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Post by artjr338wm on Mar 2, 2009 22:58:53 GMT -5
Harley, Let me say first off it does not surprise me at all you received a prompt reply to your email question from Leupold, I would have been quite surprised if you HAD NOT. I have emailed the Leupold CS department three times in the last 10 years, although I can not be 100% sure of the time frame, every one of my emails was replied to in less than I think 72 hours. One was a simple request to explain to me the VariX-IIs .5 MOA adjustment at 50, 100, and 200 yards. One was for questions concerning turn around time and cost for a custom reticle change for my VariX-II in 4-12x40mm. The third was for an opinion if AO on a hunting scope is all that necessary at yardages of 500 and under.
I would not under any circumstances characterize myself a fanatical Leupold fan. I simply have great loyalty for any product that serves me well, especially if that service is without fail.
That said, a 4.5-14x40mm Weaver GS sits on my glass bedded 10ML-II. The reason for this is it was the only scope I had at the time that was not in use, and I got it for $199 . And the fact that my VariX-II in 4-12x40mm sits atop my sub-MOA .338wm M700 makes me waaaay superstitious to ever take it off and use it else wear. That Weaver GS has seen 400 and counting 290-300 grain bullets at velocities from 2300-2500fps and is still going (knock on wood) strong.
FWIW I will add this. I own a New England Firearms model 920 Tracker. For those unfamiliar with it, the 920 is a break action 12 Gage 3" magnum slug gun with a fully rifled barrel. According to Dave Henderson (most likely the most knowledgeable and honest man there is when it comes to slug guns) the design of the 920 is extremely harsh on scopes. This is because the scope sits directly on top of the chamber, and not the receiver like on bolt action rifles. The exact same can be said of the T/C Encore 209x50 Magnum ML break action design.
I have Leupold 2-7x33mm VariX-IIs shotgun/muzzleloder scopes mounted on both. The VariX-II that sits on top of my Encore has with stood 2000 and counting magnum loads from a combination of 150gns of palletized Pyrodex RS (around 1700+) and (around 300) 130grn charges of 3-F 777 and is still going strong.
The VariX-II that sits on top of my 920 has with stood around 300 or so 12ga 2.75" magnum sabot slugs that have varied in weight from 365grns to 1.25oz. with zero failures.
As someone already said, all scopes fail, and I have had two different brands fail me while on slug guns prior to going to Leupold's. I own six now and and 1000s and 1000s of high recoil rounds later they all still work perfect.
I can not how ever say anything concerning my Leupold's or my one GS W&E tracking repeatability as I have never tested it beyond simple sighting in POI adjustment.
All that said some may find it contradictory that when I buy my next rifle for use as a dedicated long range hunting rifle I will most likely top it with a Zeiss Conquest with a Z800 reticle. The reason being the Conquest is according to my resurch, is the one of the best made scope designs that use a multi range reticle.
Just one mans opinions and thoughts based on over 15 years of shooting scope equiped harsh recoiling magnum rifles and MLs.
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Post by mshm99 on Mar 2, 2009 23:34:31 GMT -5
IMO, artjr338wm expressed my feelings about Leupold to a tee. I've had some other outfits try to sell me another higher priced scope,at an inflated price, rather than fix the scope that their Customer Service recommened for the application.
No crawfishing at Leupold. They have my business.
mshm
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Post by jeremylong on Mar 2, 2009 23:52:55 GMT -5
Harley - After rereading it my response was way more harsh than intended so I deleted it. The only thing I was trying to say was that the statement, "How few people are apparently buying and/or are satisfied with Leupold the past two years" did not include me. Peace
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Post by rexxer on Mar 3, 2009 7:14:42 GMT -5
Atta boy Jeremy! I didn't think Harley was trying to be as harsh as you first thought,but I know how some of us get when someones picking on our loved ones!!! Cheers!!!
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Post by dougedwards on Mar 3, 2009 7:24:46 GMT -5
For the record, Leupold is not the only rifle scope manufacturer with good customer service. Sightron asks no questions and promptly replaces when one of their scopes are defective in any way and actually Zeiss is responsive also. Bushnell and Nikon can be very lacking but Meopta and Kahles seem to be the worst. Maybe the European scope makers aren't as accustomed to the word "warranty" as we are here in the USA.
Doug
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Post by Harley on Mar 3, 2009 7:57:23 GMT -5
Thanks, JeremyLong, no hard feelings here.
Doug, add Vortex to the good guys at customer service list.
