Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2009 22:28:13 GMT -5
They are very nice and hold their resale as well as any scope made, they regularly are compared & compete against scopes twice their price- S&B pm models and Us optics/ the best of the best. Enough, I sound like a salesman.
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Post by tar12 on Mar 1, 2009 22:42:01 GMT -5
Last two I toasted were mounted on my Webley Patriot. Burris compact spun the reticle about ten degrees clockwise and a Swift 3x9 locked up it's power adjusting ring. And I believe the Burris Sig. 1.5x6 atop my MLII has screwt it's windage adjustment because the screw turns very hard in spots and my groups now exhibit dead on elevation and about 2 1/2" of horizontal stringing with the two different loads I was testing last week. Cedars Burris just spun a reticle...
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Post by Harley on Mar 1, 2009 22:57:50 GMT -5
Just for "fun" this evening I emailed the director of sales (public relations) for Leupold in North America. I told him the size of our membership, how many people read the Board, and how few people are apparently buying and/or are satisfied with Leupold the past two years. I asked that he provide me with any information/evaluation he may have that would convince us that Leupold is still committed to quality.
Think I'll get a reply?
Harley
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2009 23:11:19 GMT -5
I would be suprised/ but I must say out of all the warranty issues I have dealt with, leupold is on top of the heap in customer service, I just wish their qc was better.....Bill
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Post by sagittarius on Mar 1, 2009 23:11:29 GMT -5
Just for "fun" this evening I emailed the director of sales (public relations) for Leupold in North America. I told him the size of our membership, how many people read the Board, and how few people are apparently buying and/or are satisfied with Leupold the past two years. I asked that he provide me with any information/evaluation he may have that would convince us that Leupold is still committed to quality. Think I'll get a reply! Nope ! ;D
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Mar 2, 2009 6:09:58 GMT -5
I guess there is a tale of every scope failing for one reason or another. Comes down to over-all quality and the element of human error while designing and producing man made objects.
Many scopes seem very solid and hold up. Probably made on an assembly line by a very experienced, qualified and hard working technician on a monday morning after his 3rd cup of coffee the day after he recieved a raise. I think this is the same guy who has made my small collection (6) of Leupolds. ;D
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Post by 161 on Mar 2, 2009 7:45:18 GMT -5
Would fixed power scopes be more rugged?
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Post by youp50 on Mar 2, 2009 7:47:10 GMT -5
When I had scope failure they went from nice tidy groups to a large vertical dispersion. I have had two scopes fail me in my lifetime. The Leupy was purchased new in 1980 and has seen a few animals die on several different rifles.
Customer service: I have been pleased by Leupold's customers service. I sent the scope in a year or so ago for a tune up. Nikon has better customer service. This particular scope has been to the factory before. It would not hold zero on a 25-06, not a particularly hard recoiling gun. Nikon sent me a pre-paid shipping label to return it. Bot companies seem to be interested in going good on the warranty.
The ML will get the Vari X III back on it.
The fellows I know that like Nightforce, like them for their absolute dead nuts on repeatability. Personally before I would buy a Nightforce, I would get a 45 cal barrel. It seems a better use of my money.
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Post by deadeye on Mar 2, 2009 8:48:15 GMT -5
SAG-SELL ME THAT POS BURRIS XTR FOR $300 OR SO, I PROMISE IN RETURN TO PROVIDE SOME GROUPS @ 1,000YDS OR MORE FROM CAMP PERRY,FORT DRUM,OR LATER FROM THE WHITTINGTON CENTER,NM,WHEN I GET THE CHANCE THIS YEAR/IM SERIOUS PM ME FOR SALE![/quote] Deadeye, The rifle maker I talked to seemed to think the scope is a POS, not me. I was just kidding with my statements about it being a POS. I don't want to give up on my Burris just yet, despite what someone else told me. Especially with my new .45 Pac-Nor coming (hopefully) soon. Just curious, have you shot any of the Burris XTR tactical models ? If so, what do you think ?[/quote] ********************* sag,i was kinda joking too,i have 2 xtr tac's & a black diamond with a combined 700shots w n120/300bo loads,so far flawless . burris is a good brand with great customer service much like savages. in all my years of shooting & scope switching etc/for the money-burris. i love my nightforce & if i could afford it they would all be saddled with nf,by the way i had to send the nightforce in @ first it would not proof,all scope man's have a few problems & times where quality is not at its best/jmho
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Post by sagittarius on Mar 2, 2009 9:03:16 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply, Deadeye. One reason I ordered my Burris tactical is because they have a heavier outer tube and more massive internal parts than most other scopes in their price range so I assumed they would be a little more rugged. Their reputation is not what it was in the past and I wonder if it's because they make so many more models in different parts of the world than they used to. Like others that say "you will see more problems with Leupold due to the fact that there are far more Leupolds out there". I agree with you on NightForce; if I were rich, all my rifles would have one aboard.
