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Post by sagittarius on Mar 1, 2009 14:14:35 GMT -5
Was talking to a rifle builder the other day and we happened to start talking scopes. He said, most of today's scopes can't handle the recoil of the Savage muzzleloader and heavy cartridge rifles. No surprise there !  He asked, what type of scope I had, I told him I had a Burris XTR Tactical. He told me, in his own way, it was a POS.  d**n, hated to hear my 700 dollar scope was s**t . ;D Actually, I was OK with it, I guess.  He said, if my eye piece moves with my power ring, my scope won't hold its zero very long. Didn't remember for sure so checked it after I got off the phone. d**n, my scope is, for sure, a POS !  He said Burris used to be one of the most rugged scopes in the past but had since went to hell. He also said the new Leupolds were a POS too. He said the top Bushnell scopes were pretty good. Reminds me what some of you guys on this forum say. I wasn't a bit surprised to hear he thought Nightforce was the best. He said, it's not a matter of "if" your scope will fail but "when" it will fail if mounted on a Savage Muzzleloader. No wonder, I read so many posts about scope failures on this forum !  Bearbasin, in their own way, told me much the same last year. The experts at Bearbasin say there are only 3 scopes to consider if you want no troubles. They are Schmidt & Bender, IOR, and Nightforce. The guy at Bearbasin told me last year that Nightforce was as good as Schmidt & Bender at 1/2 to 1/3rd the price. d**n-it, I knew, I should have ordered that NightForce right there. Hate to admit it but I will probably never have confidence in my Burris again. Maybe I need to start a NightForce kitty. ;D What do you guys think; do we need to spend big bucks to get a scope that will last ? |
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Post by dougedwards on Mar 1, 2009 14:23:49 GMT -5
Everyone has an opinion. Even the so-called experts disagree. I will agree that IOR, Schmidt@Bender and Nightforce are all built like tanks but they fail also. They are also very heavy scopes in weight and also heavy for the pocketbook. I wouldn't throw away your XTR just yet. Let experience help form your opinion. One day you might go back to this guy and tell him that you have been waiting every day for your Burris to fail and after 5 years you are still waiting.
Doug
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Post by sw on Mar 1, 2009 14:37:41 GMT -5
I agree with Doug. That said, Nightforce has an excellent 2.5X10 md scope that you should consider that is much smaller than the 50/56mm models. I'm hoping the the WCE is also a good answer to this problem.
Not to beat a dead horse even deader, but the 195/200g bullet out of a 40 or 45 cal barrel is much gentler than a 300g bullet @2300'/sec out of a 50, or a 45. IMO, there is just no good reason to be shooting such heavy bullets if the target is just deer, hogs, or black bear.
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Post by Harley on Mar 1, 2009 14:39:07 GMT -5
After my Leupold 6.5-20x40 EFR failed recently, I called their "product support specialist" for advice. I told him I didn't want to repair the scope if it was just going to fail again on a heavy magnum-type rifle. He said, "It's built to take the pain." So, when I get it back, I'll re-mount it on the Savage and see how long it lasts.
