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Post by rangeball on Jul 24, 2009 14:05:20 GMT -5
The "Savage Response" in post #11 is pretty telling
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Post by Buckrub on Jul 24, 2009 14:08:53 GMT -5
Good Grief. See why I just post at The Back Porch these days? I don't even want to learn all it'd take to understand this pile of bullfeathers. I know in whom I trust, and I believe that I have a safe gun, and till the Devil arrests me for killing deer too dead, I'll still be shooting it. I promise to use loads recommended to me here by smart folks, and which I've tried and which I've shot repeatedly and which (so far) work beyond my wildest dreams. If my rifle blows up in the process of doing that, I will PRAY that I die shortly AFTER the deer does that is about 300 yards away in my sights, when it happens. If it happens, do NOT mourn for me, because I did it willingly and with (one) eye open. As for heart, I know more about this than anyone. I am now in the 5th year of recovery from LAD (Widowmaker) 100% Occlusion. I am one of the 5% that survive such events. I have two stents cascaded together at the opening of the LAD artery into the heart cavity. 2 years later, I later had a pain and the doc did a Nuclear Stress Test. I flunked it big time. He went in and did a Heart Cath expecting to wheel me into bypass surgery. OOOPS. He found clear arteries! Hmmm, he said as he scratched his head. I blew up (when I woke up). I told him not to bother any more with doing stupid Stress Tests, as those are clearly and inimitably worthless. But I'll tell ya what. IF you happen to survive one of these awful things (heart attack) as I did, you sorta come to have little (if any) worry about shooting a rifle that hundreds have shot, and you tend to ignore some internet-attention-grabber, whomever he might be (I have no clue who Toby Bridges is, and even less interest). I do know some folks who have Savage websites are pretty much thieves and jerkwaters, and I know that first hand, and I try to stay away from them. I'll stick with arguing with Ben and Rossman and Richard even Edge when I can understand him...he's so danged over my head mostly I get lost. Till then, I'm way too lazy to worry about all this, and plan on shooting this ML till I fall over. I WILL say that I find it a bit amusing that folks will get all bent out of shape worrying about a load which THEY BUILD and which they put into a rifle, but then they don't hesitate to jerk cartridge after cartridge out of a box made by some guy who might or might not even speak English and who did Lord-Knows-What last night!!! Now THAT is just too ironic to hardly even contemplate. Ya'll feel free to keep discussing the finer points of such stuff though. And if a real breakthrough happens, don't hesitate to PM me. I really will need to know!!! Till then, I'm going back to my favorite fishing hole. See youse guise in a few months when it cools off. I love ya!
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Post by grouse on Jul 26, 2009 6:18:53 GMT -5
Somebody mentioned this thread should be moved. I agree since it's more about Toby then the actual question.
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Post by lwh723 on Jul 26, 2009 12:47:22 GMT -5
I guess I don't have a lot to add to this conversation. But it sure does seem like a lot of people that have no clue are doing a lot of speculation. (ETA: not trying to diss anybody. Rampant speculation is one of the things that makes the Internet fun! ) I don't know what TB's background is, but detonation from gas erosion seems like a stretch to me. Does he have any experience as a metallurgist, engineer, machinist, etc? Or is he just a guy that has done a lot of shooting. I recall seeing a couple of barrels similar to this over on a shotgun board, but the bulge is right at the chamber. There was a lot of debate as to whether it was detonation or a barrel obstruction, and just like the ML's, I don't think they ever reached a solid conclusion. I guess my conclusion, for what it is worth, is guns blow up every once in a while. A couple of one particular model reported by a guy who obviously has a reason to be mad at that particular gun maker is hard to take seriously. Obviously, with all the double loads that have happened to members here without catastrophic failure, the 10ML is a pretty tough design. While it's been an interesting read, I don't think this thread will make me flinch any more than I already do the next I pull the trigger on my 10ML.
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Post by edge on Jul 26, 2009 12:58:53 GMT -5
Toby worked for Knight when the Ball's tried to get Knight to make the smokeless ML.
Toby thought enough of it to become the spokesman for Savage! IIRC he did about 90% of the testing for Savage with the ML.
edge.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jul 26, 2009 14:50:42 GMT -5
lwh723,
I, like you, don't flinch much when squeezing off loads in my MLII. Some of those loads are bruisers too.
However, I think that this whole topic makes someone thinking of buying a Savage for all its' versitility, power and cleanliness sees these reports and scratches his head. He says....geeeez, I shoot alot but I don't KNOW about metals, engineering or design. He may have come across this board and maybe he hasn't.
Either way, he will pick up the phone and simply order a different gun and be done with it. And he won't buy another one for a long time and fade from the scene in terms of learning anythng either way.