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 2, 2009 9:21:55 GMT -5
I had a Burris pistol scope on a .50 cal.pistol, its makers name began with a K, I think its still made, I want to say he's in Minnesota, he also makes Rifles, never had a problem with the scope, and it took a beating, I use the same loads as I did in my Knight 50, in those days I thought nothing of shooting 50 to 80 shots out of the pistol before shooting my Knight 50 and 54. Those days are long gone, they went the same place most of my hair went.
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Post by dougedwards on Mar 2, 2009 10:45:21 GMT -5
Just for "fun" this evening I emailed the director of sales (public relations) for Leupold in North America. I told him the size of our membership, how many people read the Board, and how few people are apparently buying and/or are satisfied with Leupold the past two years. I asked that he provide me with any information/evaluation he may have that would convince us that Leupold is still committed to quality. Think I'll get a reply! Nope ! ;D I tend to think that you will get a reply. IMO Leupold's pricing for their product is rather high in comparison to the quality of glass that they produce on most of their products. However they have so much in their favor such as reticle choices, some very good compact scope choices, lightweight, nice looking scopes but most of all they have very attentive customer service which is a dying breed in this country. Their scopes are like most others.......they have the ability to fail under harsh recoil conditions. That new Nightforce with the 32mm objective lens sure looks good but I just bought a Leica LRF 800 Rangefinder that set me back a bit. $1400 for a new rifle scope just isn't in the budget. At least my wife says so. The Weaver Classic Extreme is getting some hot attention from the air gun guys as it seems to be holding up really well under the strange recoil system of their guns. I am waiting to see how they hold up to the heavy and harsh smokeless loads. I may stick mine on my Savage 10ML just to test it. 75 grains of 10x under a 300 grain projectile will rattle your teeth.....and also a rifle scope. But I have a strange hunch that it is capable of handling it. Doug
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Post by corvair on Mar 2, 2009 11:32:03 GMT -5
The Savage 10/12 series actions are known for flexing under heavy recoil. This can be minimized by bedding and torquing the action screws to factory specs(and in the right order).
Doesn't seem to matter the brand of scope(other than those high end ones described by others above) but each manufacturer has wide tolerances of exceptable range of movement for windage and elevation(historesis and backlash). I think these tolerances being marginal account for failed scopes such as the Leupolds, Bushnells etc..,even in bedded 10ML II's.
I can give this example for my HB Savage(bedded):
Original scope was a Bushnell Elite 3200. My HB broke it twice and since I had a Swift Premium handy, I placed that scope on my HB. That was 3 years ago. Point I am trying to make is that this Swift is a cheap scope, but most likely has tighter than normal windage and elevation tolerances. One person having success with a particular model of scope or brand where another person has failure probably boils down to lack of bedding and/or poor adjustment tolerances.