Harley
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 1, 2009 15:04:09 GMT -5
What makes an expert? Someone selling a product, some one getting paid to recommend a product, and yes, ALL compamies ahve so called experts on their payrolls
I'm an expert on NOTHING, what I know, is I have had two Leupold on my Savage rifles for seven years, 5000 plus shots fired, and from reading the post on this site few folks shoot heavier loads, so till one my scopes fail........An if they both fail this Thursday [range day] what would it mean? It will mean I got great service out of them, Airports, Bush planes, trucks, swamp buggies, ATM and so on. Proformance is what counts. Everyone has an opinion
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 1, 2009 15:06:02 GMT -5
ATV, someday, I'll write a post without making a error..............MAYBE
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cgg
Spike
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Post by cgg on Mar 1, 2009 15:09:31 GMT -5
Not to beat a dead horse even deader, but the 195/200g bullet out of a 40 or 45 cal barrel is much gentler than a 300g bullet @2300'/sec out of a 50, or a 45. IMO, there is just no good reason to be shooting such heavy bullets if the target is just deer, hogs, or black bear. How about because that's the only bullet weight my Savage will consistently shoot with the accuracy I want? RL7 and H4198 and .452/300 XTP's shoot 1 1/2" or better all the time--often under an inch. The rifle won't do that with any 200 to 250 grain bullet I have tried. And I have fired over 900 rounds through my Savage since January '07. My T/C Omega will shoot 200 ShockWaves and 195 Barnes into an inch at 100 with 120 grains of Blackhorn209. Maybe I should stick with that? BTW & FWIW I have not had a failure with the Leupold VariXII 3-9X-40 on my Savage. |
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Post by sagittarius on Mar 1, 2009 15:13:09 GMT -5
SW, I believe you're correct about the lighter bullets. I have a bunch of Barnes 195 gr bullets awaiting my .45 Pac-Nor's arrival.  |
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Post by Dave W on Mar 1, 2009 16:01:16 GMT -5
The most impressive report I have seen for handling the recoil was by Jeff, thousands of shots with Weaver Grand Slams with no failures, this is with an AO scope.
Of the people I know personally and talk to at the range, Leupold has come up by far the most when it comes to problems, but people are going to judge with their personal experiences.
The non AO scopes seem to hold up fairly well, many have had good luck with several different brands.
2 4200's, a VXIII, and a SII BS, all AO scopes and all failed in the last couple years, my conclusion, use what you like but don't expect it to hold up if it has an adjustable objective, except for maybe the Grand Slam that Jeff speaks so highly of.
Using a range scope and a separate hunting scope might help also but this did not save my 4200 from its second failure.
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Post by ET on Mar 1, 2009 16:36:01 GMT -5
“He said, if my eye piece moves with my power ring, my scope won't hold its zero very long.”
That’s an interesting comment I’ve never heard before. My new Vortex Viper rifle scope eye piece does not move when adjusting my power/magnification setting. Will see if this is true when I get a chance to use it.
Ed
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Post by rexxer on Mar 1, 2009 17:01:05 GMT -5
I have friends with forty dollar scopes on their slug guns and rifles. They think I'm insane for what I spend on scopes and I don't buy the good ones. Two of them have the $40 BSAs with lifetime warranty. Their commet was they wouldn't have a life time warranty if they weren't no good. I just smile and nod my head. Sometime its just not worth my breath! It a ball sometimes watching these guys sight in before deer season.
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Post by Harley on Mar 1, 2009 17:09:15 GMT -5
You're scaring me, DaveW, but of course there are more Leupold's out there than most other brands, so you'd expect to hear about more failures. I'm not taking up for them; I think the Savage recently destroyed one of my own Leupold's, not sure.
Harley
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2009 18:01:15 GMT -5
I have never heard of a Nightforce failure but let me tell you first hand IOR and the 4200s fall prey to the mighty savage with speedy 300 grainers, mine has lunched one of each. when I get the funds together this summer it will be wearing a 3.5x15x50 Nightforce with npr2 recticle on a one piece farrel base, in the interm the valdada is on its second life....Bill
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Post by rexxer on Mar 1, 2009 18:02:20 GMT -5
Since the Savage has earned the reputation of being scope busters are the non-smokeless shooting BH209 next in line with their lightweight guns. They have been getting closer to smokeless speeds so recoil must be increasing!
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Post by rexxer on Mar 1, 2009 18:08:52 GMT -5
Are 30 mm tubes with one piece mounts less prone to failure?
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Post by youp50 on Mar 1, 2009 18:30:08 GMT -5
I have a new Monarch 2.5-10 AND a venerable Leupold Vari X III 1.5-5 in the shop. Both did not hold up for more than 10 shots with 70 grains of powder (8/62 4759/4198) and a 300 gr bullet. They both appeared to vertical string more than horizontal.
