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Post by bigmoose on Jun 25, 2009 12:55:37 GMT -5
I have spoken to Toby many times, He is a storehouse of info on the Savage Rifle. I remember when you called Savage Tech Service, they gave you Tiby's number, " he can answer all your question's, he's the expert" Never once in my conversations with him did he say, don't use your rifle, the last time we spoke, I told him, I was close to 6000 shots fired, his only suggestion was to change the PB after 500 shoots, right or wrong, its cheap insurance. He did say and has been saying this for many years, Ball orginal design called for the BP to be threated all the way, Since I use Ricks plug, which is threated the lenght of the plug, its not a problem for me. As for the folks that know Toby's inner thoughts, well they just know him better than the rest of use, or on the other hand, there full of ----.
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orion
8 Pointer
Posts: 128
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Post by orion on Jun 25, 2009 12:57:32 GMT -5
RBINAR, Well you have a point. I tend to agree with you based on the thousands of shots fired by people on this board, yourself, and including my self. From my interpretation of Toby's alert, (maybe I don't understand what he is trying to say) you could mill or file some slots or groves into the end of your breach plug to emulate gas cutting and then shoot your 50, this would make it unsafe.
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Post by ozark on Jun 25, 2009 13:54:43 GMT -5
If I rememember correctly the forward part of the breech plug is domed shaped and shoud fit into a concave matching shape in the barrel. In theory this should seal off gasses from ever reaching the threaded portion of the BP. The vent liner has a small hole which obviously would permit some pressure to come backward through that hole. But, IMO a small hole such as that in the vent liner or small gas cuts in the BP would be a restrictive valve that would not let bore pressure be equal behind and ahead of the bp. and vent liner. The pressure from the vent liner hole isn't sufficient to cause damage to the brass primer. I know very little about the Toby/Savage relationship or if there is ill feelings. But, that affair isn't causing the Savage to be stronger or weaker. I trust its strength and their quality control. Anyone who doesn't trust them should avoid shooting their rifles IMO.
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Post by bigmoose on Jun 25, 2009 14:10:22 GMT -5
ozark, Amen to your last sentence.
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Post by KerryB on Jun 25, 2009 14:15:43 GMT -5
The vent liner has a small hole which obviously would permit some pressure to come backward through that hole. But, IMO a small hole such as that in the vent liner or small gas cuts in the BP would be a restrictive valve that would not let bore pressure be equal behind and ahead of the bp. and vent liner. The pressure from the vent liner hole isn't sufficient to cause damage to the brass primer. Ozark, I think you have made a very important, valid, overlooked and glaring point about pressure leaking around the slight gas cutting on the front of the breechplug. You appear to be correct that the .031-.037 hole in the ventliner doesn't let enough pressure back through to rupture a flimsy little brass/copper primer, so a slight gas leak around a breechplug snout probably couldn't let enough gas escape in enough volume or pressure to blow up a barrel. The barrel is obviously tougher than the primer! KUDOS my friend! I support your theory! KerryB
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Post by rossman40 on Jun 25, 2009 16:11:13 GMT -5
The gas cutting theory doesn't quite work. How many guys have shot with breechplugs that have became over a 1/4 turn loose? I know I have. Maybe the next time someone takes off a barrel with some miles maybe have it checked for cracks. But then again TB says two of the rifles had less 100 rounds (which makes me wonder about the experience level of the those shooters with the 10ML).
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Post by bigmoose on Jun 25, 2009 17:55:35 GMT -5
rossman,
I wonder if a new shooter or old one for that matter, double charged there rifle or left the ram rod in, would come out and say, " I did it" or would they look for someone else to blame or sue. At the every least get a new rifle. I hope to double my 6000 shoots before, I'm to old to load or shoot my Savages.
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lc
Forkhorn
Posts: 72
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Post by lc on Jun 25, 2009 18:17:34 GMT -5
I just now was able to view the burst barrel pictures site wouldn't open for me when this discussion started. I have seen the exact some damage, but the one I saw the action was also cracked to the first screw hole for the scope base. The cause was the owner LOADED the 10 ML ll didn't shoot it then sometime later borrowed it to his buddy.His buddy loaded it AGAIN ! KABOOM!!The only thing they didn't do was double up on the primer.
