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Post by Richard on Sept 8, 2010 15:36:51 GMT -5
Yesterday saw beautiful weather here in western NC at the Catawba Valley Wildlife Club with my two shooting partners, Bil and Herman. Just for S$%*#'s and giggles, I decided to respond to Al's nice 7 shot group with a "10 shoter" ;D I first fouled the barrel with one shot in the grass and proceeded to start me ten shot group: Target #1. After the first shot (which printed high) the next nine went into a nice 1.447" group! So to make it a nice "ten in a row" group, I fired an eleventh shot which hit within the others. I now concluded that my gun need two foulers prior to starting groups I only had four more of that load left and fired them at 200 yards with just ok results. The first two at one velocity grouped together and the second two at a slightly different velocity group together but lower and right? I happen to have (4) 180 gr. Nosler .40 H.P.'s which I had picked up in Charlotte at the NRA convention and wanted to see how they did in the new barrel. They did not do bad and may order some more. Target #3 Target #4 was my first attempt at sabot less in the new barrel and all I can say is WOW . Here is the thing....They were way too tight to want to shoot five shots. I actually got almost out of breath trying to stuff them down the barrel. I even bent my newly made solid aluminum ram rod. But, accuracy was super and at 3115 fps with a five fps ES. Next I switched to another bullet... a 200 gr. XTP vs. the FTX shot above. This bullet was sized .0005" smaller and went down the barrel much easier (more the way I prefer). It, however, did not shoot as good! Same load and about 50 fps slower. Target #6 was a 7 shot group (because I only had seven charges left) with the same powder as above..........Nothing to write home about What I can say about that ten shot group is this: I would definitely have all the confidence in the world that I could head shoot a 100 yd. ground hog! ;D Richard
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Post by deadon on Sept 8, 2010 16:03:01 GMT -5
WOW is right but if they load that tight I would have to hire someone to load for me . My Pacnor is going to be late , They are behind, wish someone woudda goosed her for me.Rusty
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Post by bigmoose on Sept 8, 2010 16:59:27 GMT -5
Richard,
As always, very, very nice
Marty
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Post by etj401 on Sept 8, 2010 18:28:27 GMT -5
Richard, I've been watching all your results with the 45 Pacnor and appreciated what you are doing. I like N120 as a single powder in my 45 Pacnor but N120 is hard to find. I have been looking at the results of the N130 and N120 duplexed. The N130 appears to have about the same speed as N120 duplexed. Have you tried N130 as a single powder? It appears that it could be shot as a single powder using the same weights. What do you think?
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Post by boarhog on Sept 8, 2010 19:00:12 GMT -5
Rich! That was some pretty shooting! I'm a bit surprised by the speed you're getting with that N-110/RE-7 duplex sabotless! WOW! I tried a 10/60 load of the same powders Monday. I thought there was good potential with the combo, but decided it needs to be a fairly hot load. Your results tell me that I am probably right! Robert
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Post by Richard on Sept 8, 2010 19:10:43 GMT -5
etj.............I guess it might? The problem however, might be in the ignition phase during cold weather (thats where the starter powder in duplexing comes in) Now that I have a longer barrel, I might be tempted to try it one time. I will probably try duplexing N-133 also along with 2015 and who knows what else? For me, this is the fun part of playing with these smokeless ML's. For guys like Tar, it is just a means to put meat on the table and frankly, most any Savage out of the box with their generic load will do that. For me, I'm looking to extract every bit of accuracy I can so if I have the right opportunity to hunt with it, I have a high level of confidence in my load. (I did a a ton of hunting all my life from the north east to several western states, to Saskatchewan and New Foundland) I no longer have two sons at home that require venison three or four days a week so hunting is no longer paramount in my life. I enjoy shooting and competition. Richard
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Post by DBinNY on Sept 8, 2010 20:53:28 GMT -5
Very nice Richard. I tore the head off a woodchuck last week at 127 yards with my (actually DaveD's) slow poke 2700 fps 63 gr H4198 200 XTP load. These things definitely shoot well and with a wide variety of loads.