Harley
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Post by rkrobson on Mar 3, 2009 8:21:52 GMT -5
I had a Leupold 4.5x14 AO go bad 5 years ago, sent it in and Leupold said the front objective lense came loose, and they recommended going to the 30mm Long Range scope, as it has side focus(AO), and that they we're no longer making the front AO scopes, as they we're more apt to have problems with high recoil rifles. I have 4 of the Leupold Long Range scopes and have no problems on MLs and 2 300 RUMs. I now have a Zeiss Rapid Z and am very impressed, it came recommended by a guy who has over 2500 rounds through his Ultimate shooting only 4 Pyro pellets and the 300 gr SST(this is magnum recoil). FWIW a gunsmith in AZ who builds Horus's guns and shoots 1000 yd competition and tests all Horus Vision scopes tells me Nightforce is the most widely used in High Power Rifle competition, but that he has seen even them fail. Ray
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Post by Harley on Mar 3, 2009 12:19:31 GMT -5
Ray, you're making me feel like a loser even before I get my repaired front AO back from Leupold. As I previously posted, the Leupold product specialist said it "will take the pain". We'll see.
Harley
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Post by tar12 on Mar 3, 2009 12:24:21 GMT -5
Ray, you're making me feel like a loser even before I get my repaired front AO back from Leupold. As I previously posted, the Leupold product specialist said it "will take the pain". We'll see. Harley Harley, Did you ask him if he could take the pain of what you were going to do with that scope if it failed?LOL! ;D
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Post by Harley on Mar 3, 2009 13:34:07 GMT -5
Good one, Rick.
Harley
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 3, 2009 14:26:24 GMT -5
Some folks could break a 200lb anvil, ;D keep in mind if it was unbreakable it might weigh 10lbs ;D
If I was younger I'd be using a ghost ring, for shoot under 200 yards, hard to break.
Its too silly to say would I could do with an 06 M1, when I was 20
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Post by Richard on Mar 3, 2009 15:08:12 GMT -5
Harley.......do you have the name of that site that buy Unertls's? I really want to sell this one. As far as optics? This scope and my other Unertle Ultra varmint display the clearest images I have ever seen in both Nightforce, Zeiss, Swarvorski, Leupold and IOR! Bar none! Richard
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Post by Harley on Mar 3, 2009 17:21:00 GMT -5
I just received a follow-up email from Mr. Mundy of Leupold. In it he responds to my thanking him for taking an interest in my correspondence. He still has the model number wrong, but I've just sent him the correct model and suggested he test a basic blued synthetic Savage on the grounds that it would be the lightest and thus would have greatest recoil potential.
"You bet, Lloyd. They’re working on it now. All of them responded within an hour that this scope should have no issues holding up to the recoil of that rifle, nor should any other product we make. Even so, we are buying a savage 110ML and putting it through a round of scientific testing."
When he says "they're working on it, now" I think he means his research/testing people.
So, I have to ask you, hasn't my contacting Leupold been positive? If they will put a scope on a Savage and then shoot it a great number of times, checking and calibrating their scope along the way, maybe we can all learn something.
(My line is open only for "attaboy's", not death threats.)
Harley
P.S.: BigMoose, I told Mr. Mundy to listen to his voice mail.
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Post by Harley on Mar 3, 2009 17:28:49 GMT -5
Richard, I don't remember the Unertl site. Do what I did: Google "Unertl Vulture". One of the links that came up was the collect/buy/resale site.
You didn't comment before, but do you agree with me on the recoil-nullifying potential of the external springs?
Harley
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Post by fowlplay on Mar 3, 2009 17:51:51 GMT -5
Harley, I'm speaking for myself. Attaboy!
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Post by Harley on Mar 3, 2009 18:00:22 GMT -5
rkrobson, I mentioned to Mr. Mundy of Leupold the alleged superiority of the side AO adjustment over the earlier design. In response, he wrote: ======================================== "Hi Lloyd,
AO scopes and side focus scopes are tested to the same level of recoil resistance. Both should be equally tough.
I appreciate you trying to get the truth out---a lot of rumors become “fact” in a hurry on the web.
I’ll keep you posted on the testing, but I foresee no issues. The hammering those scopes take in our other recoil tests are more severe than any muzzleloader we have ever tested, but we are always willing to do more testing. It’s all about customer satisfaction and about performance. We want to be #1 in both areas." =============================================
I'll keep the Board up to date on any further correspondence.
Harley
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Post by rexxer on Mar 3, 2009 18:12:52 GMT -5
Atta Boy !!! Lloyd!!!
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Post by jeremylong on Mar 3, 2009 18:34:05 GMT -5
Lloyd thats pretty interesting. Good followup as well. No death threats just an atta boy. Hey foulplay
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Post by Harley on Mar 3, 2009 18:34:43 GMT -5
I have just concluded what I intend to be my last correspondence with Mr. Mundy. He's just written me that he never intended to be on a thread, that he was just informing me to what lengths Leupold goes to ensure a good product. He asked that no one be directed to him because he wouldn't have the time to reply, and that it would be some time before he concludes any testing.
