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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 16:39:40 GMT -5
Very nice!! Pacnor, McGowen and Brux going to be set up to install these plugs on their prefits? I have a feeling CmC will be with his Shilens.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 17:03:56 GMT -5
I've shot around 250 rounds through the Arrowhead 209 plug. I'll add pics later...dang battery is dead on camera.. The majority of them are with loads pushing the 310 APB from 3000-3200 fps. No gas cutting anywhere on the plug or threads. There are several characteristics that the new plug has that are will really help us out a SMLers, but a couple are very important. First with the plug sealing in the rear, the gases from powder ignition have to get past 21 threads to get tot he sealing shoulder in the rear. Well...the powder gases have never even gotten to the sealing shoulder on my plug. Even with the T-Rex loads. The powder gases only come back about 1/2 the way on the plug threads, and then the threads are clean. No gasses can even get to the sealing shoulder on the Arrowhead plug, because the gasses can't get past the threads. The sealing shoulder is shiny new on the Arrowhead 209 plug my B-17 plug and in my .458 Lightweight. Secondly...and this one is a big one for me. The plugs have a primer pocket that is machined very tight, that you have to open up to your primer type. You can order them with a standard primer fit, but trust me...tight is gooood. Originally there were 3 plugs made with different tightness in the primer pocket. One had a very loose primer pocket, which led to very poor ignition. Aireboreike shot this one. One had an average tightness primer pocket with have consistent ignition with average as expected velocities. Luke had this plug. And the last plug had a very tight primer pocket, that I had to open up BY HAND with a chain saw sharpening bit. I would sand a little at a time so the primer was very snug when I finally got the bolt to close decent. I haven't used a booster yet, and I haven't had any ignition problems with even the slowest of powders (IMR4831) in cold weather. I opened up the PFC to lessen the primer bulging with the T-Rex loads. Luke has not opened his PFC up I believe, and he's been shooting the "standard" 70 grains and a 310 APB. No bulging A lot of us were using a .242" "C" drill bit to open up the primer pocket to make it easier to close the bolt with a new primer. DO NOT DO THAT ANYMORE! You want the primer pocket as snug as tolerable to aid in sealing and supporting the primer. Like Richard said in an earlier post, the old Savage plugs work great, but these plugs are really going to benefit the hot rodder or the guy who doesn't want to use a booster powder. But these plugs work great, and another part of the evolution of SMLing.
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Post by lwh723 on Mar 8, 2015 17:32:15 GMT -5
Thanks for the compliments guys. I’m pretty excited about this plug too. That being said, I’m in agreement with Richard and Earnhardt, that the Savage plug works. And every gun that has a Savage plug in it didn’t just suddenly turn into junk! As others have said, this is just carrying on the better mouse trap tradition of this board.
1) Price/Availability. $55 + bushing cost. First small batch due this week (all spoken for) after that will get another run done. So 3-4 weeks out. 2) Retrofitting barrels: I think all of the other plugs out there are 5/8” or bigger, so it’s going to require shortening the barrel to retrofit. 3) Edge, I haven’t been able to get the breech plug out yet. Based on how it feels, I think it’s just stuck at the end. Assuming pressure got in lockring area and swelled end of plug? In any event, I’m definitely open to sending barrel out for FA. 4) Cowhunter: I’ve only beening using 70gr of H4198 with my 310APB, but Earnhardt has been using a lot of other loads. Similar flame path to Savage BP, so same primer situation 5) I, like Earnhardt, have been having no issues with ignition and single powder loads. I have been using the 0.040” tungsten bushing exclusively. 6) Linbaugh, I’m going to save the recoil lug as a souvenir 7) Right now, it’s the standard option on Brux barrels from me. Pac-Nor and McGowen on request for the moment.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 18:09:21 GMT -5
Thanks for the testing and info Luke. No damage to action that I can see? Kind of shows that the little bolt retaining screw does its job on the 700ML action Think a PTG or other lug would have held better then the factory forked?
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Post by hankinsrfls on Mar 8, 2015 19:07:38 GMT -5
Very nice looking plug and quality machine work... It should work very well... Jeff Hankins.
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Post by Richard on Mar 8, 2015 19:11:28 GMT -5
I really don't think that little tip of the screw does a whole lot to prevent the bolt from coming back. It is more to cam the bolt forward and push in the primer. I sure would not want to depend on it for bolt thrust. It is the breech plug with the small vent hole which restricts the bolt from coming back. That primer is only brass so it does not take too much pressure to blow it. IMHO. Richard
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Post by sparkman on Mar 8, 2015 19:16:52 GMT -5
Thanks Brother ( thinking Encore).!!
