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Post by Harley on Nov 1, 2010 11:24:57 GMT -5
A week ago I posted my disappointment at hitting and losing a deer. I felt guilty about the prolonged death of the deer and frustrated that I didn't have a dead deer in hand and not happy that I had lost a $25 arrow. Day before yesterday I was back in that same stand; I shot a doe at 39 yards, heard it hit, watched her run; because it was still an hour before dark I waited 30 minutes before looking for her. No arrow, no blood trail, no sign of the deer. Sure, that's hunting, particularly bow hunting, but it's enough that I am semi-seriously doubting my commitment to bow hunting. (Okay, I'll get over it.) Yesterday, I switched to my rifle for the first time this year; at first light I killed a deer at just 74 yards. No joy at that "gimme" shot. Late yesterday afternoon, looking directly into the setting sun I saw a deer at the far end of the field, just poking along. I had to hold one hand cupped over the objective of my scope to reduce a little of the sun flare, but she dropped DRT. I ranged from the stand to the downed deer at 283 yards. Okay! Confidence back up. After a self-satisfied walk to her, I saw that I had hit her in the neck, not at all where I was aiming. Confidence takes a hit. Maybe I should take up crocheting, but I'd probably drop a stitch. LOL Harley
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Post by dougedwards on Nov 1, 2010 18:31:01 GMT -5
I find that subconsciously I aim higher or more specifically in the middle of the torso of the deer when my target is smaller (further away). This is not good. The deer hears the sound of the arrow vanes buzzing through the air and crouches to spring away. You get the picture. A small diameter pin helps tremendously with this situation. A .10 pin is not hard to see even in dim light on a good quality sight. We should pick a hair to aim at even when the deer is in a distance (40-60+ yards).
Not saying that this was your situation but just throwing it out as a personal experience. You have heard "aim small, miss small". That is so true. But it is also true that if you take specific aim at the lower quarter right behind the bend in the leg of the deer you will either miss low or should have a lethal hit if you shoot straight. I have never been as mad at myself for missing as I am for knowing that I made a hit and not finding the deer.
In the immortal words of the late Jim Valvano "Don't give up. Never, Never give up"
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Post by tdillinger on Nov 1, 2010 18:54:09 GMT -5
dougedwards Made a good point about the sound of the wind against the vanes of an arrow. At ranges 30 to say 45 yards I aim a tad lower; at 50 and 60 yards I am at the desired target and not so much worried about the noise as I am far enough away for it not to be heard. Bow hunting is not easy, there is so much to do. I practice so many different angles and distances. and I kick myself after all this time for making mistakes. But practice really does make perfect. I have been shooting my new bow so much my elbow hurts and is a tad bit swollen. Keep at trying something will happen.
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Post by sw on Nov 2, 2010 22:01:41 GMT -5
Strykeforce
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Post by pposey on Nov 3, 2010 8:06:05 GMT -5
Seems your taking iffy shots, limit bow ranges shorter and better light, and 283 yards with the sun in your face is out there for any weapon,,,
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Post by Harley on Nov 3, 2010 9:00:30 GMT -5
pposey, I don't know how to answer your post without sounding either defensive or conceited; but, I am competent with the bow in a hunting situation beyond 40 yards, though I'd hesitate to take a longer shot. I think I hit my first deer maybe 1" high at something like 35 yards. Here's the story on the second deer: I'm left handed; that means shots to the left are awkward for me and I have to twist my whole body in that direction when I draw. After ranging that deer at 39 yards, stationary and broadside, I drew the bow, but as I came to full draw my left elbow touched the tree trunk behind me, causing the pull to come out of the full draw "valley". I leaned forward and pulled again, but the same thing happened. The deer looked up and stared after that second movement; the third time I managed to hold a full draw, lined everything up and shot. I'm guessing the deer got a jump on the arrow and it hit her a little off where I was aiming. My post was pretty much laughing at myself, not really serious, except for the part about feeling guilty at wounding deer. The older I get, the more I think about things like that. BTW, the deer I shot in the neck with the rifle was the fourth I have killed at that edge of the field, and the shortest distance of the four. The longest was the 319 yard shot I posted in 2008 with the .45 Pac-Nor. I don't guess this latest was too bad a shot, considering I was holding the rifle with one hand. Harley Harley
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Post by pposey on Nov 3, 2010 11:38:59 GMT -5
Well for me loosing 2 deer within a week with a bow is 2 too many, both left with the arrow, both were wounded, also taking a 300 yard shot with the sun in my face isn't for me when it's on an animal.