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Post by minst7877 on Mar 2, 2009 11:37:33 GMT -5
Air rifles produce a double recoil one in each direction. Shotgun and Rifle scopes are designed to withstand recoil in one direction. Scopes designed for one direction usually get eaten for lunch when placed on a air rifle however the ones designed for the air rifle will usually hold up very well on a rifle or shotgun. Maybe we should be looking into air rifle scopes for use on our ML II's
DC
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Post by twister on Mar 2, 2009 11:42:27 GMT -5
Guys I have been shooting for over forty years.I have shoot almost every kind of firearm that anyone would consider using as a hunting firearm.I have used different brands of scopes on slug guns,turkey guns shooting three and a half inch shells with two and a quarter ounce of shoot,and I have shoot a lot of different muzzle loaders including severals Savages.I will not argue the merits or track record of various scopes,But one thing I can tell you for sure as I think it was the great bench rest shooter Warren Paige that wrote about this issue.Be Very Careful How You Pick Your Expert.Twister
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Post by lwh723 on Mar 2, 2009 12:58:41 GMT -5
He said, if my eye piece moves with my power ring, my scope won't hold its zero very long. I wasn't a bit surprised to hear he thought Nightforce was the best. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the eye piece moved with the power ring on the Night Forces? I sold my 3-15x56 NF about a year ago, and I can't remember for sure. My NF was a pretty sweet scope, but they're really heavy. Also, I would not recommend going with the 56mm objective... way too bulky.
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 2, 2009 13:45:10 GMT -5
Twister,
Amen
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Post by 8ptbuk on Mar 2, 2009 14:48:18 GMT -5
MY SIGNATURE SERIES 3 X 10 X 40 IS AT BURRIS AS WE SPEAK GETTING REPAIRED. AFTER ABOUT 125 SHOTS IT GOT BLURRY AND THE POWER ADJ. LOCKED UP AND WOULD'NT TURN. IM REALLY WORRIED ABOUT PUTTING IT BACK ON !!! DON'T WANT ANOTHER FAILURE !!! ESPECIALLY IN HUNTING SEASON. SAVAGE RECOIL IS TOUGH ON SCOPES WITH 300GR. BULLETS !!!
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Post by whyohe on Mar 2, 2009 16:30:05 GMT -5
looking this over i haven't shot as much as most of you but i have put over 100 rounds of smokeless loads down one of my savages and 50-75 down the other. i have i Nikon that has been on a savage for 7 years and no problems. now one of mine has a one piece base and the other is a 2 piece base.
i guess my question, as was brought up before by some one else, is does a one piece base help to keep a scope from failing? how many of the scopes out there that have failed where on a one piece base? may be i should start a new thread with a poll!
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Post by Dave W on Mar 2, 2009 18:14:55 GMT -5
This thread makes me nervous! I've had my 2.5-10 new monarch since last January. It's held up just fine. It will go I'm my 45 when it arrives, and I'll be putting a used 3-9 monarch on my 50. I hope it lasts because I'm going to be shooting the 300 gr BO's and Rems out of it at 2400. I hope it's ready for a ride... ;D On a serious note. I've never had a scope break, as far as I know. This leads me to my next question. How do you knew when a scope actually breaks? Do groups just go everywhere, like from 1" groups to 1' groups at 100? Just wondering, so I know the symptoms but hope I never have to make a diagnosis. The first 4200 developed a haze on the inside. The 2nd one had a problem with the windage adjustment. The VXIII and the SII BS both would not group with proven loads, I could not hit the target at 200yds with either.
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Post by Harley on Mar 2, 2009 18:30:19 GMT -5
JeremyLong, I think the following quote you posted was directed at me:
"I think you need to speak for yourself and not us as a group. I disagree with your perception."
I AM speaking for myself, in that my own scope broke while on my Savage a couple of weeks ago and is now being repaired.
In my original post I said "...how few people are apparently buying and/or are satisfied with Leupold the past two years." I was speaking here of those people who have posted problems and concerns about Leupold over the time period I have been a member. There have been a lot of them, enough that I think Leupold might be concerned. At least I hope so.
Nowhere in that short post did I intend to imply that I was a spokesperson for the group as a whole. When I wrote "apparently" I was indicating how it seemed to me. I know very well that Leupold has its defenders. I've always been one of them; every scope I own, with one exception, is a Leupold.
I'd just like enough reassurance to be confident enough to put my newly repaired scope back on the Savage.
What "perception" of mine do you disagree with? That a lot of people are nervous about risking a Leupold on a Savage ML? If so, okay, disagree. I don't see, though, that I did any harm to anyone or understand why it offends you.
BTW, although I didn't mention it in my post, I did emphasize in my email to Leupold that the greatest concern was with scopes having an adjustable objective.
