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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2015 10:21:34 GMT -5
Edge you keep referring to this but don't you agree that if the rear shoulder was removed that the threads would leak like crazy? Therefor rear seal? Just curious not banter
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Post by edge on Mar 9, 2015 10:36:09 GMT -5
Edge you keep referring to this but don't you agree that if the rear shoulder was removed that the threads would leak like crazy? Therefor rear seal? Just curious not banter OK, if you don't tighten a bolt what good is it, you have to stress the threads at some point! A bolt "generally" has a head so that area gets stressed. When you over stress a bolt, the head shears off and the threads are basically loose. I do not see any real mechanical advantage to headspacing either way. The rear headspace is certainly easier to manufacture, does it reduce gasses anywhere? Almost by definition the rear threads are in tension ( pre stressed ) and the threads at the snout end are not locked and virtually loose. edge. PS the Savage style is the opposite, with the snout end threads are stressed and the rear threads are loose.
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Post by rambler on Mar 9, 2015 10:57:39 GMT -5
Is this the surface that is being called the "shoulder"?
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Post by speedrackin on Mar 9, 2015 11:02:08 GMT -5
Just for the record , wasn't complaining at all was just pointing out it looked similar to HIS , funny thing when somethin works well everyone is always tryin to make it work better for there purpose . its a good lookin plu , good luck with your project .
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Post by edge on Mar 9, 2015 11:07:17 GMT -5
Is this the surface that is being called the "shoulder"? That is certainly what I consider the shoulder, and your picture makes my point. Gasses and carbon are clearly on the other end "the snout" and adjacent threads. If the shoulder were the seal then that is wear you would see carbon buildup. The snout prior to the threads forms sort of a labyrinth seal. Some BP's do not have that snout and just have threads so that the threads are the only/main seal. IMO, edge. ( modified answer by edge at Reply #158 )
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Post by Dave W on Mar 9, 2015 12:15:44 GMT -5
Luke, A lot of metal chips have been made since that 1st e-mail last summer. Don't know where the initial design from Luke came from...have an idea that the barrel blow-up may have been part of his motivation. The Savage plug is a good design by the late Henry Ball for Henry's rifles. Savage, in their desire to cut manufacturing costs, removed the threads from the last half inch of the plug. No problem for the Savage set-up but for those who wanted to push the speed and pressure envelope some, caused as Hillbill noted, a chamber that let gas flow back with gas cutting when the tiny sealing shoulders failed. This plug is Luke's design but others were involved in the final build. Hillbill, 12droptine and of course Earnhardt with his comprehensive testing. We looked at this design from an engineer perspective and realized that the small diameter actually made the plug have less "bolt thrust" since the surface area is proportional to the peak pressure in the formula. Luke insisted that the plug should extend out to or past the recoil lug. Threaded bolt strength standards call for at least 1 diameter thread length and lukes threaded length is about 2 1/4 diameters. Overkill yes but safety was always foremost. I have to say that I learned much from prototyping this plug. The main thing learned was just how tight one needs for the primer to fit into the primer pocket. Big Plus 1 on 12droptines post on how to open and polish the primer pocket, you would do well follow Russell's instructions. I was amazed at how little leakage of the primer caused erratic ignition. Lesson learned. IMO and experience you should use anti-seize even though it is messy on the plug threads. Teflon tape will seal but doesn't provide the lubrication to prevent the plug from sticking. This little plug is easier to install into a barrel and very little metal is removed making the breech stronger. We made a recessed version of this plug and had less than steller results.....Earnhardt has been instrumental in testing the Arrowhead plug and his experience, especially in opening the PFC is spot on. Proud to have been a part of developing Luke's plug and believe it is a good option for some smokeless builds. Would really liked to have been in Iowa for the destructive testing... Innovation and improvements have been a hallmark for most of us on Dougs board and this is no different. More to come! Best, Mike Could you give some details as to what was tried with the recessed version?
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Mar 9, 2015 12:21:02 GMT -5
Not too rain on anyone's parade . But plug for plug it looks a lot like an HIS with a 209 . Good job should work ok for the guys that favor the simplicity of 209s no rain....no parade It's another version of a mousetrap. We're all part of the mousetrap evoloution....I am happy for all the progress myself. Drop
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2015 12:45:14 GMT -5
I tried a recessed bushing, .6" flame channel, with 90 grains of 3031 and a 310 APB. Stock PFC. The primers didn't fair well. With 209 primers, a short flame channel is not necessary.