Both are fully covered by the factory. I am quite certain I am done with the tuperware stock. I believe I will stick to 250 grainers or drop back to less than 2100 fps with the bigger slugs.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2009 19:25:05 GMT -5
REX, both of my failed scopes are 30mm but with 2 pc bases
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Post by Dave W on Mar 1, 2009 19:42:00 GMT -5
You're scaring me, DaveW, but of course there are more Leupold's out there than most other brands, so you'd expect to hear about more failures. I'm not taking up for them; I think the Savage recently destroyed one of my own Leupold's, not sure. Harley I agree there are more out there and their customer service is top notch, I have no plans to get rid of mine, this has been my favorite scope. I just find it odd that I rarely heard of any problems up until the last few years, now it is quite common, at least in this area. |
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 1, 2009 19:44:26 GMT -5
Neither I'm the luckiest guy in town or you folks are the unluckiest. 10 shots and broke, Before Rick asked me to drop back to 68grs, I was using 70gr of H4198 with 350gr X bullets, and it AIN'T broke yet
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Post by Dave W on Mar 1, 2009 19:49:04 GMT -5
For anyone interested, there is a Nightforce 3.5-15X56 NPR2 over on Modern for $1375 TYD, unopened.
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Post by younghunter86 on Mar 1, 2009 20:13:08 GMT -5
This thread makes me nervous! I've had my 2.5-10 new monarch since last January. It's held up just fine. It will go I'm my 45 when it arrives, and I'll be putting a used 3-9 monarch on my 50. I hope it lasts because I'm going to be shooting the 300 gr BO's and Rems out of it at 2400. I hope it's ready for a ride... ;D On a serious note. I've never had a scope break, as far as I know. This leads me to my next question. How do you knew when a scope actually breaks? Do groups just go everywhere, like from 1" groups to 1' groups at 100? Just wondering, so I know the symptoms but hope I never have to make a diagnosis. |
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Post by jeremylong on Mar 1, 2009 20:23:47 GMT -5
The only scope I actually know was too weak of a design that I used was a simmons prohunter. Wally world had it on sale and it had a lifetime guarantee so how could I lose. Well, the 7mm roughed them up. Three times I went got a new scope and the third is still sitting on my work bench and thats been probably 10-12 yrs ago or so. Too much wasted time for me. The burris signature took its place and never looked back. No problems ever out of my burris or leupold for me. The vari-x II leupy has taken all the savage has dealt out so far. It has watched almost 3 full boxes of BO's get flipped down range with 72-78 grains of 10x(along with a whole host of others). Its getting old though, so I got feeling bad and got it a new ride --- the 45  Life is good. |
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Post by Guessed on Mar 1, 2009 20:45:39 GMT -5
Last two I toasted were mounted on my Webley Patriot. Burris compact spun the reticle about ten degrees clockwise and a Swift 3x9 locked up it's power adjusting ring. And I believe the Burris Sig. 1.5x6 atop my MLII has screwt it's windage adjustment because the screw turns very hard in spots and my groups now exhibit dead on elevation and about 2 1/2" of horizontal stringing with the two different loads I was testing last week.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2009 20:50:01 GMT -5
Personally I have broken six scopes that I can remember, A tasco in the early days, that one dont count (throwaway) Bausch& lomb balvar, Nikon- one of the old japanese models, Nikon- recent model , Beeman- airgun scope, B&L 4200, Valdada and maybe one or two more,( my memory is not what it once was). I have owned many more that I was not pleased with for one reason or another, failed to move correctly/ failed to hold zero, etc. As you can tell Ive had my share of scope related problems in the past 30 years but thats life, Im still learning.....Bill
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Post by jeff on Mar 1, 2009 20:55:55 GMT -5
The most impressive report I have seen for handling the recoil was by Jeff, thousands of shots with Weaver Grand Slams with no failures, this is with an AO scope. This past year I did something I haven't done for 5 years, I used a Weaver Grand Slam 3.5x10x50 two years in a row and it cost me a miss on a booner earlier this past January. When a scope decides it's done it's done and in this case I had checked zero a couple days earlier. I have put new scopes on all my ml2s yearly since 04 when I had a rash of scope failures. This year a new G/Slam on my ml2 and a Leupold VXL 3x10x50 on my 50 pacnor. It's unfortunate to be reminded of scope failures on a animal that took 9 straight days on to get a shot on, when I knew that with a minimum of 800-1000 shots a year get put on my ML2, was risky business not changing scopes out. My Bad.  Jeff~ |
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Post by rexxer on Mar 1, 2009 21:11:10 GMT -5
Schmidt & Bender, IOR, and Nightforce are very expensive, I'm sure optics are a major reason . But why would they take the beating better? Design,hand built,materials, or is it very few people can afford one so there are only a few out there.
