loads of Savage approved loads!
IMO you need to quit beating your chest and saying "I told you so"!
edge.
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Post by billyzink on Nov 2, 2010 13:05:29 GMT -5
He's talking about RW, Edge. Apparently threads/posts on this topic got deleted on Randy's site. Wakeman has a forum on his site? Where is it? Never have seen it!!! bump
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Post by bigmoose on Nov 2, 2010 13:48:06 GMT -5
Brother Rick, You don't suppose Savage stops production of the ML-10, just so they could get rid of little randy?
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Post by youp50 on Nov 2, 2010 13:52:38 GMT -5
I am fairly certain it is primarily commerce that shut it down.
I prefer the production to cease rather than send more machinery and jobs overseas.
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Post by grouse on Nov 2, 2010 13:58:56 GMT -5
I bet that 90% of all bulged barrels were from double loads of Savage approved loads! IMO you need to quit beating your chest and saying "I told you so"! edge. Edge, that's great you think 90% of the barrels double loaded bulged the barrels. That's your opinion. As far as the other stuff, makes no sense at all and pertains to nothing.
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Post by bigmoose on Nov 2, 2010 14:19:19 GMT -5
I was just reading some of the comments about who was a promoter of the ML-10, the answer is simply. Up to the time they had a falling out, and he become an anti Savage. The number one supporter was Toby Bridges, I bought my first Savage after reading an article in a national publication by Bridges, and when I had ptoblems coursed shooting in 90 degree plus weather, something Savage didn't not address in 01, when I called there tech service, they gave me Toby;s number, saying he was the only one who could answer my question he was in charge of load development. He not only answered all my questions, but faxed me 12 pages of info not yet published by Savage.I still stay in touch with him, a fine gent. I now have 6000 plus shots fired in my Savage and RB Special, Toby had 5 times as many, I know Rick has shot a bunch, and Edge too. I am perfectly secure in the safety of my rifles although its been several years since I shot a book load, I have pages of load info from Rick, and when I couldn't bug Rick, Edge helped me with load info. One fact remains, the guy that Savage off the ground was Toby Brides period.
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Post by mike3132 on Nov 2, 2010 16:00:21 GMT -5
Just a little info.......
With the exception of about 6 or so people Ive been here longer than anyone and this how it was.....
This board was up and running about two years before Toby Bridges showed up, 3 years before Wakeman made his entrance and this first post was " I want to learn all about the Savage 10ML from you guys". With in a year he was a self proclaimed ML II expert.
When Doug started this board Bill Ball (for those that don't know is Henry Ball's son, the designer of the 10ML) was the only expert we had and answered many of the questions.
We all learned together how to make this gun shoot proficient. Before Toby came on board we learned about his double sabot loading method which allowed us to shoot faster. We tried many a different components. NOT ONE BARREL that I knew was every bulged doing this. Soon after TB came aboard.
RW never came up with any of the trouble shooting tips or hints that are on here, like scope mount screws, carbon in the breech plug...and so on.
RW made his rounds on the chat sites 3 years before joined here bad mouthing the Savage 10 ML. Many of the members here got into arguments on other sites with him over the 10ML and I was one of them.
After TB's ML II blew up RW and him fought on this board for weeks. Finally RW and his followers (do you remember Tom) left and went to MM board to start there own Savage board. According to them we weren't safe. Wasn't long most of them came back here.
RB came aboard and borrowed Edge's strain gauge equipment. RB started doing scientific testing with data showing powders other than the ones Savage recommended would shoot faster with less pressure. RB caught a bunch of hell over this from sources outside this board. We owe a lot of thanks to RB for his input and developments on the Savage 10ML loads.
This board has always been creative and informative with no one seeking credit for ideas or designs except one person that didn't design any thing to begin with. Many times someone would come up with an idea and someone else would add to it or make a comment and the original idea became better.
Edge has also done a lot of experimenting with sabots and bullets and deserves a lot of credit for getting this gun to shoot better. Edge custom machined the very first Barnes TSX bullets long before Barnes made them. To show you what kind of a guy is, he sent me a full box he made and wouldn't take any money for them.
There is a lot more of to the history of this board but in general this is how Doug's got started and is where its at today. Most of us contributed to this board for the love of the sport and not for momentary gains. Mike
PS...Some of you might not like what I said but its all the truth on how it was.
