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Post by grouse on Jun 17, 2009 21:10:23 GMT -5
Can someone tell me how much above the vent-liner 40grns by weight of powder is? Thanks BTW-Did you guy's see Toby's got another savage blown up? www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Alert.html
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Post by rbinar on Jun 17, 2009 22:34:36 GMT -5
Can someone tell me how much above the vent-liner 40grns by weight of powder is? Thanks BTW-Did you guy's see Toby's got another savage blown up? www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Alert.html The powder column depends on the powder for common powders it goes like this for a 40 grain load. Imr-4759 = 1.2" Xmr-5744 = .92" N110 = 1.01" I won't comment about the other subject except to say if any other muzzle loader company had only experienced 2 blow ups in the last 10 years and one was had by the shooter who's trying to publicize the events they would consider their product perfectly safe.
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Post by pposey on Jun 19, 2009 20:14:01 GMT -5
Ya mine has failed to blow up after many many rounds,,,, so as far as TB is concerned thats probably a failure right?
You could easily measure the powder column with a dowel rod sitting on top of it.
and see my comment below,,, thats aimed at old TB
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Post by KerryB on Jun 20, 2009 9:08:50 GMT -5
I notice that TB mentioned several witnesses were there when the rifle exploded. I have to wonder how many of those witnesses observed the rifle being loaded properly? How many could confirm that it wasn't double loaded or otherwise improperly loaded? He mentioned that he was visiting with other shooters just moments before his rifle exploded.........and that in itself is a bad habit which breaks concentration and loading routine. Now i'm no expert, but that barrel looks like it might have had an obstruction several inches forward of the breechplug. Seems to me if the rupture started at the breechplug, then the barrel would be bulged the most from that point forward instead of the largest bulge several inches forward from there. That is only speculation on my part and keep in mind that the gas cutting theory is only speculation on TB's part. He is welcome to his and i am welcome to mine. I do know for a fact that many of our members have admitted to shooting double loads, shooting ramrods down range, etc., and none of those rifles have blown up, so i'm not too worried at this point about my 10MLII's. This should stir up some lively debate...........we just need to remember to keep it civil! KerryB
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Post by boarhog on Jun 20, 2009 9:41:17 GMT -5
I am not taking sides, other than my own. I read the TB comments and looked at the pix. Those BPs definitely looked like they had been washed out by something. I would like to know if Mr. Bridges' theory holds water, and more importantly, if it does, what can be done to keep something like that event from happening to others? I, for one, will be looking carefully at the shoulder of my breech plugs every time I check the vent liners. Just in case. Not that I would have a clue what to do about it if I do see flame cutting, other than stop shooting.
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Post by olegburn on Jun 20, 2009 10:33:40 GMT -5
I'm here not to express support or argument against TB. I have seen his pics and read his reasonings and made-up my mind back in 2004. I own Savage ML-II now and made it my main hunting rig for whitetails and now groundhogs,coyots and list goes on. That may indicate that I'm confident in ML-II. I do have unanswered questions that I live with,though. That gas cutting on the BP shoulder is one. I have those marks on mines. I have 3 BP. That may explain the blowback and powder residue on the bolt and inside an action. TB's argued in previous article (from 2004) that as gases cut past that shoulder they create a sort of secondary "detonation chamber" that is in the part of action/barrel that has least amount of metal and might cause it to explode. Article in the now link won't speculate on that for some reason just that pressures are leaked into that "compromised" area past the shoulder. I can't see that as valid thought due to the fact that, IMO,for the detonation you must have sealed chamber otherwise the excessive pressures will simply bleed off through the threads and into an action/bolt area. _If_ shoulder does leak-it does at reduced rate and though I don't like it-I don't think it might cause a detonation. I see the marks on the BP and I suspect that shoulder in the barrel might have it too. Do you guys think that those shoulders need turned on lathe after period of time to square them or not. That in turn may lead to headspace issue,but that can be fixed by headspacing (SW method in Tips area)? Now if I attracted some flak-don't worry about me-I can take it. I rather hear suggestions or correction. I been around here awhile and know that most members are first class people and I learned a lot here. olegburn
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Post by olegburn on Jun 20, 2009 10:51:18 GMT -5
Another thing I wondered about: Why Savage BP has unthreaded part on it? My thought was that it to keep as much metal in the barrel as possible for strength. Now why not just make BP shorter and be done with it? I heard before some1 explain that Savage wanted to create buffer area for backpressure to drop so it doesn't bulge 209 primers which makes sense. Man,did I just figured it all out? ;D
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Post by edge on Jun 20, 2009 11:43:51 GMT -5
IMO, it has the unthreaded portion to ease manufacturing. Nothing more and nothing less!
edge.