I have lost deer before with a bow, 2 actually, both worried me bad, about ruined my season both times and both were years ago. One the deer jumped the string at 30 yards after becoming alert at my scent I guess, and I gut shot the poor bugger,,the other I made a high and back hit that bled little and did not exit the bottom of the chest as I thought it would as several other simular hits had on deer from that angle, that deer ran off with a foot of arrow sticking out it's back, perhaps I hit a rib going in and stuck in another going out, I can drop arrows into a 6 inch target all day from 50 yards, but I will not take a 50 yard shot at a deer, or a 40 or even a 30 unless the deer is relaxed and completly unaware I am there. I let most deer walk that I see bow hunting, I am that picky about my shots,
I try all kinda shots at targets, but on game I'm really picky anymore no matter the weapon
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Post by Harley on Nov 3, 2010 13:20:51 GMT -5
"Well for me loosing 2 deer within a week with a bow is 2 too many"
Me, too.
Harley
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Post by pposey on Nov 3, 2010 14:09:10 GMT -5
understood
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Post by DBinNY on Nov 3, 2010 20:19:30 GMT -5
Harley, pposey make a good point. I know many of you are very good shots at extended distances with a bow. One thing to consider is the sound travels faster than an arrow but slower than a bullet. I've shot 20 some deer with the bow and a handful of them have been at 40 yards (never further). One of those deer heard the shot and spun so I hit him in the hind quarter and the broadhead ended up in the chest. He went 30 yards. Great shot, no way, I was just lucky.
I have lost just 1 of those deer that I hit and yes, I do miss once in a while (usually high). If you limit your shots to closer deer I guarantee your success will increase. That long distance practice perfects your form and makes those closer ones chip shots. I like them about 15 to 25 yards ideally.
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Post by Harley on Nov 3, 2010 21:26:03 GMT -5
DBinNY, I've got no argument; it's a no-brainer that the closer the deer the surer the shot. The trick for me to remember is just what you and pposey are arguing - try to limit at least most of my shots to a distance at which the deer itself can't influence the outcome. I think that would be at about 25 yards, given the speed of my bow. At that distance I don't think the string can be jumped.
Harley
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Post by dougedwards on Nov 4, 2010 9:37:00 GMT -5
DBinNY, I've got no argument; it's a no-brainer that the closer the deer the surer the shot. The trick for me to remember is just what you and pposey are arguing - try to limit at least most of my shots to a distance at which the deer itself can't influence the outcome. I think that would be at about 25 yards, given the speed of my bow. At that distance I don't think the string can be jumped. Harley I would like to respectfully disagree that a whitetail is incapable of "jumping the string" at 25 yards. In fact, according to my experience more deer jump the string at 25 yards than at almost any other distance. It is a close enough distance to hear the release of the string very clearly as an impending threat and it is far enough away to allow the deer to react to the sound. If sound travels at 1050 fps (varies depending on air density and temperature) the noise created by the release of the arrow will reach the deer's ears in less than 1/10th of a second (.075) if the shot is 25 yards away. The arrow propelled by a very fast bow in a hunting set up might be traveling @ 300 fps and reach it's target in about .25 of a seond. This leaves a gap of, at the very least, .15 of a second reaction time. Even a well trained 100 yard sprinter is able to react to the sound of the starting gun in about 1/10th of a second. I would suppose that a deer is much more capable of reacting faster than a human if the deer is alert. If the shot is closer than 25 yards the deer has less time to react even though the sound at release might sound more impending. As the shot gets further out the deer usually is reacting to the sound of the arrow instead of the sound of the release of the arrow which gives it less time to react. All in all, any of us who have hunted for any period of time know that there can be almost no hard and fast rules concerning deer that we can totally depend on. But my input is that the longer shots are more risky not because of sound but because of our inability to accurately judge distances while we focus on a smaller target. Lots of animals are harvested in the Western plains of our country at very long distances with a compound bow. This is done out of necessity and not out of a curiosity to see how far someone can reasonably and effectively shoot. Unfortunately it may take those of us who don't customarily hunt in the Western plains various experiences of losing game before we might become proficient shooters at distances out to 40 yards and beyond. I know it sucks but hunting isn't a simple activity as the experience of losing game has been going on for thousands of years. Doug
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Post by Harley on Nov 4, 2010 9:46:47 GMT -5
Doug, I guess there's no end to ways we can discuss this topic. After evaluating all the above posts and reviewing a lifetime of bow shooting/hunting, I was forced to reconsider the maximum distance at which I could ethically take most shots. I'm still sticking with my roughly 25 yards; there's a difference, I think, between a deer's "reacting" to the shot, and actually getting out of the way of the arrow. I'm willing to bet that, if I aim at the forward section of the lower 1/3 of the vital area I will either hit a good shot or miss entirely at that distance. I hope I get a chance to prove it. Harley
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Post by pposey on Nov 4, 2010 11:27:59 GMT -5
Hope ya prove it as well,, I don't get to bow hunt much anymore, have only gone 4-5 times this year and have only had 2 deer within 50 yards, passed on one at 20 yards because she walked by looking right at me, I was at full draw ready to shoot but she had me nailed and I figured she would launch as soon as I released,, the other was at 40 yards, carefree and knew nothing was wrong in the world, I drew on that deer twice but he was a nice looking little buck and I just wasn't comfy with the shot and he never got any closer.