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Post by bigmoose on Nov 2, 2010 16:24:10 GMT -5
I like it
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Post by Jon on Nov 2, 2010 16:25:35 GMT -5
Mike. I for one like everything you said. I'm not a great contributor but I've been here from the beginning. Thanks to all don't let it go away. Jon
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Post by Flatland Hunter on Nov 2, 2010 17:14:31 GMT -5
I may not have owned the ML2 as long as others BUT I have followed this and the old boards way back when Doug was still moderating. I have seen the ups and downs and it was the regular joe's who kept the board going and helped out the newbies when they were thinking, "What have I got myself into!"
The Toby was of great help and the wannabe celeb had their moments... but when they were gone, the regular guys remained.
Grouse can have his opinion... I know mine differs from his. Most people who come on here are adults and they can make up their own minds about the more exotic loads. Tom, I never once considered duplexing, never had an inclination to even do it. I did enjoy reading about them though. I think your first post was way of base...
This board was there when I had issues with I4198 and helped me decide on RL7... most who bulged a barrel admitted to their mistakes, whatever they were. To inform and allow others to learn from the mistake. That is what community is about. Looking out for others, allowing people to have all the info and make up their own mind. That is what this board has always been about.
Savage never fully got behind the ML2... there is so much they could have done to help the new buyer... continued load development as sabots changed, etc.
I will be sad to see it end... glad I have mine.
I edited this post as I feel I shouldn't contribute further to the off base nature of some of the posts...
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Post by rjhans53 on Nov 2, 2010 17:40:11 GMT -5
Mike well said
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Post by Dave W on Nov 2, 2010 19:21:00 GMT -5
Blame the board for failure of a product, that is just laughable. If not for this board and the results people posted I seriously doubt Savage would have sold as many guns as they did. I know I would not have bought mine if not for this board and the three guys who bought theirs after they saw what mine would do, would not have bought one either. That is four guns Savage sold because of the people who frequent and contribute their knowledge to this board. Posters have went out of their way to get newbies guns shooting when they had no clue what the problem was. If not for the board, how many people would have gotten rid of their gun after they could not get it to shoot and claimed it was the biggest POS they ever owned? I see nothing in the manual about recoil lugs being too high or base screws bottoming out too soon or adequate cooling between shots. The economy is not helping but the failure of the product lies at the feet of the company. If you do not beat the bushes and get the word out, you are not going to sell your product no matter how good it is, and lets be honest, Savage could have did a better job in marketing as well as in quality. As for barrel bulges, with the exception of Hillbill's buddy and a couple .45's, book powders were being used as the propellant in all that I recall reading about, but lets blame duplex or the board instead of the operator. Savage bit the bullet and replaced the barrels, they made the decision. Our company does the same thing, countless times, many are customer errors. One of the commandments our company goes by, "the customer is always right", you lose some money short term, but you have to look at the long term plan. In this case, unfortunately it did not pan out for Savage and the consumer.
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Post by littlejoe on Nov 2, 2010 19:28:10 GMT -5
Advertising is what failed the MLII. The product is superior in every way than any other commercially produced muzzle loader. Members on this board have nearly begged savage to put the gun on a hunting show.They have begged for a factory .45. Savage's bread and butter has always been bolt action centerfire rifles not muzzleloaders. If the hunting show viewers had any inkling that the MLII was as superior to what they are being force fead, Savage wouldn't have been able to keep up with demand. Prime example anyone that buys a TC Icon because they think they are the best bolt rifle you can buy. With a gun that is the best available MZ in the MLII ,the obvious failure was Savages poor marketing. Thank god for the Ball family and god please save this board as it is in my opinion the absolute best resource available for smokeless muzzleloading PERIOD. Thanks to all for the valuable tips and loading data over the years and the frienships I have made. LittleJoe
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Post by grouse on Nov 2, 2010 19:40:10 GMT -5
After TB's ML II blew up RW and him fought on this board for weeks. Finally RW and his followers (do you remember Tom) left and went to MM board to start there own Savage board. According to them we weren't safe. Wasn't long most of them came back here. Randy actually had nothing to do with that board. Patrick White started that board and me and Chuck Hill (big6x6) were really the only one's posting there. After awhile Patrick talked Randy into joining and another board/server was bought and paid for buy a few members including me. The reason was so it was faster obviously. I believe with in 1 year randy was banned from it, or maybe two years? As far as randy not liking the Savage i remember that. I believe it was the ML-1 and not the ML-2. Not sure i but i understand what you are saying.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2010 20:18:04 GMT -5
one thing for sure, without this board I would still be shooting 5744 and 250 xtps. not that there is anything wrong with that load but we have many options today and mainly thanks to the innovators on this board. and yes I would suffice to say that double loading has contributed to most if not all bulged barrels, my friends included.