LOST SALE! LOST BUSINESS for Savage. That's the big issue and that's why this topic is a big deal. We have people with an axe to grind and it is mis-informing the general population and it's costing Savage money in the process....by using scare tactics.....in an area that could be HUGE for them if common sense and marketing could come together.
That's all I got.
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Post by edge on Jul 26, 2009 17:33:07 GMT -5
Why Savage does not come to terms makes little sense to me either!
Forget Toby being an advocate, just him being an antagonist is enough to cost sales!
Come to some agreement and be done with it!
edge.
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Post by ozark on Jul 26, 2009 18:43:22 GMT -5
What bothers me is not speculation about the design or causes of the blow ups. What bothers me is the attitude of posters being bloated with resentments that sometimes seems personal. IMO the consumer has a right to know if a product is safe or unsafe and the manufacturs has an obligation to supply a product that is as safe as it can be made. Savage appears silent on the subject and have not made any denials or rebuttals that I have heard. They are accused rightly or wrongly that they are selling a poorly designed rifle.If their stance is to just settle out of court the few incidents that occur I feel that they are letting the dollar blind them from what is right and what is wrong. Individuals and companies are IMO expected to recognize their shortcomings and make the necessary corrections. I am not hearing anything from Savage but a lot of support from Savage owners. I love the Savage rifles and wish they would speak up and assure us that we have no concerns about their rifles being safe. Their silence appears to cause suspicion that something is really being swept under the rug. Their silence is yelling at me louder than the claims being made.We have absolutely no idea how many rifles they have had to replace. We do know that they are customer service oriented which is good. Still, I wonder when if ever they will come out with a definitive statement regarding the design and safety of their rifle.
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Post by grouse on Jul 26, 2009 20:14:20 GMT -5
Edge, Didn't back on the old board joe Degrande speak up on Toby's blown Savage? I thought he did for sure. Back then, Rilfeman was an Administrator i believe? Do you remember? I think back in 2004. Can you cut and paste some of that info here or link it?
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Post by Flatland Hunter on Jul 26, 2009 22:57:35 GMT -5
Show me any other breech plug on the face of the earth that is only partially threaded. I am not saying that they don't exist. White ML's have only partially threaded plugs IIRC... haven't looked at it since last year.
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Post by edge on Jul 27, 2009 7:26:58 GMT -5
I don't recall Savage ever saying anything on the Toby thing but it has been a long time! Those threads are all over and not in one place. You could do a search on the old board, or just go back to the November 2004 time frame and look page by page...there are a LOT of threads edge. Edge, Didn't back on the old board joe Degrande speak up on Toby's blown Savage? I thought he did for sure. Back then, Rilfeman was an Administrator i believe? Do you remember? I think back in 2004. Can you cut and paste some of that info here or link it?
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Post by rangeball on Jul 27, 2009 9:13:56 GMT -5
This was listed as "Savage Response" in the thread rossman linked to that I quoted above- "Jeff Quinn, www.gunblast.com, posted this as Savage's reply to the issue, over on the Frontier Sixshooter message board. Interesting.... I don't know who at Savage sent this to Jeff, or when. Contact him through his website if you have questions...... STATEMENT CONCERNING RECENT CONTROVERSY REGARDING THE SAVAGE 10MLII AND MR. TOBY BRIDGES As is often the case in life, there are two sides to every story and things are rarely what they seem, especially when one party is angry and has lost a substantial source of income through his own actions. Fact: Since the introduction of the 10ML smokeless technology, Savage Arms has used the contract services of Toby Bridges to test bullets, powders, sabots and primers on their behalf. The intent was to have Toby run concurrent tests with the factory and compare engineering notes. Savage also wanted to insure that new (evolving) technologies received a systematic and documented analysis so Savage could respond to customers and continue to gain more knowledge on the subject. Fact: Having sold thousands of 10ML rifles over the last 4 years, Savage is not aware of ONE catastrophic barrel failure (other than Toby’s), not one. Fact: Toby is both a very competent shooter and a knowledgeable technician. He is also a pioneer, which by nature, tends to push the boundaries of trial and error in order to arrive at a conclusion and determine the limits of various components, including the firearm steel. Fact: Savage knows that Toby ran more than 7,500 rounds through the rifle in question, according to his own admission and Savage knows he was experimenting with various sub bases placed above the powder and before the sabot, in an attempt to contain more pressure so it would not blow past the commercial sabot. Toby also experimented with layering powders in one load, which Savage considered dangerous and found it necessary to advise him to cease that practice. Savage considers that particular experiment to be unsafe and not in the best interests of the consumer. Fact: Savage had NEVER heard about a weak breech plug design, or any other safety related issue before Toby issued his statement--this observation came out of the blue and surprised the heck out of Savage. Fact: Toby lost his contract with the smokeless muzzleloader inventor (Henry Ball) for reasons that are not