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Post by rbinar on Jun 20, 2009 21:51:46 GMT -5
Now if I attracted some flak-don't worry about me-I can take it. I rather hear suggestions or correction. I been around here awhile and know that most members are first class people and I learned a lot here. olegburn Don't worry about flak and I'm glad you would comment. This is a sensitive subject so it's bound to stir some emotion. It's hard to talk about from my own point of view because I conversed with Toby Bridges many times right here. He treated me well enough that the last thing I'd want to do is slander his character. At the same time I don't agree that the 10ML is dangerous. So what to do? Perhaps I should just concede I don't understand! Could you or someone else tell me what detonation is? What is a detonation chamber? Then could you tell me how to make it happen so I can repeat it in my own rifle? When someone explains the mechanism of function and how I can repeat the action I'll agree that it is a dangerous action and move to prevent it. One assumes that the load was a normal low pressure type that others have shot. If that's the case pass on the information and I will donate a rifle and fire that load in my safety rest until the rifle blows. Then at least some hard figures would be available. It is possible that the point Toby makes about the Savage breech plug came from me. There is no doubt that some here could back me up that I was one of the first to suggest the long snout on the Savage plug served little function other than making barrel machining easier. But even at that the plug works. Or maybe it doesn't, but I need someone to explain why not in that case as well. See I deal in facts. If detonation is a fact it can be explained in detail. If it is a word just to indicate the unknown then how can anyone understand? Facts: I don't know what happened. Without fact no conclusion can be made. There in not enough information to form an opinion. What may be obvious to some of you is my ego may be showing. Or put another way I'm not willing to accept someone else's conclusion without proof. Perhaps that makes me bull headed. But one thing for sure I don't expect you to accept what I say without proof either.
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Post by grouse on Jun 20, 2009 23:00:31 GMT -5
Rick, I know we all respect what you say and believe. I just dont understand why he keeps doing this? We all know the Savage is over built and completely safe. In my opinion he has nothing to gain by this.
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Post by Guessed on Jun 21, 2009 2:12:26 GMT -5
As I sit here eating my lunch in the dead of night, I wonder; could the plug become unscrewed just enough that the primer would still seat but powder might be able to migrate into the so called "detonation chamber" created by the gap between the the smooth shouldered side of the breech plug and the barrel wall ahead of the threaded section. Heating, cooling, and pressure spikes have all been known to loosen things up, from a maintenance point of view. Perhaps the gas erosion could become severe enough that a fine grained powder like IMR 4198 could migrate through the flame cuts and into the "detonation chamber". I dunno and I hope I never find out in a first hand manner, I'm just typing out loud. Next time I tear down my MLII I'll take a snap gauge and a mic to measure the clearance between the plug snout and barrel wall.
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Post by boarhog on Jun 21, 2009 6:14:43 GMT -5
I was just thinking something along this line. Last week, when I was doing some shooting, I picked up a .430 bullet that had been accidently mixed in with a bag of .452. I didn't notice the difference until I pushed the bullet/sabot into the bore. Naturally, it almost fell down the barrel. I didn't want to shoot it out, because of my recent bulge trauma, so I pulled the BP and pushed the load on out of the breech end. After cleaning the spilled powder out of the action and BP area, I reinstalled the BP and prepared to reload, but when I closed the bolt, I noticed it had some resistance. It must have had grains of powder caught in the BP threads and between that shoulder and the barrel. I was afraid to try to shoot with it in that condition, even though I was able to close the bolt on a primer taking some force to do so. I was about to load up all my gear and go back to the shop to do a better cleaning of the BP area when I thought to look in the cleaning kit I carry in my truck. Luckily I had one of those chamber cleaning flexible rods made out of stiff cable, and a couple of shotgun brushes and swabs. With them, I was able to do a much better job of clearing the BP area, and continue shooting.
Like Guessed suggested above, I wonder if a loosely seated BP could allow the cutting to start, or possibly let powder trickle into that non-threaded area until there is enough built up to do some damage? Perhaps it could eventually have enough powder build up, when combined with the max+ loads used by some to reach those legendary Rocket Speeds, push the pressure to the failure point?