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Post by Dave W on Sept 8, 2010 22:04:20 GMT -5
Richard, I've been watching all your results with the 45 Pacnor and appreciated what you are doing. I like N120 as a single powder in my 45 Pacnor but N120 is hard to find. I have been looking at the results of the N130 and N120 duplexed. The N130 appears to have about the same speed as N120 duplexed. Have you tried N130 as a single powder? It appears that it could be shot as a single powder using the same weights. What do you think? N130 is supposed to have a similar burn to H322 and 10X so it should work as a single, maybe better for speed than those two since RB mentioned at one time that the N series of powders seem to get to pressure quicker. I doubt you will get the efficiency as a single that Rich gets duplexing since someone put 65gr @ 2700fps in the load database but you still may find a good load since I have seen some good groups with H322 as a single. 10X might be better for ignition since it is a double based powder and I believe N130 is single based. Only one sure way to find out and that is to try it.
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Post by ET on Sept 9, 2010 7:08:23 GMT -5
Richard
As said before it is always enjoyable to follow your range sessions and Thanks for taking the time to share.
I am impressed with 200-FTX results and only wish I could get the 250gr version with a sabot in my 50 to even remotely come close to this level. Mind you I’m still waiting for my 225-FTX order to arrive and try my luck. For some reason I have not found an easy source for them. One day perhaps. ;D
Ed
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Post by dave d. on Sept 9, 2010 8:42:40 GMT -5
question I thought rel 7 was suppose to be around the same burn rate as h4198 is this true?
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Post by edge on Sept 9, 2010 8:45:08 GMT -5
Very nice Is your rifle always in the same condition, as far as cleaning goes, when you go to the range? If so would you mind shooting your first two fouling shots at a target, with that 6/64 N110/N120 load? We don't know where the first fouler went and it would be very cool if the second one went where shot #1 on that target went. IMO, that would be invaluable information for the hunters here. Thanks. edge.
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Post by Richard on Sept 9, 2010 9:14:28 GMT -5
Edge..........I will do that the next time. What I generally do (if you look at the top of my load sheet) is just take one of those Renier (lead plated bullets) and stuff it in a sabot that I don 't generally use (Blue crush rib) and then load one of dave d's mild loads (58 gr. H-4198) and just shoot it into the berm (so I don't mess up my target board). I was fully expecting the second shot to be OK? I guess not? So, as you can see, if I only then fired a three shot group, it still would have been an inch and a half group right? But, my first shot at that 300 yard deer might not have been where I expected it to be? Suppose that #1 shot was as low as it was high? Then, it could have easily been a miss our wound. And who knows? Maybe the next time out it will make a liar out of me? .........But based on this scenario and this load combination, I would definitely use my same cleaning procedure and fire at least two shots prior to going to the woods. To further answer your question, yes, my rifle is always in the same condition at the start. After a shooting session when I get home, I run a wet patch thru the bore. I then take a .45 brass brush and run it in and out the barrel a couple of times. I then run maybe two patches thru and done! You can't imagine how tight those three FTX's loaded! I had to literally hand my 190 lbs on the over sized T-handle of the rod and "grunt" about six or seven times to get those bullets seated. Obviously it sealed well So as a note to shooters new to muzzle loading, you cannot get a bullet in your bore so tight that it will cause it to blow up. We actually hammered one down Herman's barrel with a steel rod and it shot just fine What you think is tight is nothing to the pressure developed in the chamber. DBinNY.......I totally agree. They are very consistent..........and with a variety of combinations. They really lend themselves to just "tweaking" rather than struggling as was my case with the Savage .50. From what Jeff posts, the PN .50 is on a similar par with the .45 in that area. Richard
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Post by edge on Sept 9, 2010 12:02:09 GMT -5
question I thought rel 7 was suppose to be around the same burn rate as h4198 is this true? Quickload ESTIMATES: 80 grains of powder with a 208 grain projectile in a 458 straight case: RL-7 = 48,200 psi @ 3141 fps; H4198 = 49,000 @ 3109; I4198 = 44,500 @ 3128; Norma 200 = 46,000 @ 3125; N120 = 45,000 @ 3127. edge.
