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Post by bigmoose on Jun 27, 2009 6:15:20 GMT -5
Once again to all'
Rick threats his Breech Plugs the lenght of the plug, think he does that for practice.
In Henry Ball orginal design the plug was thrested all the way, Savage changed that.
Do I think abour that when shooting.....NO, I just have a good time banging away, I have two great shooting right, that work on auto-pilot. Helps and old man feels good.
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Post by dougedwards on Jun 27, 2009 7:56:37 GMT -5
Just to clarify........Savage has amazed me with their "over and beyond" approach to customer service. Originally I was frustrated with my muzzleloader and shipped it to Savage for inspection. Joe actually sent the gun back to me with their scope attached that had put three XTPs in a 1" circle. He only asked for me to ship the scope back to him which I did after I discovered that my problem wasn't with the gun but my scope wouldn't hold zero. Savage also replaced a bulged barrel after I had double loaded it and did so at no charge!
However in my mind this isn't about customer service....it is about integrity. Will Savage respond with some sort of answer that relates to the safety aspect of their product or will they decide to ignore the request for information concerning the safety of the product only because the name of Toby Bridges was mentioned as the source of the information in question?
Also Rick Bibby and Henry Ball aren't the only two makers of breech plugs. Show me any other breech plug on the face of the earth that is only partially threaded. I am not saying that they don't exist. But it would be nice to have a little explanation concerning the gas cutting issue as it relates to the design of the Savage breech plug.
As I have said, I have no dog in this fight. I only have two Savage muzzleloaders. I don't know and have never spoken to Toby Bridges and my suspicion of his motives is only speculation based on the time line of facts and the attacking tone of his reports concerning the blow up issue. He may be spot on correct about the danger of the alleged weakness of the plug but it would be impossible for us laymen to determine truth from gross exaggeration unless Toby can more fully explain his concerns. There is an old adage that says "silence screams the loudest" and for Savage to remain silent on this issue would tell me that their fear of legal reprisal is greater than their desire to assure their customers of the safety, strength and stability of their product.
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lc
Forkhorn
Posts: 72
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Post by lc on Jun 27, 2009 8:37:22 GMT -5
rossman 40 Not the same 10ml. Canadian one had a camo tupperware stock & it faired better than the laminate . RBinAR With all the gas cutting on the BP pictured, isn't the inside of the barrel also eroding?
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Post by bigmoose on Jun 27, 2009 8:51:03 GMT -5
Boarhog,
I trust your doctor knows Nucleat Stress Tests are only about 80% right. I know a gent who had one, it showed he went 115% over his maximum with no stress on his heart. As a matter of fact, Medicare refused to pay for the test, saying thr results proved there was no need for the test, billed him $2000 Three months after he had a Cardiac Catheterization, that showed a 98% blockage in his LAD {known as the Widowmaker} in the recovery room the doctor, a nationally known cardiologist, excellent gent, said," I dont know why your still alive" proof the stress test is a good indictor, but not the last word.
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Post by rossman40 on Jun 27, 2009 9:04:08 GMT -5
LC, the photos in TBs article are of his "incident" in 2004.
IIRC the reason for the snout on the Savage breechplug was so that the threads could be cut with a standard tap during the manufacturing process. No reason to use a finishing tap or lathe cut it.
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Post by boarhog on Jun 27, 2009 11:33:17 GMT -5
Bigmoose, Wish me luck. I'm not having any heart symptoms. Was referred to heart Dr because the CT scan I had showed calcified heart arteries. The heart Dr decided to do the Nuclear Stress Test, even though he said anyone as fat, ugly, diabetic, high blood pressure, bad diet, on and on as I am, will most likely have calcified heart arteries! I'm not on medicare yet. 2 more years. If I live that long!
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Post by bigmoose on Jun 27, 2009 12:48:51 GMT -5
boarhog, My very best wishes to you, that good news that you don't have any pressure in your throat or chest. Again Good Luck
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Post by edge on Jun 27, 2009 15:08:26 GMT -5
SNIP As a matter of fact, Medicare refused to pay for the test, saying thr results proved there was no need for the test, billed him $2000 SNIP. Ahh....the Government Plan that everyone is so exited about...soon to be the ONLY game in town if the Democrats have anything to say about it edge.