word of mouth has sold most savage muzzers, certainly not ad dollars. I have sold many people on them myself as Im sure many of you have as well. to blame the board and the people here is total nonsense. Yes savage went the extra mile and replaced his barrel, along with a new hex plug and sights he had taken off.
Will there be a mad dash for the remaining guns? I kind of doubt it but I sure hate to see a good gun go the way of the 99, my favorite lever of all time. O well, we will just have to use whats out there....Bill
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Post by grouse on Nov 2, 2010 20:50:50 GMT -5
Grouse can have his opinion... I know mine differs from his. Most people who come on here are adults and they can make up their own minds about the more exotic loads. Tom, I never once considered duplexing, never had an inclination to even do it. I did enjoy reading about them though. I think your first post was way of base... Obviously in most of the reply's your not the only one that thinks i'm way off base. As you stated most people on here are adults and will do and choose what route they want to go in life and Muzzleloading. Duplexing was a topic i watched and made my choices not to do. I just couldn't see an advantage at all for me. And i also could not get a powder manufacture to tell me it was safe to do. Though a few people claim it's safer and creates less pressure? ? It's just something i'm not interested in that's all.
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Post by mike3132 on Nov 2, 2010 21:17:52 GMT -5
After TB's ML II blew up RW and him fought on this board for weeks. Finally RW and his followers (do you remember Tom) left and went to MM board to start there own Savage board. According to them we weren't safe. Wasn't long most of them came back here. Randy actually had nothing to do with that board. Patrick White started that board and me and Chuck Hill (big6x6) were really the only one's posting there. After awhile Patrick talked Randy into joining and another board/server was bought and paid for buy a few members including me. The reason was so it was faster obviously. I believe with in 1 year randy was banned from it, or maybe two years? As far as randy not liking the Savage i remember that. I believe it was the ML-1 and not the ML-2. Not sure i but i understand what you are saying. Not quite the way I remember it but my memory isn't what it use to be. I do remember several of you deleted your accounts here and talked this board down over there for being reckless and dangerous. I did error on one thing RW was already here when TB joined but not by much. Anyway this all is water over the dam now, but I will say this, this board helped Savage more than it ever hurt them and Im sure we will continue to do so in the future. Mike
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Post by grouse on Nov 2, 2010 21:48:40 GMT -5
Randy actually had nothing to do with that board. Patrick White started that board and me and Chuck Hill (big6x6) were really the only one's posting there. After awhile Patrick talked Randy into joining and another board/server was bought and paid for buy a few members including me. The reason was so it was faster obviously. I believe with in 1 year randy was banned from it, or maybe two years? As far as randy not liking the Savage i remember that. I believe it was the ML-1 and not the ML-2. Not sure i but i understand what you are saying. Not quite the way I remember it but my memory isn't what it use to be. I do remember several of you deleted your accounts here and talked this board down over there for being reckless and dangerous. I did error on one thing RW was already here when TB joined but not by much. Anyway this all is water over the dam now, but I will say this, this board helped Savage more than it ever hurt them and Im sure we will continue to do so in the future. Mike I remember all very well. I dont really understand why Randy is brought up so much in these post's to tell you the truth. I guess speculation and looking for stuff that happened many years ago to try to justify something i really dont know. If your trying to justify/ prove something why dont you try and get some answers from savage? Ecspecially Joe Degrande. Why dont you just email Joe degrande my opinion that i posted and let him tell you i'm nuts. Talking about Randy and Toby and all these other things are really strange i think. But it takes this kind of recognition to make them a cut above the rest. Or atleast in some minds. I would love to see Joe's response and gladly apologize to everyone that my OPINION was wrong. And if so, i promise this wasn't the first or last time because i'm very far from perfect and not afraid to admit it.
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