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Post by Dave W on Sept 9, 2010 13:00:49 GMT -5
question I thought rel 7 was suppose to be around the same burn rate as h4198 is this true? Quickload ESTIMATES: 80 grains of powder with a 208 grain projectile in a 458 straight case: RL-7 = 48,200 psi @ 3141 fps; H4198 = 49,000 @ 3109; I4198 = 44,500 @ 3128; Norma 200 = 46,000 @ 3125; N120 = 45,000 @ 3127. edge. Thanks for the info Edge. I remember reading on the old board when the .45 was just getting started and RB timed 68gr of the IMR 4198 at 2900fps. If it doesn't misfire, would seem like the best option for speed and lower pressure to avoid sabot failure. Dave, #7 & H4198 timed nearly identical speeds sabotless with 300gr'ers, H4198 was a little more efficient as the bullet weight dropped.
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Post by rangeball on Sept 9, 2010 13:36:22 GMT -5
Target #4 was my first attempt at sabot less in the new barrel and all I can say is WOW . Here is the thing....They were way too tight to want to shoot five shots. I actually got almost out of breath trying to stuff them down the barrel. I even bent my newly made solid aluminum ram rod. But, accuracy was super and at 3115 fps with a five fps ES. Richard, some time ago in one your posts I asked if you'd considered sizing down closer to bore size so you didn't have to knurl up as much, possibly potentiating accuracy. Does this experience make you want to re-do your dies to bore size?
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Post by Richard on Sept 9, 2010 20:33:50 GMT -5
I have actually sized bullets so I can use them without any knurling. But........it is quite "touchy." If you get any crud build up in the barrel, they get hard to get down. I would rather be under-sized and then knurled up. This way, you will only have to compress those little "knurlies" when you seat the bullet. I also think these little kurlies better grab the rifling. Richard
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Post by rbinar on Sept 11, 2010 2:30:39 GMT -5
8-)Some times you just gotta speak! I haven't done much so lately but guess it's about time.
This post poses some puzzles for me: I've not gone to the point of "what the *&^%" yet but I may be on my way.
One of the great things is sabot survival. It's hot in this part of the country so I don't expect sabots to be best in my climate. However the blue Harvester has never been such a performer to hold up to a really big load.
In most of the rifles I've worked with you can have sabot disruption with as little as 59 grains of H-4198 or Reloader #7. In cooler climates 60 or even the low 60s shoot with fairly safe for the sabot. However much more than 62 or 63 grains shows intermittent death for sabots as reported to me from places as cool as New Jersey, Ohio, Oregon, and Utah.
How 75 grains of Reloader #7 as a single does not disrupt a bare sabot is a mystery to me. Now in case you'll answer cool rod: This much blows the first shot so cooling is no issue. When you combine 15 grains of N110 to make a 75 grain load that's considerably faster than H-4198 or Reloader #7 it's hard to even consider how it wouldn't blast sabots, especially the blue Harvester, which is wicked accurate but not known to be tough.
I haven't broken to the "it's a safety issue" because even though the pressure is likely more than I'd suggest it still is withing a "well designed rifle" limit at near or slightly above 50,000psi. However I'd expect vent liner to be either extra hardened or last few shots.
If you want to jump on me because I haven't posted in a while and when I do it seems negative then: OK I'll try harder. Still when I see results reported that I can't repeat I'd get to wondering what's happening? That itself is no great thing I suppose there is a lot of things you can do I couldn't. Still I wonder how many others have seen sabot limits far less than suggested here, and if it's many why?