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Post by bigmoose on Jun 27, 2009 15:28:08 GMT -5
Edge,
Medicare is getting tougher and tougher on doctor fee's. A number of the better doctor's in this area, will no longer except medicare. Soon a cleck will deside if you need treament
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jun 27, 2009 16:19:08 GMT -5
Wow, it's easy to miss a lot in one week. Reading all this stuff makes ones head spin.
There is no way I could speculate design flaws, metalurgy (can't even spell it) and such things. An engineer I am not.
However, I will speculate that muzzleloaders probably offer the largest margin of shooter/loader error of any gun. With a cartridge rifle (if you are not a reloader), basic obstructions will probably cause the majority of problems. With a muzzleloader....where does one begin to look for answers AFTER the gun blows up?
1) Was the bullet seated right? 2) Was the correct powder/amount used? 3) Was it double loaded? 4) Was the barrel already bulged?
These questions are just a few high points as there could be other questions.
The way I see it is that if a gun blows...or even bulges...the answers to the above questions can't even be found. The position of the load can never be known and all the load components are gone. How could a previously bulged barrel be proved?
With that said, I lean HIGHLY towards a shooter/loader error. It goes without saying that RB has documented countless shots/scenarios in an attempt to fail a gun. And he's right about speculation without facts.
Trying to blow up a gun with all the speculative theories seems the best way to prove or disprove them...and RB has even done that.
Who knows what happened? I don't and guess that the person who fired the gun can't say for sure either....cause a bunch of "evidence" is burnt up, altered by the event or somewhere down range...or a combination of all the above.
I will go with the "evidence" of non-failure by the un-biased members, and their testing...like RB's...as my evidence of confidence. I'll use witness marks and not shoot out my ramrod. I will use every precaution to weight powder properly. I won't dump unused powder vials back into the container. When I patch, I'll be aware of the "feel" the tight patch has all the way down the barrel. If trying a new powder or duplex I will read and re-read the starting recommendations...and I will cross reference it with a PM to RB or other load data and be sure. I will inspect my plug and vent every time I disassemble and look for "things" I'll use witness marks (yes, I said that one again)
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Post by rossman40 on Jun 27, 2009 17:36:39 GMT -5
Not everybody was here back in 2004 when the "Toby incident" unfolded on this board. There are things that made it rival a soap opera and I will not go into it. By Toby's own admission he was shooting 48grs of 5744 and upped the charge to 49grs when the incident occurred.
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Post by bigmoose on Jun 27, 2009 18:37:30 GMT -5
I was shooting 46-47grs 5744, Joe Degrande asked me to drop back to 44grs. This is long before I know of Rick in 2001 Maybe in cooler weather that would be alright. But that was before Savage wrote about shooting in 90+ degree weather, I like to think, I helped to get them to add that to their load info.
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Post by grouse on Jun 29, 2009 21:25:08 GMT -5
dougedwards, Any response? Did you try calling back?
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Post by Dave W on Jun 30, 2009 4:28:34 GMT -5
Savage is closed for two weeks.
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Post by KerryB on Jun 30, 2009 8:00:59 GMT -5
Oh no! The dreaded and much debated vacation shut-down! ;D
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Post by dougedwards on Jun 30, 2009 16:59:04 GMT -5
I have been out of town working but I guess there is no need to call now. However I will keep up with this until I get some sort of reply.
Doug
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Post by boarhog on Jun 30, 2009 17:53:01 GMT -5
I decided to post this here since we touched on it a couple of days ago.
I got my report from the Nuclear Stress Test today. Dr said my heart is perfectly normal. No blockages in any part. He was surprised considering what he saw waddling into his office the first visit. Now we just hope the tests are accurate, and that they can do something about UGLY!
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Post by dougedwards on Jun 30, 2009 19:44:12 GMT -5
That is just wonderful news boarhog! Don't worry about the ugly part. I have been dealing with that all of my life but by God's grace I am still kicking around. I pray that you have many many more exciting and invigorating hunting seasons ahead of you. (yes I know it's sad when I think of my life in terms of how many hunting seasons I have left) Doug
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Post by grouse on Jun 30, 2009 20:05:46 GMT -5
I decided to post this here since we touched on it a couple of days ago. I got my report from the Nuclear Stress Test today. Dr said my heart is perfectly normal. No blockages in any part. He was surprised considering what he saw waddling into his office the first visit. Now we just hope the tests are accurate, and that they can do something about UGLY! That's good news.