Sometime events are hard to repeat. Perhaps some impossibly complicated set of actions, or conditions are required, that make the odds of it happening again almost as unlikely as my chances to win the new Arkansas Lottery.
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Post by whyohe on Jun 21, 2009 7:07:28 GMT -5
Rick, we trust you cause we see all the work you put into your testing and with diligence like that, it install confidence in what you say and post with your proof.
as to the toby thing, i will not guess or say why he does this. with so many Savages out there and so many of us shooting "heavy" loads you think we would see more if there was a significant design flaw. if what comes from this is that we look at our guns better while cleaning, that it is a good thing. when i noticed some gas cutting on my breech plug i just replace it. i consider that just prudent maintnance. we dont see or hear of any possible shooter error but is it not possible? how many of us have doubble charged or loaded our guns and even shot our ram rods down range? i think we all feel there can be improvements on the breech plug and that is why there are thoes out there that have modified and even redesigned their own.
i love my savage and i have faith in it and that is all i have to say .
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Post by dougedwards on Jun 21, 2009 8:05:13 GMT -5
Don't we all know that there were "sour grapes" left behind when Savage Arms and Toby Bridges parted ways? It was AFTER this separation that Toby's Savage 10ML blew up in his face (with no injury). That fact does taint things but doesn't automatically discount the validity of the catastrophic event.
What we do know is that these are hard economic times for muzzleloader sales. Knight, an iconic symbol of muzzleloaders, has actually closed it's doors and called it quits. The last thing that Savage Arms needs is another blown 10ML posted all over the Internet but the allegations continue from only one source.
If the allegations of the weakness of the breach plug have even the slightest hint of validity, do you think that Savage would just ignore it? Heck, Savage Arms shipped me a brand new barrel after I had bulged the old one with a double load! This company has a history of going out of it's way to keep it's customer safe at it's own expense, I might add. It would only follow that Savage would gladly endure the expense of threading the breach plug from snout to base if there was any chance at all that Toby's claims were verifiable.
However the "sour grapes" are still stinking and can be smelled by all. Even in a court of law the prosecution first must establish a motive before following up with supporting evidence. All parties involved are motivated by something. The jury (general public) will make it's determination by either investing in or totally rejecting the product. Without verified and explainable evidence it will be hard to convince the public that Savage Arms is willingly and intentionally selling an unsafe product to the public. Fair and balanced........you decide ;D
Doug
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Post by KerryB on Jun 21, 2009 14:06:38 GMT -5
Don't we all know that there were "sour grapes" left behind when Savage Arms and Toby Bridges parted ways? It was AFTER this separation that Toby's Savage 10ML blew up in his face (with no injury). That fact does taint things but doesn't automatically discount the validity of the catastrophic event. And notice that Knight rifles were being endorsed until they announce that they are going belly-up. Now there is a web page being devoted to pointing out how terrible the last three Knight designs were! I bet that informative article makes buyers of those three models feel all warm and fuzzy. Why didn't he warn us all about those problematic models before Knight went under? I am seeing a pattern and it reminds me of a dog who wags his tail while you are petting him and then bites you when you stop! ;D All of this is just me thinking out loud and just my opinion only............... I happen to love all of my Savages as well as all of my Knights. Guess i'm just easy to please! ;D
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Post by edge on Jun 21, 2009 15:31:03 GMT -5
Now since there seems to be some "piling on", I will point out that the article is NOT about his blow up but about another rifle where the shooter was indeed injured!
Another person on this board pointed out that he also saw a blown up rifle that looked similar to Toby's...about 9 months ago.
So, "sour grapes" or not, we are dealing with rifles...and sometimes rifles blow up! I guess that you can try to find a reason that the injured shooters rifle blew up, but I doubt that it was Toby's fault!
edge.