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Post by dave d. on Sept 11, 2010 5:31:55 GMT -5
:)i can only shoot 63grs of h4198 below 55 degrees up here in nj without blowing a sabot. i thought that 15/60 load might be a misprint but maybe richard has a magical barrel or sabots ;D. richard was that definitely saboted?
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Post by tar12 on Sept 11, 2010 7:03:09 GMT -5
RB, Good to hear from you...
Richard, I realize what your shooting game is all about.You are constantly pushing the envelope so to speak in your quest for speed and accuracy.The cooling rod is a vital part of this quest,yes?This pushing the limit of these loads? What I have a hard time understanding about the cooling rod concept is this..if you are shooting a given load at a given ambient temp. in conjunction with a cooling rod..lets say 60-70 degrees..what happens to that lights out never blows a sabot scorching 4198 load in 80 degree plus temps with out the artificial means to cool the barrel?Blown sabots from only the ambient temps?On the first shot?Has this concept been tested?What is the temperature failure point here?That is ambient VS artificial? Would one not be setting themselves up for failure to expect the artificial results achieved at 60-70 degrees to be repeatable at @80 plus without the rod?
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Post by bigmoose on Sept 11, 2010 7:54:23 GMT -5
Lacking Edge's knowledge of psi, I have followed, the advise Rick, gave me, I let the sabot tell me when I'm using a load that getting too close to trouble. When I last shot my 400gr Buster bullet, the sabot looked good, and I was wondering if I could up the load from 70grs of Benchmark to 71 or 71.5, maybe get 2200fps, I have not yet tried. Maybe in cooler weather Edge can tell me if the load is over the top. Brother Rick, Hearing from you, is like seeing a 60" Moose come out of the bushes. It very good. As always my very best wishes to you and yours, Marty
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Post by Dave W on Sept 11, 2010 9:35:40 GMT -5
I'm with Dave D, but my Shilen would blow intermittent sabots even at 35* with the 62gr H4198 load , this was alternating between guns which would put the shots roughly 10 minutes apart at this temp. Part of it I believe is Richards swabbing method, the Rem cleaner is oily and it is a mild abrasive which may be taking any/more plastic residue and fouling out of the barrel, which would keep the barrel condition more consistent from my point of view. I tried his swabbing routine at 90* with no wait between shots, I got to the 10th shot before I blew a sabot with a load that typically would blow a sabot after 2-3 shots in cooler weather with approximately 10 minutes between shots. The stuff has a strong odor though and there is no way I would carry it in the woods so it is pointless for me to use it. Some barrels just handle pressure better also.
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Post by dave d. on Sept 11, 2010 10:44:19 GMT -5
Dave thanks for your response and that maybe a very valid point if we were talking 3,4,5 grs but we are talking 12 to 17grs difference when you add the n110 into the mix. I don't know if my math is right but isn't that like a 20 percent increase in powder charge. Will cleaning your bore After every shot really make that big of a difference? now I want to make this clear I am not trying to bash Richard in anyway I enjoy his post like everybody else but I'm just trying to figure out how he can shoot so much more powder then pretty much most of us.
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Post by Dave W on Sept 11, 2010 11:17:34 GMT -5
Dave, there was another guy a while back that reported shooting 69gr H4198 with 200XTP's with no problems, I admit I have a hard time getting my head around it.
I can't see the barrel cooler getting a barrel down to near freezing or below in 80-90* weather and staying there by the time you get around to loading and settling in behind the gun and firing the shot, but who knows.
I would like to see some testing by someone who uses a barrel cooler and a barrel thermometer to see just what temp the barrel is just before the shot is fired.
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Post by Chris Champion on Sept 12, 2010 16:40:14 GMT -5
I tried 64g of H4198 in my 45 last winter after the season was over. Didn't blow sabots but the bases looked very stressed and accuracy was not what I wanted. Speed was in the 2770-2780 range and temp was in the 20's. I hunt with 63g H4198 which gives me 2750-2760 in sub 40 temps.