Harley
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Post by Harley on Mar 2, 2009 19:01:23 GMT -5
I just checked my email and was pleased to find the following from Mr. Pat Mundy of Leupold:
"This is the first I have ever heard of any of our scopes having trouble on a particular rifle. I don’t know why they would have trouble with the savage 110ML, as they are tested at a recoil level that should exceed that particular firearm. I do know that we impact test every competitive brand of riflescope we can get our hands on, and so far none of our competition has consistently passed the recoil tests that even our least expensive models must pass.
That said, I will definitely pass your note over to quality assurance. Perhaps they can run some tests and see if there is a special recoil characteristic of that particular firearm that may be causing issues.
Thank you for the note!
Pat"
I don't know where he got "110ML", but at least he seemed familiar with the concept of ML's. How about the part of his reply that none of Leupold's competition consistently pass tests that even the cheapest Leupold can ace?
I appreciate his response; whether or not I hear from him again, at least Leupold has been given "apparently" its first heads up.
Harley
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 2, 2009 19:10:47 GMT -5
Harley,
Thanks for the gents name,I will e-mail and tell him off the 5000 + full load shots I have fired with my two Savage rifle, both that wear Leupold scopes, to say nothing of the many air miles I have log with them, its only far to tell both sides of a story.....don't you think.
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Post by Richard on Mar 2, 2009 19:22:23 GMT -5
Even in the benchrest community, there is fear of scopes loosing their POI with the lowly recoiling PPC's. And, a good majority are using Leupolds. What one noted competitor and "tinker'er" has been doing is "Epoxying" the erector tube in place. He then uses a set of external mounts that incorporate both verticle and horizontal adjustments. Mounts of this type are available but somewhat pricey. There are a number of other benchresters who are performing the same "fix." Of course we are only talking about very "slight" movement of the reticle, but any movement that makes a .2" group into a .3" is cause for concern in the short range game. By the way, I do have a Unertle 8X target scope with "external" mounts/adjustments for sale. ;D Richard
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Post by tar12 on Mar 2, 2009 19:35:50 GMT -5
That was great that he took the time to attempt to adrress your concerns.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2009 19:41:45 GMT -5
I guess I've been very fortunate. I coming up on 1000 shots with my Savage. 99% of them have been 300gn bullets going between 2250-2400 fps. 500 with a Nikon 3-9X Buckmaster and the rest with a Bushnell 4200 4-16X AO. The last 100 with the Bushnell have been since I lightened my Savage to 8 3/4lbs/ with 300gn bullets @ 2200-2350fps. Both scopes have proven so far to be tough enough Zen
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 2, 2009 19:42:19 GMT -5
Rather than e-mail, I called the Gent, and left a messure on his voice mail
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 2, 2009 19:43:28 GMT -5
message LOL
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Post by Harley on Mar 2, 2009 22:21:11 GMT -5
Sure, Bigmoose, I think it only fair that both sides of every story be presented; however, the concern here was not that a lot of Leupold's are okay, but that a lot of them are reportedly not okay on this particular rifle. Of more interest to me was Mr. Mundy's mentioning that the low end Leupold's are consistently more enduring than anybody else's scopes. I sure don't know what to make of that.
Bottom line for me: I shoot Leupold; the only Leupold I've ever broken was on the Savage. Lots of other Board members have reported breaking Leupold's on their Savage's. I thought the factory ought to know; and if something needs to be done to improve the Leupold, I hope reports like this will get their attention.
Harley
P.S.: Earlier I sent Mr. Mundy a thank-you note:
Thank you, Pat, for such a quick response. I've already posted to the Board your intention to pursue the issue. By the way, I didn't mean to overstate the problems reported; Leupold has many loyal customers. I'm one of them. If you learn anything from quality assurance, I'd appreciate the opportunity to share it with my fellow Board members.
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Post by Harley on Mar 2, 2009 22:29:27 GMT -5
Funny you should mention Unertl, Richard. I had both the Unertl Vulture and the Lyman Junior and Super Target Spot scopes on my varmint rifles back in what I believe were the '60s. I was thinking of them recently and googled. I found a site that apparently collects them for resale.
The nice thing about them relative to the Savage ML was the external spring that allowed the scope to maintain much of its resting inertia and still remain at zero. I haven't looked through one of this type in decades and don't know if optically they can compete with newer scopes; but, it's interesting.
Harley
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