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Post by KerryB on Jun 25, 2009 18:41:55 GMT -5
The gas cutting theory doesn't quite work. How many guys have shot with breechplugs that have became over a 1/4 turn loose? I know I have. Maybe the next time someone takes off a barrel with some miles maybe have it checked for cracks. But then again TB says two of the rifles had less 100 rounds (which makes me wonder about the experience level of the those shooters with the 10ML). You're exactly correct about the loose breechplugs. I have read several times about guys shooting till they started having trouble closing the bolt. Finally they discovered that the bolt had contacted the breechplug tightly enough that it backed the bp out to the point the bolt wouldn't close any more. They had to turn the breechplug back in quite a lot to seat it again. Surely a loose breechplug would offer more of a gap between the barrel and bp than a little gas cutting would. I agree that the gas cutting theory just doesn't pan out in my mind either. For what that is worth! ;D
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Post by boarhog on Jun 25, 2009 19:22:56 GMT -5
RBinAR, I don't know how to quote anything so I'll just jump right in.
I would feel much happier if there had been an obvious human (me) error when my barrel was damaged. I freely admit that the most likely cause was something I did wrong at some point, but if it happened when I think it did, because of the way I had loads lined up and how many I shot, etc, etc like a broken record, then none of the most likely causes happened. It is the uncertainty of not knowing exactly what happened and why that bothers me. If my ramrod pieces were scattered down range and the barrel banana peeled, at least I would know definitely what happened. More than that, I would have a better assurance that, if I didn't make a stupid flub like that again, I would not have to ever worry about a recurance.
This entire thread has been sort of one of those Goat Hunts. I have been a bit surprised by the high feelings that have been aroused. I certainly never intended to point fingers or hurt feelings in any way. I only want to feel like the Savage ML10II is as safe as it is possible to make something that works by explosion. We live with calculated risk every day of our lives. From crossing the street to riding in cars. We just have to manage that risk by learning to look both ways before stepping off the curb.
As I said earlier, I don't know Toby Bridges, but he seems to be generally well respected in the ML community. As I would with anyone, I will give him the benefit of the doubt to some degree. I'm not going to stop shooting my Savage, but I am going to be extra careful when loading, as well as, check the BP for flame cutting. That is only being prudent. Boarhog
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Post by ozark on Jun 25, 2009 19:52:22 GMT -5
boarhog, I think you are viewing this whole thing wisely. Many things could cause a blowup and it is doubtful if all blowups will ever be solved as to the reason. As you say it is a calculated risk and since you feel sure it wasn't an error on your part it is natural for you to seek the precise cause. As an auto mechanic I used to magiflux engine heads to determine if there were internal cracks. Some were found. This would seem to indicate that there is a possibility of internal flaws in rifle barrels, receivers and other parts. When troopers bail out of planes they trust that the chutes will function flawlessly. But some don't so there is an element of risk. What happened to you could be a cause for suffering from PTSD as surely as does returning veterans from wartime experience. But the truth is that no one knows why your rifle failed and I believe that you are convinced you followed correct procedures. So, try to see it as a uncommon occurance and consider the hundred of thousands that have been fired without incident. The odds of it happening to you again are awesome in your favor. If possible put it behind you. I have had to give several things in my life a good session of thinking and concluding that I am better off not to worry excessively about what isn't at all likely.
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Post by rbinar on Jun 25, 2009 19:52:24 GMT -5
RBINAR, Well you have a point. I tend to agree with you based on the thousands of shots fired by people on this board, yourself, and including my self. From my interpretation of Toby's alert, (maybe I don't understand what he is trying to say) you could mill or file some slots or groves into the end of your breach plug to emulate gas cutting and then shoot your 50, this would make it unsafe. That's a great idea: or then again I could do this: This plug is one I took on a trade. It was provided by a board member here but I won't use his name unless he says it's OK I don't have a camera that will shoot ultra close up without blurring but still I hope you can see the wear on this plug around the barrel seal. There are at least 6 separate areas where the gas has cut relief channels around the plug. I have been shooting this obviously worn out plug since the day I got it in an attempt to cause a problem. To date I have 291 shots recorded on this plug with no sign of a problem for rifle or plug. Most those loads are Imr-4759 under a 300 grain XTP and a Harvester short black sabot. Powder level was restricted to 43 grains maximum. Some shots were fired with 70 grains of H4198 and a 250 grain SST. I hope no one (except me) would shoot with a plug in this condition. Before it got half this bad it seems the logical thing to do would be to replace it. Few would understand to what levels I'd go to to try to cause a failure.
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Post by KerryB on Jun 25, 2009 20:05:03 GMT -5
Dang RB..............you da man! ;D
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Post by bigmoose on Jun 26, 2009 5:19:43 GMT -5
Rick,
How about calling this experiment over and done.