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Post by Richard on Sept 12, 2010 19:56:00 GMT -5
OK.........Man, am I stirring up a can of worms or what? ? First off, let me say this: Richard is not a Bull Shooter! Richard shoots every week with Herman, a well respected and long time member on this board. Herman can attest to my results. Also, Herman is shooting most all of my loads that shoot good........Right Herman? If I get a load that shoots a bug hole one week, guaranteed Herman will be shooting it the next week. ;D Now mind you, Herman NEVER cleans his barrel? He does use a cool rod. And NO, my barrel never gets anywhere near freezing. To me it just feels..................well, feels normal/ambient? I don't leave it in more than 30 sec. or so. And, Herman ONLY occasionally might blow a sabot? So, now everyone has a dilemma right? Cool rod and VERY minimal cleaning or cool rod and NO cleaning and STILL not blowing sabots at 3100 fps with a sabot that allegedly is not tough? (I'm not busting on you RB, just stating your opinion) I say the sabot IS tough! I would think the minimal cleaning I do does help, but Herman does not clean??? I just find that I can shoot all year in any temperatures as long as I keep the barrel just normal temperature. In the winter time when we shoot from inside a "warmer" say 45 to 50* environment with the outside temps around 30*, I just stick the rod out from under a slightly open window to cool it. No ice! Richard
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Post by ewc on Sept 12, 2010 20:03:03 GMT -5
Not my business, but you mentioned Herman 8-9 times in defending your post.
I do HR stuff as a sideline and that's a red flag.
Just sayin'...
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Post by zakjak221 on Sept 12, 2010 20:13:24 GMT -5
Holy Cow Richard,thats some nice shootin. Thanks for sharin the load info. with us. Love the clover leaf's!! Mark
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2010 21:04:03 GMT -5
Richard, been trying some of your loads and getting similar results but my crono is screwed up so I need to find another but with a 8 minute wait between loads, no blown sabots. and this on a very dirty barrel ( my accuracy suffers when I clean) and mid 80s temps. so I KNOW you are straight up on your info.....Bill
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Post by Dave W on Sept 12, 2010 21:32:04 GMT -5
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Post by boarhog on Sept 13, 2010 1:15:58 GMT -5
Not too long ago, Rossman40 sent me a handy dandy point and shoot thermometer he had found on sale somewhere. I have been shooting fairly regularly all summer, and have used the thermometer to get an idea how cool the barrel must be to keep sabot failure from happening. Several of my range sessions have been in 102-107* temps, according to the weatherman, and the regular thermometer I carry in my shooting box. Until I tried shooting at temps above 105*, I was cooling my rod in a small ice chest, with only about 12-14" of rod actually in the ice, but I noticed that the barrel tested 94-96* after cooling. When I would load a tight Harv blue sabot, I would feel the sabot stretching. Recovered sabots were not drilled or shredded, but would have petals that looked like they had been stretched past the breaking point. After building a full length rod cooler, I was able to get the barrel down to between 88 and 92*, tested beside the rear sight on the 50s, and just under the front scope bell on the 45. I have shot the 45 with several of Richard's pretty hot loads with 0 sabot problems, as long as the barrel tests below 94*. 5/65 N-110/N-120, 15/55 N-110/N-130, 15/56 A-5744/H-322, and some others I can't quote right now. I have decided to back down a little from the max loads he has used, not because of sabots, but because I have been seeing a little too much primer stress, and bulge.
Sunday afternoon, I had planned to continue my comparison of IMR and H-4198 in my 45 P-N, and I had vials of 63-64-65 gr of each weighed up to test. I also had duplexes of 6/62 N-110/N-120, and 13/60 N-110/RE-7 ready to test, but when I got to the JCGC range, they were having a trap match that had been re-scheduled from Labor Day weekend. I'll try again next weekend. Boarhog
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