I apologized (not sure why) for "introducing" him to the Board, although I'd made it clear in my first email that I was part of a large group. I told him that the thread was now closed as far as I was concerned and that I would not again contact him or expect to hear from him until/unless he wanted to convey the results of Leupold's Savage testing.
End of story.
Harley
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Post by sagittarius on Mar 3, 2009 22:19:47 GMT -5
Harley, I commend you for contacting Leupold and Mr Mundy. Because of you, we might all reap the benefits of better built scopes for muzzleloaders in the future ! "Attaboy " ;D
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Post by corvair on Mar 4, 2009 6:05:05 GMT -5
I think everyone missed the point I was trying to make on my previous post.
It is not the recoil that is taking scopes out on the 10MLII, it is the action twisting under recoil. The twisting of the action imparts the same reaction onto the scope tube. Bedding, action screw torque, scope ring to scope tube interface are all things that will significantly decrease scope failure. You also have to have a scope with minimal backlash and historesis in it's adjustments.One Bushnell 3200 or 4200 might be better than another, one Leupy VX better than another etc..,You could line up 10 of each model and I would bet 50% would have slightly better tolerances then the other 50%.
All of these things combined are what kills scopes on the Savage. My Savage 22-250 doesn't kill scopes, less recoil, but far less action twist.
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Post by sw on Mar 4, 2009 7:49:36 GMT -5
Would a one piece scope base help prolong the life of our scopes?
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Post by jeremylong on Mar 4, 2009 9:01:13 GMT -5
I think everyone missed the point I was trying to make on my previous post. It is not the recoil that is taking scopes out on the 10MLII, it is the action twisting under recoil. The twisting of the action imparts the same reaction onto the scope tube. Bedding, action screw torque, scope ring to scope tube interface are all things that will significantly decrease scope failure. You also have to have a scope with minimal backlash and historesis in it's adjustments.One Bushnell 3200 or 4200 might be better than another, one Leupy VX better than another etc..,You could line up 10 of each model and I would bet 50% would have slightly better tolerances then the other 50%. All of these things combined are what kills scopes on the Savage. My Savage 22-250 doesn't kill scopes, less recoil, but far less action twist. Corvair - I could be wrong but I dont think the action on these ML's see nearly as much stress as say my 300 win mag. With the breechplug threaded in the barrel the majority of stress is transfered to the end of the barrel as a not the end of the action. Then the recoil lug into the stock. So I dont quite understand how it could be seeing more twist than say a 300 win mag.
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Post by Harley on Mar 4, 2009 9:05:17 GMT -5
If Corvair is correct, once we've done the usual tweaks, we are pretty much hoping we aren't victims of chance in buying a less than perfectly made scope; so, I hope Jeremylong's answer is right.
Harley
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Post by Harley on Mar 4, 2009 9:08:00 GMT -5
Just got an email from Leupold saying my scope has been repaired and is on its way back to me. Eight days after they signed for its receipt it has had a major overhaul, including replacement of the initial reticle with the Varmint Hunter reticle. I think that's good service. Can't wait to try it out on the Savage.
Harley
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Post by Chris Champion on Mar 4, 2009 9:16:29 GMT -5
I think alot of it has to do with how often some of us shoot these high recoiling loads. How many people put 300-1000 shots a year through a 300 Win Mag or 375 H &H mag? My guess is not many. My 12 ga Ithaca had significantly more recoil then my Savage even with 300g bullets at 2400 fps. The Ithaca wore a Burris 2.5 power scope in Weaver aluminum mounts...the kind that basically just wrap around the scope. I've shot my Savage more in the last year then I shot my Ithaca in 15 years. That little Burris has been on it from day one and never had any issues related to recoil. I had a Knight MK85 for years that wore a 1.75-5x Tasco World Class in the same kind of flimsy aluminum mounts. That gun kicked just as much with 100g of T7 and 250g bullet as my Savage does with book loads. Again that gun was only shot 20-30 times a year. Again no scope problems.
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 4, 2009 9:53:30 GMT -5
Harley,
Good move, at least he will know we are even handed in our thinking, I trust he will play my message.
Marty
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 4, 2009 9:58:09 GMT -5
I would like to second, what Chris said, my .54 cal. Knight MK, recoiled more than my Savage.
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Post by jeremylong on Mar 4, 2009 9:59:31 GMT -5
Too bad we didnt have a good solid model of it, I could have the guy across the wall throw it in the structural analysis software for us.
Who knows but I could definitely see the recoil lug acting like a lever causing downward force on the rear of the action possibly.
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Post by rexxer on Mar 4, 2009 10:04:19 GMT -5
I believe Chris and Corvair both have valid points.
Could it also be related to the design of the Savage action?Many actions have a rear action screw. the Savage uses a action screw on the front of trigger guard. This would make the rear of the action more of a cantilever resulting in more vibration and torquing.
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