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Post by Dave W on Mar 9, 2015 12:57:16 GMT -5
I tried a recessed bushing, .6" flame channel, with 90 grains of 3031 and a 310 APB. Stock PFC. The primers didn't fair well. With 209 primers, a short flame channel is not necessary. Thanks, .040 bushing?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2015 13:20:00 GMT -5
Yes. .040" bushing
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Post by Dave W on Mar 9, 2015 13:37:51 GMT -5
Little history lesson for the uninformed. SMI rear shouldered 209 plugs and guns have been part of this board for many years, long before Jeff Hankins was part of this board.
Necessity is the mother of invention. The concept has been around for years, Luke finally brought it to the masses in a bolt gun form.
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Post by rangeball on Mar 9, 2015 13:50:22 GMT -5
Little history lesson for the uninformed. SMI rear shouldered 209 plugs and guns have been part of this board for many years, long before Jeff Hankins was part of this board. Necessity is the mother of invention. The concept has been around for years, Luke finally brought it to the masses in a bolt gun form. +1. I've had an SMI plug with a rear shoulder for over 8 years now. I know they go back way longer than that.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2015 14:18:52 GMT -5
Secondly...and this one is a big one for me. The plugs have a primer pocket that is machined very tight, that you have to open up to your primer type. You can order them with a standard primer fit, but trust me...tight is gooood. Originally there were 3 plugs made with different tightness in the primer pocket. One had a very loose primer pocket, which led to very poor ignition. Aireboreike shot this one. One had an average tightness primer pocket with have consistent ignition with average as expected velocities. Luke had this plug. And the last plug had a very tight primer pocket. Looks like a winner to me....One question.... It looks like the tightness of the primer pocket makes a big difference in the performance of the plug.... Any leakage and you' re In a jam...correct? Zen
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Mar 9, 2015 14:49:56 GMT -5
Panhandle I would think that any primer leakage would affect performance in any breech plug from here on out I intend to fit each primer pocket to the brand of primers that I'm going to use in all of my guns it's well worth the effort
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2015 15:06:03 GMT -5
Panhandle I would think that any primer leakage would affect performance in any breech plug from here on out I intend to fit each primer pocket to the brand of primers that I'm going to use in all of my guns it's well worth the effort You're right....Looks like primer leakage in any open primer 209 plug design is the weak link... No leakage = consistent ignition... Big advantange in this new plug is that it is potentially stronger and the design leads to less gas cutting with the hot loads.... I once accidently shot a 140gn H4198 / 275 BE 3725 fps load out of my Rem-Pac with a Savage plug....No damage but I wouldn't want to do it again. Zen
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Post by fishhawk on Mar 9, 2015 15:08:34 GMT -5
If I cut a section of the "sealing/headspacing" shoulder away exposing the end of the threads, would it not leak out this cut? The threads of the barrel and plug do not fill the gaps the clearance left whether the plug is tight or not. The more threads and the closer the tolerance would reduce the flow of pressure and hot gasses the further up the plug you go (pressure vs time). But with the rear shoulder, are you not stopping or at least reducing the ability of the pressure and gasses to escape by pressurizing the air in the clearance of the threads as the pressure winds its way up the threads? All breechplugs I know of have threads, a shoulder, and a primer/module pocket, they all "look a lot like" each other. Luke are you putting bushing pockets with a threaded retaining ring in the new plug? If your copying what Josh and I came up with to replace ventliners, we are mad as hell! Jeff already pulled this, don't you try! Oh wait, I didn't invent bushings, breechplugs, or retaining screws, as Rosanne Rosannadana said,.. never mind....
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Post by rambler on Mar 9, 2015 15:14:56 GMT -5
If I cut a section of the "sealing/headspacing" shoulder away exposing the end of the threads, would it not leak out this cut? The threads of the barrel and plug do not fill the gaps the clearance left whether the plug is tight or not. The more threads and the closer the tolerance would reduce the flow of pressure and hot gasses the further up the plug you go (pressure vs time). But with the rear shoulder, are you not stopping or at least reducing the ability of the pressure and gasses to escape by pressurizing the air in the clearance of the threads as the pressure winds its way up the threads? All breechplugs I know of have threads, a shoulder, and a primer/module pocket, they all "look a lot like" each other. Luke are you putting bushing pockets with a threaded retaining ring in the new plug? If your copying what Josh and I came up with to replace ventliners, we are mad as hell! Jeff already pulled this, don't you try! Oh wait, I didn't invent bushings, breechplugs, or retaining screws, as Rosanne Rosannadana said,.. never mind....