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Post by rbinar on Jun 26, 2009 5:53:52 GMT -5
RBinAR, I don't know how to quote anything so I'll just jump right in. This entire thread has been sort of one of those Goat Hunts. I have been a bit surprised by the high feelings that have been aroused. I certainly never intended to point fingers or hurt feelings in any way. I only want to feel like the Savage ML10II is as safe as it is possible to make something that works by explosion. We live with calculated risk every day of our lives. From crossing the street to riding in cars. We just have to manage that risk by learning to look both ways before stepping off the curb. Boarhog If there's one thing for sure it's you need not be worried by what you're posting or will post. Your concerns are well grounded. This subject is charged for sure. But we wouldn't have a board if everything could be expressed by a single idea or emotion. The 10ML was born in controversy. There were a hoard of shooters who had heard the party line for so long that they expected a line of mangled bodies from shooting smokeless in a muzzle loader. So our discussion is mild to some had in the past. Never be worried about expressing what you think here as long as it decent and honest. Worse that could happen is we learn something. Though it may seem like I'm a bear at times I've had my foot in my mouth far enough to taste the socks. So we need you to keep me in line. It's a tough job but somebody's got to do it.
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Post by bigmoose on Jun 26, 2009 7:50:24 GMT -5
Rick,
I'm very selfish, if that bad plug rifle blows up, who will answer when I have a problem, and face Texarkana and scream as loud as I can HELP.
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Post by dougedwards on Jun 26, 2009 9:21:26 GMT -5
On Monday June 22nd, I left Joe Degrande of Savage Arms a voice mail inquiring about an incident that allegedly happened in Tennessee where a man may have lost his thumb as a result of a Savage 10ML catastrophic blow up. I did point out that this information was gathered from a website and the article was written by Toby Bridges and that I was only inquiring as to the validity of this claim.
As of today June 26th I have had no response to my request even though Joe has always been very prompt in responding to my previous voice mails. I don't know if this silence is indicative of anything in particular but I would think at the very least there could have been some sort of response possibly explaining the legal and sensitive nature of the incident, if the incident in fact actually occurred at all.
It doesn't appear that we will be getting any help from Savage Arms as to our concerns for the safety aspect of the 10ML and it's breech plug. RB has presented some evidence to us to indicate that his experience with the 50 caliber Savage breech plug is that even with some apparently severe gas cutting on the nose of the plug, the rifle continued to shoot without any evidence of damage to the barrel or to the shooting system as a whole. However one man's experience might not be consistent with every man's experience and it would be nice if Savage could reinforce our confidence by, at the very least, offering an explanation of what we should do if our breech plug appears to have some cutting develop on the nose where the vent liner screws into the plug. To my knowledge, Savage has not even acknowledged that gas cutting even exists in their system as it relates to the breech plug and has explained the marks as machine tool marks instead of some sort of cutting due to the hot gases produced during combustion on the plug.
I must say that I haven't called back yet to inquire why there has been no response. Joe could be on vacation for all that I know. However it does seem that all points made here on this board have been out of genuine concern and that they should be addressed by Savage Arms either via phone call or email.
Doug
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Post by edge on Jun 26, 2009 9:55:04 GMT -5
IMO, the hundreds of thousands if not millions of shots taken with the Savage proves that they are safe within reason. IMO, any blow ups NOT caused by human error are so few and far between as to almost constitute an act of God! Accidents happen. Last month an Air France jet crashed into the Atlantic. Hundreds died, and yet your biggest risk in flying is driving to the airport. The only way to ensure that your Savage does not blow up is to not pull the trigger! Is there a number of shots on a barrel that you should not exceed...no one knows for sure. If you shoot 4 or 5 thousand shots then spring for a PacNor as you got your money out of the Savage barrel anyway, and you will have a quality barrel and peace of mind too edge.
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Post by bigmoose on Jun 26, 2009 10:23:47 GMT -5
Edge,
A double amen to that.
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Post by rossman40 on Jun 26, 2009 13:05:00 GMT -5
I wonder if the Canadian incident posted by LC and the one mentioned by TB is the same one?
Regardless it is proof that a Savage 10ML can blow. Of course that is true with any firearm. The big question is the circumstances/conditions which face it, unless it happens under laboratory conditions we may never have the exact reason for every incident. It could range from the one in 10,000 bad barrel blank that got by QC, deterioration of powder (5744 is a double base powder contain 20% nitro glycerin, bad things could happen) and of ever present chance/probability of human error. Then there is the alignment of the planets and the feng shui of the range. And of course a combination of any of the above.