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Post by dougedwards on Jun 21, 2009 16:52:32 GMT -5
Now since there seems to be some "piling on", I will point out that the article is NOT about his blow up but about another rifle where the shooter was indeed injured! Another person on this board pointed out that he also saw a blown up rifle that looked similar to Toby's...about 9 months ago. So, "sour grapes" or not, we are dealing with rifles...and sometimes rifles blow up! I guess that you can try to find a reason that the injured shooters rifle blew up, but I doubt that it was Toby's fault! edge. I haven't seen a dispute over the fact that anyone's rifle "blew up". The question is focused on cause and motive. In the very beginning of the article Toby mentions HIS mishap with the Savage muzzleloader and then again mentions it near the end of the article. He also insinuates that Savage possibly "paid off" one unfortunate shooter by saying that " Apparently the shooter and Savage came to some monetary agreement since I never heard from him again". Is that not pure speculation? Does not comments like this cause someone to question the motive of the accuser? I have no clue as to whether someone's rifle blew up or to the reason behind it, but in my opinion the tone of this article just as the one published concerning his previous blow up could surely cause the reader to scrutinze and question the motive of the accuser. Again, the fact that a rifle of any make can blow up is not in question. Toby is claiming to not only know the cause of the mishaps (and has not even inspected the rifles other than his own) but also insinuates that Savage continues to knowingly produce an unsafe product in spite of the evidence presented. OK......present the evidence in detail and allow the shooting public to decide whether they will risk pulling the trigger on another Savage 10ML. And try not to end the explaination with " perhaps it will take a fatality before the company makes the rifle right? Doug
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Post by KerryB on Jun 21, 2009 17:12:53 GMT -5
Doug, valid points........nicely stated.........
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Post by edge on Jun 21, 2009 19:12:47 GMT -5
SNIP He also insinuates that Savage possibly "paid off" one unfortunate shooter by saying that " Apparently the shooter and Savage came to some monetary agreement since I never heard from him again". Is that not pure speculation? Does not comments like this cause someone to question the motive of the accuser? SNIP Do YOU have some inside information to dispute this! OR, as I strongly suspect, IS THIS SPECULATION ON YOUR PART! A vast majority of product liability claims ARE settled out of court, so IMO yours is probably more speculation than Toby's! Now come on Doug write Savage and ask for their reply....I bet they won't tell you. If they don't will you SPECULATE that they are liars, or just that they keep that stuff quiet like all other business? edge.
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Post by ozark on Jun 21, 2009 19:21:02 GMT -5
My views are based on trust in the Savage arms company. I am satisfied that if there was a possible design flaw they would quickly remedy it. The company simply cannot afford to put dangerous ill designed rifles in the hands of their customers. They are certainly aware of blow ups when they occur and I am sure they carefully examine everything to insure that the compsny is not at fault. If proof could be found that Savage was selling unsafe rifles then they would be in a real bind. I have no proof that it was shooter neglect or error that caused the few bulged barrels and the blowups. But I believe that Savage is providing a strong and safe rifle if used according to their instructions. Savage has a strong motive to build safe reliable rifles and I trust them to do just that.
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Post by edge on Jun 21, 2009 19:32:09 GMT -5
Does the same hold true for car companies?
Ford sold cars for years that had gas tanks that could and DID explode in certain situations!
Did they recall them, no! It was cheaper to pay off the next of kin!
If folks have facts, then let it be known, if not then perhaps we should let this die AGAIN for the umpteenth time!
edge.
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Post by bengal on Jun 21, 2009 20:10:04 GMT -5
I like my Savage MLII more than my Encore . I trust Savage products. After reviewing Mr.Bridges article & pictures on this mishap.I find it hard to believe, no one was injured in this mishap.I also find it hard to believe his idea that if gases were leaking around the plug it would blow that barrel & Stock apart like it did.I really believe if it was leaking around the plug.The hot gases would be forced back into the receiver into someone face.Thats why Savage has a pressure hole on the side of the receiver ring for that purpose.I believe and trust Savage Company that they extensively tested these ML rifles before placing them on the market.Further more those pictures of that blown rifle look like an obstruction was in the barrel before firing it.
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Post by grouse on Jun 21, 2009 20:10:17 GMT -5
I guess that you can try to find a reason that the injured shooters rifle blew up, but I doubt that it was Toby's fault! Edge, I'm a little surprised at your reaction on this subject. Toby's Blown ML is old news. The new blown ML is new... news. When Toby blew his up if it wasnt for Randy and Rifleman and the members of this board Savage Muzzleloaders might not even be around right now. It was this very board that helped protect the Savage Muzzleloader and bring the facts to the table. Just my 1 cent worth.
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Post by ozark on Jun 21, 2009 20:16:12 GMT -5
There are facts involved here. They are just not known. I don't feel threatened by the information provided and see no possible gain by sweeping it under the rug. The facts on Ford finally did surface because the public would not accept forgetting about it. I am probably to new at the board to know what ill feelings were caused by this subject earlier. If the rifle is safe or unsafe it is very important to the people using it to know. IMO it is safe but that is only an opinion.