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Post by rangeball on Mar 9, 2015 15:25:05 GMT -5
If I cut a section of the "sealing/headspacing" shoulder away exposing the end of the threads, would it not leak out this cut? The threads of the barrel and plug do not fill the gaps the clearance left whether the plug is tight or not. The more threads and the closer the tolerance would reduce the flow of pressure and hot gasses the further up the plug you go (pressure vs time). But with the rear shoulder, are you not stopping or at least reducing the ability of the pressure and gasses to escape by pressurizing the air in the clearance of the threads as the pressure winds its way up the threads? This is exactly what I was wondering. It would seem if a plug seals on the front, and you get gas cutting, from that point pressure is free to leak back towards the primer with nothing to stop it. However if it seals on the rear like this and other plugs, the air in the threads would resist against the pressure trying to escape towards the primer, effectively stopping it, right? Makes sense in my head, but what do I know.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2015 15:35:49 GMT -5
Whats all the fuss guys? Its new, it works better than what we have been using, (I know because Im using one) no leaks, no gas cutting, less fitting on the barrel, less maintenance, same end result......... Im happy lets go play in the yard
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Post by rangeball on Mar 9, 2015 15:54:11 GMT -5
Whats all the fuss guys? Its new, it works better than what we have been using, (I know because Im using one) no leaks, no gas cutting, less fitting on the barrel, less maintenance, same end result......... Im happy lets go play in the yard Well, to me the fuss is I can't retrofit it to my rempac and I don't have the funds for a new barrel Other than that it's all good
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Post by gar on Mar 9, 2015 16:20:55 GMT -5
I agree Bill; and I think the smaller dia. is a good idea. Whether it seals here or there doesn't matter one lick if it works the way Luke says it does, and I have no doubt that it is an improvement we will find beneficial for future builds cause we all know we are all going to build more.
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Post by rambler on Mar 9, 2015 16:22:43 GMT -5
I agree Bill; and I think the smaller dia. is a good idea. Whether it seals here or there doesn't matter one lick if it works the way Luke says it does, and I have no doubt that it is an improvement we will find beneficial for future builds cause we all know we are all going to build more. Ditto x2
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Post by edge on Mar 9, 2015 16:31:23 GMT -5
If I cut a section of the "sealing/headspacing" shoulder away exposing the end of the threads, would it not leak out this cut? The threads of the barrel and plug do not fill the gaps the clearance left whether the plug is tight or not. SNIP. If it is made properly the answer is no or very little! IMO, most leaks around the BP are caused by the ID of the barrel not machined correctly. As I wrote earlier it is easier to machine this design than the design that headspaces off of the snout, but the sealing mechanism is virtually identical. edge. ( modified answer by edge at Reply #158 )
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Mar 9, 2015 16:50:26 GMT -5
Rangeball Yes you can have it retro-fitted to your barrel. I did. You just take the barrel off and send it to a "qualified" machinist . He can then thread the muzzle end to fit the new plug... And you just swap ends with it and shoot it in the other direction...no... Wait! That idea seems somewhat flawed!!! Don't try that... In reality . I posted here Bout 6weeks ago several questions about shorter barrels.... And what one would loose by going to one. Since I was already in to this barrel for close to $550 . It was a 25" pacnor #7 taper with a 5" lug of 1.250. My machinist removed about 1.85" and fit it for the new plug. At that time I also had a muzzle brake installed.. I still have enough lug to shoot safely. And I couldn't be more happy with the out come of the whole ordeal. I mad several phone call's to the "Guru's" and was told not to worry about that barrel length (23 1/4"). Even out to 500yds as far as accuracy would go. Just use a fast burning powder. But you have to ask yourself the question......is the cash better spent towards a new barrel...or on the existing one?...until I had this don't to the gun ...I never really "fell in love" with it. But thanks to Luke...AirborneIke...Earnhardt...HillBill It's all good now Drop
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2015 20:19:47 GMT -5
Don't lose any sleep over the primer pocket tightness. All primers, 209 or LRM, need to be sealed, otherwise ignition capability is compromised. The old thought that a bolt needs to close with one finger out of convenience needs to be thrown out the window. Keep the primers snug in the pocket. and don't open up the pocket anymore with a .242" bit to aid in easy primer insertion.