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Post by deadeye on Mar 1, 2009 21:13:11 GMT -5
Was talking to a rifle builder the other day and we happened to start talking scopes. He said, most of today's scopes can't handle the recoil of the Savage muzzleloader and heavy cartridge rifles. No surprise there ! He asked, what type of scope I had, I told him I had a Burris XTR Tactical. He told me, in his own way, it was a POS. d**n, hated to hear my 700 dollar scope was s**t . ;D Actually, I was OK with it, I guess. He said, if my eye piece moves with my power ring, my scope won't hold its zero very long. Didn't remember for sure so checked it after I got off the phone. d**n, my scope is, for sure, a POS ! He said Burris used to be one of the most rugged scopes in the past but had since went to hell. He also said the new Leupolds were a POS too. He said the top Bushnell scopes were pretty good. Reminds me what some of you guys on this forum say. I wasn't a bit surprised to hear he thought Nightforce was the best. He said, it's not a matter of "if" your scope will fail but "when" it will fail if mounted on a Savage Muzzleloader. No wonder, I read so many posts about scope failures on this forum ! Bearbasin, in their own way, told me much the same last year. The experts at Bearbasin say there are only 3 scopes to consider if you want no troubles. They are Schmidt & Bender, IOR, and Nightforce. The guy at Bearbasin told me last year that Nightforce was as good as Schmidt & Bender at 1/2 to 1/3rd the price. d**n-it, I knew, I should have ordered that NightForce right there. Hate to admit it but I will probably never have confidence in my Burris again. Maybe I need to start a NightForce kitty. ;D What do you guys think; do we need to spend big bucks to get a scope that will last ? SAG-SELL ME THAT POS BURRIS XTR FOR $300 OR SO, I PROMISE IN RETURN TO PROVIDE SOME GROUPS @ 1,000YDS OR MORE FROM CAMP PERRY,FORT DRUM,OR LATER FROM THE WHITTINGTON CENTER,NM,WHEN I GET THE CHANCE THIS YEAR/IM SERIOUS PM ME FOR SALE! |
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Post by sagittarius on Mar 1, 2009 21:51:17 GMT -5
[/quote]SAG-SELL ME THAT POS BURRIS XTR FOR $300 OR SO, I PROMISE IN RETURN TO PROVIDE SOME GROUPS @ 1,000YDS OR MORE FROM CAMP PERRY,FORT DRUM,OR LATER FROM THE WHITTINGTON CENTER,NM,WHEN I GET THE CHANCE THIS YEAR/IM SERIOUS PM ME FOR SALE![/quote] Deadeye, The rifle maker I talked to seemed to think the scope is a POS, not me. I was just kidding with my statements about it being a POS. I don't want to give up on my Burris just yet, despite what someone else told me. Especially with my new .45 Pac-Nor coming (hopefully) soon. Just curious, have you shot any of the Burris XTR tactical models ? If so, what do you think ? |
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Post by sagittarius on Mar 1, 2009 21:55:47 GMT -5
Schmidt & Bender, IOR, and Nightforce are very expensive, I'm sure optics are a major reason . But why would they take the beating better? Design,hand built,materials, or is it very few people can afford one so there are only a few out there. Here you go, Rex. Straight from the Horse's mouth, they explain it far better than I can. www.nightforceoptics.com/TECHNOLOGY/technology.html |
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Post by rexxer on Mar 1, 2009 22:13:10 GMT -5
They sure seem nice!
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Life is good.