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Post by edge on Jun 21, 2009 20:16:36 GMT -5
Edge, I'm a little surprised at your reaction on this subject. SNIP Please elaborate, what exactly do you mean? edge.
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Post by edge on Jun 21, 2009 20:26:34 GMT -5
There are facts involved here. They are just not known. I don't feel threatened by the information provided and see no possible gain by sweeping it under the rug. SNIP ozark, are you speaking about us here on Dougs, or are you referring to Savage ( as far as sweeping it under the rug )? IMO, we have not swept it under the rug here. If on the other hand you mean Savage, then I am incredulous that you would say that! Manufacturers routinely "sweep" these lawsuits under the rug! That is the main reason that they settle out of court. IMO, the Savage rifle is safe when used properly, and I don't think that I have ever said anything else. But I did design mine with a thicker barrel and without the external threads edge.
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Post by grouse on Jun 21, 2009 21:05:59 GMT -5
Edge, I'm a little surprised at your reaction on this subject. SNIP Please elaborate, what exactly do you mean? edge. Your entitled to your opinion right or wrong. It just seems like you are supporting Toby and not Savage. That is what i'm surprised of right or wrong.
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Post by ozark on Jun 21, 2009 21:06:18 GMT -5
Although Savage would settle out of court for financial reasons and sweep things under the rug temporarily. But I believe if there was a design flaw that they knew about it would be given a priority in the modification arena. edge since you designed yours with a thicker barrel and without the external threads I am led to believe that your confidence in the Savage design was less than 100 percent. Or perhaps you wanted 110 percent heavy on the side of safety. I will hush now because I have already said a lot more than I know. Ozark
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Post by dougedwards on Jun 21, 2009 22:14:36 GMT -5
Do YOU have some inside information to dispute this! OR, as I strongly suspect, IS THIS SPECULATION ON YOUR PART! Dispute what? That the injured party actually filed a product liability suit against Savage Arms? I have no knowledge of this since Toby himself doesn't claim to have knowledge of it. It is Toby who assumes that the reason that the man had no further contact with him is that Savage must have made monetary settlement with the man. I make no assumptions or speculations concerning this event since I don't know if it in fact, occurred at all. I do assume that Toby never heard back from the injured man. That's it! It is Toby who speculates as to the reason. Now here comes MY speculation. Since the whole tone of this article hints that Savage Arms has not a concern for the welfare of their customers but only for their own profits, I speculate that Toby is seeking to discredit Savage by insinuating that Savage must have paid the guy off since the guy never contacted Toby again. And that Savage doesn't mind if a guy here and there gets injured by using their product as long as they can continue to sell their muzzleloaders at a profit. I also speculate that Toby's motive here is revenge. I have no dog in this fight but I do know a little about human nature. You can call it pure speculation if you like. Those that read both of Toby's reports of the catastrophic explosions of the rifles in question can make their own judgments. Now that isn't a bad suggestion. You evidently are speculating that Savage Arms will not comment on the event because of litigation and you may be right about that. I will call Joe Degrande to discover his reaction to the question. Either way I have never heard Joe or Savage Arms make any derogatory comments concerning Toby Bridges and I don't expect to hear any but we will see. Will report back soon. Doug
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Post by mike3132 on Jun 21, 2009 22:34:41 GMT -5
I remember the first incident a little different than some and have my own opinion of what happened but my opinion is also influenced by information sent to me by the gun's designer in an email. I wont post his email because it was told to me in confidence but if you could read it a lot of pieces of the puzzle fall into place.
Now that being said I have total confidence in this gun or I flat wouldn't own or shoot it, period. Ive personally shot a ML II stainless barreled gun that was accidentally double loaded at the range by the owner. He was having accuracy problems and ask me to shoot a couple rounds. He had loaded the gun by accident with 90 grains of N110 or a combo of 45 grn of N110 and 45 grn of 4759 and seated a 250 SST. I was shooting off a Benchmaster rest over the chrony. At the shot the gun jumped up about a foot off the rest and I thought "what the hell"? The chrony showed 2850. We walked to the target and the hole was bore size or .50. The bullet had drilled the sabot and the sabot flew all the way to the 100 yard target. The next day he called me and said he found a loose spot in the barrel 2" above the powder charge. The barrel was wrung. He called Joe and Savage replaced the barrel at no charge even though it was shooter error.
I highly suggest those that feel this gun is unsafe either to buy a PacNor barrel and change the breech plug or sell it. Mike
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