Savage’s business. Fact: After losing his employment with Henry, Toby became more aggressive about Savage providing him with greater involvement in the marketing and promotion of the 10ML, to help make up for the income loss. At no time did Toby suggest the 10ML materials, engineering, design or assembly was in any way dangerous or suspect. Fact: Toby’s agreement with Savage was terminated because he was unable to follow proper business protocol, was argumentative and on occasion, darn right insulting to management and accounts. While Savage appreciated his skills, they could not tolerate his unsafe test practices, lack of diplomacy and intolerance for input from others. Fact: Toby did not advise Savage he considered the barrel/breech plug manufacturing design to be weak, nor did he suggest that when the barrel separated, that it was anything other than progressive stress over thousands of rounds, some that pushed the pressure envelope and did untold successive damage. Fact: There is no design problem with the breech plug. Savage’s extensive testing has confirmed the integrity of the breech plug design. Savage Arms regrets Toby has taken this direction and has chosen to discredit both Henry Ball and Savage, after being such an avid supporter of the smokeless technology for so long. Savage is surprised and disappointed that Toby has turned his frustration on the very technology he helped promote and has not been able to acknowledge his own business and personal failings. Savage would never compromise their integrity, or offer a product they felt was in any way dangerous when used as intended and recommended by the user manual. Savage has been in business for 109 years, and has earned a reputation for making safe and affordable firearms. Do not use smokeless powder in any other muzzleloading firearm unless expressly recommended to do so by the manufacturer." Perhaps Savage thinks they addressed the issue back then, and their silence is intended to not lend any credibility to TB?
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Post by edge on Jul 27, 2009 9:39:04 GMT -5
I thought that that was from RW, but I may be wrong.
Personally the Toby incident is just too old to interest me, but the newer blow ups not associated with TB can't be blamed on his sour grapes!
edge.
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Post by rossman40 on Jul 27, 2009 11:25:40 GMT -5
I do not think it was directly straight from Savage ether IIRC. It is referenced as coming from this board but the link does not work. It may have been one of the threads that admin deleted when it became a back stabbing personality attack free-for-all by the major combatants.
The newer blow ups do not bother me too much. Right off the bat the statement that both rifles had less then 100 rounds makes me wonder about the shooters experience level. LC's post about the one he seen in Canada was the result of a double load also makes me wonder since TB did not give evidence like pictures and details such as date, location and load data. If TB does post a picture of the Canadian blow up and it matches up to what LC saw then that blows that "incident" out of the water. I did see post on another board of a blow up about a 11/2-2 years ago that I vaguely remember of possibly being in Tennessee ( I remember wondering if it was in Mountainman's neck of the woods) but I can not find it now. According to the post it was operator error and the photos were taken in what looked like a gun shop. TB's possible twist of SW's early "incident" also makes me wonder.
I'm not trying to bash TB, I've shook his hand and still have some respect for him and he still registers on my friend meter. He knows that I am still shooting the Savage and everytime we have conversed since the incident we do not mention it. It is easy to make claims, maybe I'm too smart/logical for my own good or it was the time I lived in Missouri but what are the facts and what is the evidence.
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Post by Dave W on Jul 27, 2009 15:39:42 GMT -5
I do not think it was directly straight from Savage ether IIRC. It is referenced as coming from this board but the link does not work. It may have been one of the threads that admin deleted when it became a back stabbing personality attack free-for-all by the major combatants. The newer blow ups do not bother me too much. Right off the bat the statement that both rifles had less then 100 rounds makes me wonder about the shooters experience level. LC's post about the one he seen in Canada was the result of a double load also makes me wonder since TB did not give evidence like pictures and details such as date, location and load data. If TB does post a picture of the Canadian blow up and it matches up to what LC saw then that blows that "incident" out of the water. I did see post on another board of a blow up about a 11/2-2 years ago that I vaguely remember of possibly being in Tennessee ( I remember wondering if it was in Mountainman's neck of the woods) but I can not find it now. According to the post it was operator error and the photos were taken in what looked like a gun shop. TB's possible twist of SW's early "incident" also makes me wonder. I'm not trying to bash TB, I've shook his hand and still have some respect for him and he still registers on my friend meter. He knows that I am still shooting the Savage and everytime we have conversed since the incident we do not mention it. It is easy to make claims, maybe I'm too smart/logical for my own good or it was the time I lived in Missouri but what are the facts and what is the evidence. Rossman, I think maybe Herman reported that incident but no more was heard of it. Found it. dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Savage&thread=5135&page=1
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Post by grouse on Jul 31, 2009 21:55:53 GMT -5
That statement was from RW. But, it's all still very true.
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