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Mar 8, 2015 19:18:29 GMT -5
I have a #7 taper PacNor that HillBill built for me Bout a year ago. From the very beginning I have had sealing issue's with it. Pulled it down and found flame-cutting...Fought with it and awhile and sent it out and had the sealing shoulder se-done. Came back and made it 6 shots before it started doing the same thing. Now please keep in mind I was shooting realitively warm but not really HOT loads. 5gn of red dot for a booster and 65 gun of H 4198 under a .60 veggie wad and a 275Gn Match Hunter. But the barrel wasn't hurt. So I bought a "savage breach plug cleaning tool and dressed up the shoulder...again. But in the meantime I heard rumors of the new plug. So I done some research and asked if I would be considered to try shortening my barrel and giving it a whirl. SINCE I had a #7 taper and a 5"lug I had enough meat to have the breech area cut off and re-machined around the new plug. As Earnhardt stated I had a "tight "primer pocket. I took a 3/16 hardwood dowel rod that was 3" long and cut some wet or dry 600grit sandpaper and made it 1/4x 1&1/2" long. Took a small piece of scotch tape and started it around the dowel. Wrapped it with the direction of rotation. Then VERY gently ran the hand drill a little bit. Re-installed the plug and checked for fit. This process was done 8 times. The idea is to keep it as tight as possible. With bolt closing correctly. This insures a good seal. Again as Earnhardt said. "No more C drill bit" . After fitting the primer pocket to a Winchester 209. I was off to the range for testing. This plug does not have to be torqued nearly as tight as my savage . I use a 1/4 drive ratchet to install it.. During all this I decided to squeaky clean the barrel...mistake....took several shots for the barrel to settle back down. But 4 outof the last 5 shots went in to a group of .434. And in 25 shots the plug was as clean and shiny as new...just a little gas residue up about 1/4of an inch on the threads. ZERO BLOW BY on the PLUG OR the PRIMER. 2 differant trips to the range....and my hands were perfectly clean...lol truly so clean I didn't even have to wash them. This plug has tested to perform WAY beyond my expectations .. I still have a Savage MLII Pacnor with A savage plug...and don't plan on changing that . And as Luke said . This plug doesn't render the Savage plug "obsolete" or "inadequate " it's been working right along. It's just as said Part of the evolution of smokeless muzzleloading. Thanks Luke for bringing this forward. And to those who have helped in the testing and development . And a Big old " Thank You " to my friend who guided me this in this direction...yeah you know who you are. Drop
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Post by muznut on Mar 8, 2015 19:21:49 GMT -5
Very nice breech plug Luke and some cool testing, I bet that 210gr load made one hell of a bang. When will those plugs be available?
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Post by hawghunter on Mar 8, 2015 19:32:03 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing and leading us into the future.
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Post by muznut on Mar 8, 2015 19:40:40 GMT -5
I see now where Luke wrote the 2nd batch will be available in three to four weeks.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 19:46:43 GMT -5
Very well done Luke....two thumbs up..
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Post by jims on Mar 8, 2015 20:44:35 GMT -5
nicely done
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a1smokepole
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Being Safe Adds More Fun When Shooting
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Post by a1smokepole on Mar 8, 2015 20:49:04 GMT -5
I would say new barrel time for the new plug.
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Post by 1coyotemaster on Mar 8, 2015 21:08:54 GMT -5
Luke do you have a price on your new BP?
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Post by 1coyotemaster on Mar 8, 2015 21:14:46 GMT -5
Luke do you have a price on your new BP? Whoops didn't see the page 2.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 21:17:50 GMT -5
When will these hit the website? That way those of us not of the "list" can have a chance at them?
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Post by airborneike on Mar 8, 2015 21:29:12 GMT -5
Luke,
A lot of metal chips have been made since that 1st e-mail last summer. Don't know where the initial design from Luke came from...have an idea that the barrel blow-up may have been part of his motivation.
The Savage plug is a good design by the late Henry Ball for Henry's rifles. Savage, in their desire to cut manufacturing costs, removed the threads from the last half inch of the plug. No problem for the Savage set-up but for those who wanted to push the speed and pressure envelope some, caused as Hillbill noted, a chamber that let gas flow back with gas cutting when the tiny sealing shoulders failed.
This plug is Luke's design but others were involved in the final build. Hillbill, 12droptine and of course Earnhardt with his comprehensive testing. We looked at this design from an engineer perspective and realized that the small diameter actually made the plug have less "bolt thrust" since the surface area is proportional to the peak pressure in the formula.
Luke insisted that the plug should extend out to or past the recoil lug. Threaded bolt strength standards call for at least 1 diameter thread length and lukes threaded length is about 2 1/4 diameters. Overkill yes but safety was always foremost.
I have to say that I learned much from prototyping this plug. The main thing learned was just how tight one needs for the primer to fit into the primer pocket. Big Plus 1 on 12droptines post on how to open and polish the primer pocket, you would do well follow Russell's instructions. I was amazed at how little leakage of the primer caused erratic ignition. Lesson learned.
IMO and experience you should use anti-seize even though it is messy on the plug threads. Teflon tape will seal but doesn't provide the lubrication to prevent the plug from sticking.
This little plug is easier to install into a barrel and very little metal is removed making the breech stronger.
We made a recessed version of this plug and had less than steller results.....Earnhardt has been instrumental in testing the Arrowhead plug and his experience, especially in opening the PFC is spot on.