We have the blow-ups and the un-explained bulges, are they related?
Again it is a warning that safety and maintenance procedures must be followed which again is required for every firearm.
I think Savage is keeping mum for a reason. Number one rule is do not give ammo to lawyers so if any statement is given it will be carefully worded.
I'm surprised it hasn't came up over on modermmuzzleloader.com or savageshooters.com. If it did come up on savageshooters.com the moderator there would probly delete it.
I commend RB with his research and he deserves a big attaboy from all 10ML shooters.
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Post by mulespurs on Jun 26, 2009 17:59:29 GMT -5
Would it work to just drill a vent hole in side of your barrel,behind the seal surface of your breech plug and before the threads start,on just like the one on the side of your action to vent all these leaking gases out before they could build up any pressure?
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Post by KerryB on Jun 26, 2009 18:52:55 GMT -5
Would it work to just drill a vent hole in side of your barrel,behind the seal surface of your breech plug and before the threads start,on just like the one on the side of your action to vent all these leaking gases out before they could build up any pressure? I'm just speaking for me but i'm not drilling any holes anywhere in my barrel...........i want it stronger rather than weaker and extra holes just aren't for me............but if i did drill a hole in the barrel, i would probably want a miniature muffler mounted there! ;D
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Post by grouse on Jun 26, 2009 20:03:45 GMT -5
dougedwards, I think Joe will atleast confirm he got your email when time permits. He has alway's been very thorough and help full. He very well could be on vacation. It might even be plant shut down?
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Post by ozark on Jun 26, 2009 20:32:30 GMT -5
Plant shut down? When it comes to speculating members of this board can take a front row seat. Yes, he could be on vacation, his MLII could have blowed up and killed him. His wife may have shot him with a center fire pistol. Actually the rifles in question didn't blow up. They just come untogether some.
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Post by grouse on Jun 26, 2009 21:06:33 GMT -5
Plant shut down? When it comes to speculating members of this board can take a front row seat. Yes, he could be on vacation, his MLII could have blowed up and killed him. His wife may have shot him with a center fire pistol. Actually the rifles in question didn't blow up. They just come untogether some. For your information savage shuts down the plant for a week or two every year. Just don't remember what month. Are you a Moderator? ?
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Post by ozark on Jun 26, 2009 21:17:47 GMT -5
Yes, I was selected as a Moderator. May have been a mistake though. Are you trying to say someting that I don't undestand?
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Post by dougedwards on Jun 26, 2009 21:39:14 GMT -5
dougedwards, I think Joe will at least confirm he got your email when time permits. He has alway's been very thorough and help full. He very well could be on vacation. It might even be plant shut down? I don't think that the plant has shut down this week because on Monday a lady answered the phone and put me into Joe Degrande's voice mail. She could have been only an out-sourced answering service I guess. I have actually been too busy this week to call back. I do believe that this gas cutting of the breech plug should be addressed in some way. It seems that no one else designs a breech plug with an extended and unthreaded snout. Edge has said that Savage does this only to ease the manufacturing cost which is fine with me if and only if this current design is strong enough to insure NO catastrophic blow ups as a result of the gas cutting that seems to occur on the nose of the snout. If there is any danger whatsoever associated with the breech plug then Savage should at least warn us to keep a watch on the plug and replace it after a certain number of shots. Savage Arms has proven to us, over the years, that they have an outstanding customer service department and it is my prayer that they won't wimp out on us now. Doug
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Post by grouse on Jun 26, 2009 21:52:01 GMT -5
Savage Arms has proven to us, over the years, that they have an outstanding customer service department and it is my prayer that they won't wimp out on us now. Doug Don't worry, they wont.
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Post by boarhog on Jun 26, 2009 22:59:55 GMT -5
Joe DeGrande answered an email from me in one day. It was nothing so controversial as barrel bursts. When he called to let me know my new barrel was on its'way back, he asked me to send him a follow up shooting report. I sent him some pix of the targets I posted here, and thanked him for his customer service. The next day he sent a nice note complementing my fab shooting skills, and asked me to let him know how I made out with a CT scan I was about to have the day he called as well as an update on the Nuclear Stress Test I have scheduled for Monday. Good customer service and taking a personal interest in their customers is pretty special for a big company.
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Post by grouse on Jun 26, 2009 23:07:46 GMT -5
Are you trying to say someting that I don't undestand? NOPE
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