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Post by KerryB on Jun 30, 2009 21:24:50 GMT -5
Boarhog, That is great news!!!!!!!!!!! Glad you'll be with us a lot longer.
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Post by grouse on Jul 9, 2009 15:53:01 GMT -5
I notice this subject showing up on other boards now. RW used to speak for Savage. Is he off the payroll now or just doesnt care???
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Post by smokeeter on Jul 9, 2009 16:13:39 GMT -5
Savage was sloooooow to learn.
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Post by grouse on Jul 23, 2009 19:16:02 GMT -5
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Post by ozark on Jul 23, 2009 20:34:20 GMT -5
My thinking after reading all I can find about the subject is this: The threadless portion of the breech plug does leave a space that gases could enter in more volumn than if the BP was fully threaded. This means that any gases permitted to pass would be larger in volumn and thereby cut deeper marks in the breech plug nose. Obviously with deeper gas cuts and a larger space for gases to exert their presssure would be a unnecessary pressure in a useless and possible dangerous place. I would suggest to my friends here that they get a fully threaded BP as an inexpensive precaution. Savage can't hardly go to full threads now without admitting that it might be a problem causer. If I were the head of savage I would send all owners a fully threaded BP as a customer service explaining that the act is not one designed to overcome a dangerous situation but to provide our customers with one more reason to have faith in our product since some individuals have been attempting to destroy customer trust. It would cost a little but they don't need shooters using their rifles with any doubts about safety. After all. They are selling millions of center fire rifles too. I do have a dog in this fight. My friends uses this rifle even though I can't. Ozark
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Post by rjhans53 on Jul 23, 2009 20:57:07 GMT -5
Ozark the only problem with that is how many savages are out there that have been sold or whatever and getting to them all with out a recall would be really a big challenge.
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Post by DBinNY on Jul 23, 2009 21:17:38 GMT -5
Those grapes are pretty sour. I guess it just depends upon who's payroll he's on at the time.
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Post by rossman40 on Jul 24, 2009 1:15:22 GMT -5
He kinda backed off it for a while. Now that his website sponsors have dwindled maybe he thinks he can get some hush money.
I also see that he has picked up on us using Harvester black crush rib sabots with .458 bullets.
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Post by paulslund on Jul 24, 2009 8:05:36 GMT -5
Ozark, is the barrel threaded past where the BP threadding normally stops? I thought the barrel was only threaded to the point where there is threadding on the BP, and then the barrel and non-threaded BP portions where fairly tight (and both smooth). I think I saw this in a diagram, but I can't think of where right now.
So, I guess my question is, could a fully threaded BP even fit in a stock 10MLII?
Thanks, Paul.
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Post by doegirl on Jul 24, 2009 11:44:56 GMT -5
I wonder if the Canadian incident posted by LC and the one mentioned by TB is the same one? Regardless it is proof that a Savage 10ML can blow. Of course that is true with any firearm. The big question is the circumstances/conditions which face it, unless it happens under laboratory conditions we may never have the exact reason for every incident. It could range from the one in 10,000 bad barrel blank that got by QC, deterioration of powder (5744 is a double base powder contain 20% nitro glycerin, bad things could happen) and of ever present chance/probability of human error. Then there is the alignment of the planets and the feng shui of the range. And of course a combination of any of the above. We have the blow-ups and the un-explained bulges, are they related? Again it is a warning that safety and maintenance procedures must be followed which again is required for every firearm. I think Savage is keeping mum for a reason. Number one rule is do not give ammo to lawyers so if any statement is given it will be carefully worded. I'm surprised it hasn't came up over on modermmuzzleloader.com or savageshooters.com. If it did come up on savageshooters.com the moderator there would probly delete it. I commend RB with his research and he deserves a big attaboy from all 10ML shooters. It did come up on SavageShooters.com and it did get deleted. It would be great to hear a little more feedback on Savage's side. If it's user error (as I suspect), then simply say it was. There seems to be a mindset that these rifles are indestructable and people have taken great liberty with that notion. Now, if these guns are going kaboom with factory recommended loads, different story...
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Post by rossman40 on Jul 24, 2009 13:31:49 GMT -5
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