Proud to have been a part of developing Luke's plug and believe it is a good option for some smokeless builds. Would really liked to have been in Iowa for the destructive testing...
Innovation and improvements have been a hallmark for most of us on Dougs board and this is no different. More to come!
Best,
Mike
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Post by fishhawk on Mar 8, 2015 21:45:10 GMT -5
CHALLENGE: Come up with a heli-coil kit for the 11/16" tapped barrels. You just may have come up with the ultimate 209 BP design. Every thing about it makes perfect sense. Congratulations! An adapter properly epoxied into the Savage pocket that has had the sealing surface cleaned with a tool like Hillbill has, should have a good chance of working. I'm sure Luke would rather sell you a new barrel. I bet he's been sitting on this idea until all his Savage plug barrels were sold. Cheap shot, couldn't help myself!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2015 4:38:36 GMT -5
the Savage plug has worked very well for years and will continue to do so. for guys doing new builds the new plug would be the way to go. will this design make the Savage plug obsolete? hardly, just a better mousetrap..
some has been said about primer pocket fit and I thought I would add my 2 cents. tight primer pockets are a good thing but there is a very fine line here. bolt retention screw platforms like the Savage and 700 ML are very easily worn in two areas. the retention screw and the bolt groove itself will wear quickly if the primer pocket is overly tight. the CF platforms have the advantage here by being able to cam the primer into the pocket.
since primers are different diameters by brand and sometimes even by lot primer pocket fit is a bit touchy. win 209s are generally the largest dia and if you fit the pocket for them and then use feds guess what? you will likely have a little leakage. My experience with ccis and federal tells me they are not completely round, the ccis being a little egg shaped and 209a having low spots.
I say this by experience (mine) and others might think otherwise. If one wants a tight primer pocket kit do like Drop said and go slowly but I would also add to this, with the retention screw guns get all the depth on the retention screw possible and that might mean getting a longer screw. I think Rossman makes them for the 700 ML and the Savage. the 700 ML is well known for very little screw engagement which wears the bolt quickly if the primer pocket is tight. you guys that have a burr on the bolt and the bolt gets hard to close know where Im coming from...
have a good week Gents!
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Post by speedrackin on Mar 9, 2015 9:16:19 GMT -5
Not too rain on anyone's parade . But plug for plug it looks a lot like an HIS with a 209 . Good job should work ok for the guys that favor the simplicity of 209s
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Post by lwh723 on Mar 9, 2015 9:23:46 GMT -5
Not too rain on anyone's parade . But plug for plug it looks a lot like an HIS with a 209 . Good job should work ok for the guys that favor the simplicity of 209s You need to get out more. Lots of rear seal plugs on the market. HIS isn't the only one.
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Post by rambler on Mar 9, 2015 9:30:45 GMT -5
Not too rain on anyone's parade . But plug for plug it looks a lot like an HIS with a 209 . Good job should work ok for the guys that favor the simplicity of 209s I do see some similarities....for one they both appear to made out of steel lol
HIS
Arrowhead Plug:
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2015 9:42:52 GMT -5
Look two more! No one but you is complaining! This will be a great plug for the sub calibers where LRMP does not work
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Post by rambler on Mar 9, 2015 9:53:41 GMT -5
Look two more! No one but you is complaining! This will be a great plug for the sub calibers where LRMP does not work On the left we have an SMI plug and on the right one that Cole made me last year. It eliminated my bulging primers. Actually this plug can probably handle more pressure than my barrel can. It's a break open with those pesky scope mount holes.
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Post by edge on Mar 9, 2015 9:53:52 GMT -5
You need to get out more. Lots of rear seal plugs on the market. HIS isn't the only one. Not to rain on anyone's parade, but none of them actually seal anywhere but the front ,either the snout or the threads or most likely a combination of the two! The two mentioned BP's "headspace" from the rear, versus "headspace" off of the snout like the Savage plug does. IIRC the Remington plug headspaces from the rear also. edge. ( modified answer, see edge Reply #158 )
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2015 9:56:31 GMT -5
If I don't tape my savage it "leaks" all the way out the back of the barrel guess I don't have a seal at all
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2015 10:02:43 GMT -5
Not too rain on anyone's parade . But plug for plug it looks a lot like an HIS with a 209 . Good job should work ok for the guys that favor the simplicity of 209s I'm shocked it took one of the groupies this long to chime in. Were you the groupie who suggested legal action should be brought against me for "copycatting" the .041" ignition vent hole?... I believe the 2 plugs pictured side by side above, were the FIRST plugs to seal in the rear. Didn't we already go over this? Groupies...please go away...
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Post by ping on Mar 9, 2015 10:10:23 GMT -5
Without groupies,,, Where would you be? Everyone has a preferred method. The rear sealing plug is simply a better design and it took this long for some one to make one for the 209.. Not that its a big deal, but it should have been done years ago...
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Post by edge on Mar 9, 2015 10:14:15 GMT -5
SNIP. The rear sealing plug is simply a better design SNIP... Please explain why it is "better"? edge. PS it does not seal in the rear, it headspaces in the rear!
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