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Post by hankinsrfls on Mar 9, 2015 20:29:09 GMT -5
I just read the days worth of post and I really can't believe some of you guys can get so bent out of shape because of a little comparison issues. Yes that plug looks like mine, yes my plug looks like the SMI plug, no I wasn't the first one to come up with a rear sealing plug, this plug will more than likely not be the last plug to be designed this way, and I am sure SMI didn't design the first one. The plug Luke has made seals well, or should I say great. Its is the plug to use from now on out if you are building a new gun on an ML action. For the existing guns that are out there, you guys will just have to keep doing what you are doing until you decide to either cut off your barrel and re-thread it for this plug or get a complete new barrel, either way the gun will still shoot good.
I agree with Fishhawk. If you removed part of the shoulder on these plugs, (Lukes, mine or SMI"s)it will leak like crazy. No matter how tight you torque the plug, or how good the machine work is, the gas will find its way around the threads and blow out the end.. The reason this type of plug seals better is because...... When you fire the rifle the barrel stretches. (yes it does) it is going to stretch at the end of the plug, when this happens on a savage style plug it opens a small gap (very small)at the sealing surface allowing gas to flow backwards. Once this happens one time, the next time it is easier and the gas gets farther until you have a wash out. On the rear sealing plug, when fired, the barrel stretches in the same place, but since the plug is sealing from the very end of the barrel and the stretch does not go that far back it will not open a gap and let the gas escape.
Fishhawk also said that I copied the idea of a tungsten bushing in my plug,, Yes I did add the tungsten bushing to my plugs, (and they are standard equipment now), because,, yes they do last for almost ever and you guys here on the board wanted me to upgrade my plug to except the bushings. So as the demand got higher I made the changes. This board helps everyone in this SML game, no one person has all the answers,
I joined this board about a year and a half ago and a lot of things have change since then.. I have been reading this board for years, but I never was real interested in joining until my friend told me to advertise my Challenge shoot on here and that got it all started. I've made a lot of friends and a few enemies, but there's always a few of those. This is the only board I am a member of, I enjoy reading and responding to post, helping out when I can and adding my 2 cents worth. Not everyone is going to have the same ideas as the next person, not every idea is going to work, but we keep trying because we love what we do.
Now can we all just calm down and be happy that someone has introduced a new plug that will help eliminate the blow by issues so greatly associated with the 209 primer system.
Jeff Hankins.
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Post by jeff on Mar 9, 2015 20:54:29 GMT -5
Well said Jeff~
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Mar 9, 2015 21:03:58 GMT -5
Well put Jeff Drop
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Post by edge on Mar 9, 2015 21:23:10 GMT -5
SNIP. I agree with Fishhawk. If you removed part of the shoulder on these plugs, (Lukes, mine or SMI"s)it will leak like crazy. No matter how tight you torque the plug, or how good the machine work is, the gas will find its way around the threads and blow out the end.SNIP Just curious, do you find lots of blowby near the "SEALING" flange? edge. ( modified answer by edge at Reply #158 )
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Post by hankinsrfls on Mar 9, 2015 21:48:19 GMT -5
SNIP. I agree with Fishhawk. If you removed part of the shoulder on these plugs, (Lukes, mine or SMI"s)it will leak like crazy. No matter how tight you torque the plug, or how good the machine work is, the gas will find its way around the threads and blow out the end.SNIP Just curious, do you find lots of blowby near the "SEALING" flange? edge. I don't find any blowby at the sealing flange. The pressure is stopped before it gets to the flange.
Take a pressure vessel of some sort. lets say a plastic straw from McDonald's. Seal one end of the straw, now lets say the straw is 6 inches long and it contains air. If you blow on the straw as hard as you can, (well not that hard because you might pop it) you will be able to force some more air into the straw, but you can not make the air in the middle hit the bottom. The first inch or two of the straw might see new air but not the entire straw. This works the same way on the plug. With a complete seal at the rear you can not push the gas all the way to the rear of the plug. You will get some gas to enter the plugs thread, therefor explaining the first few threads with some black on them but the farther back you go the cleaner the threads are. If the plug will thread in with your fingers then you have clearance in the threads, otherwise the threads would get gualded and you would not be able to remove your plug. EVER.
If you expected the threads to do the sealing in these plugs you would have to machine them with tapered threads like a pipe fitting,
Jeff Hankins.
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