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Post by dougedwards on Nov 4, 2010 13:44:21 GMT -5
"there's a difference, I think, between a deer's "reacting" to the shot, and actually getting out of the way of the arrow."
It wouldn't be much fun if someone else chose our personal hunting ethics. When I speak of a deer jumping the string I do mean that the deer hears the shot and reacts to the extent that my accurately shot arrow totally missed the heart and lungs of the deer even if I still recovered the deer. If I hit a deer in the spine and he goes down after I aimed at the heart I am not pleased. However, somehow through the years I have learned not to allow frustrations to bother me much. Any day that I have the opportunity to hunt is another blessing regardless of the outcome of harvest.
Doug
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Post by redspinner3 on Nov 10, 2010 0:09:28 GMT -5
well guys I have a bear poler ltd, new it maybe got up to 180fps but never had a deer jump when shot. 15 to 40 yards and not that it didn't make audible noise but a that didn't alarm them. Just something to think about and I only use feathers not vanes. George
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Post by killahog on Nov 11, 2010 14:36:43 GMT -5
The one sure way to prove with any evidence that a deer will react to the sound of the bow shot is to get ahold of some of these hunting DVDs and slow the shot down frame by frame. I have Never seen a deer killed in any of the video's that did not react to the shot. In my opinion they all do every single time unless the deer is walking.
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Post by Dave W on Nov 11, 2010 17:58:37 GMT -5
The one sure way to prove with any evidence that a deer will react to the sound of the bow shot is to get ahold of some of these hunting DVDs and slow the shot down frame by frame. I have Never seen a deer killed in any of the video's that did not react to the shot. In my opinion they all do every single time unless the deer is walking. Exactly! I have seen a number of videos where guys grunt to stop the buck for the shot. The deer goes on alert and ducks the arrow. Years ago I had a Oneida Screaming Eagle, loved the draw but it was sooooo loud. I was shooting in the 250fps range I think, gimme 20yd or so shot and the buck dropped at the shot and I cleared his back. The bow was gone very quickly. I never believed they could jump the string until it happened to me. Some of our stands offer longer shots but all are set up for 15-25yds shots as the primary shot zone. I don't stop deer, they either stop on their own or I take a walking shot as long as they are close shots.
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Post by redspinner3 on Nov 11, 2010 22:07:11 GMT -5
It's the metallic noise, try recording it listen to your equipment in action could be your site or quiver mount. but deer hear sounds that don't even get an ear flick. George
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Post by Harley on Nov 12, 2010 10:03:01 GMT -5
It was dark enough that I couldn't say if one of the two deer I hit this year anticipated the arrow or not (the other didn't, for sure); I do know that two shots I missed earlier in the season went by a deer that didn't flinch; there was another doe feeding behind her that just lifted her head, then went back to grazing. Two years ago, I shot over a doe broadside in good light; she just stood there until I almost had a second arrow knocked.
That's not to say that deer don't "duck the string"; we've all seen the videos. Maybe it just says that deer are unpredictable and that a shooter should keep that in mind when deciding whether or not to shoot.
Harley
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Post by deadeye on Nov 12, 2010 15:59:25 GMT -5
if my memory is correct,years back studies showed it would take approx 700fps+ to totally eliminate the "duck", i have witnessed totally relaxed deer&elk ducking w. success,my solution,changed the frequency of the bow by padding,etc
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Post by dougedwards on Nov 14, 2010 10:54:11 GMT -5
This isn't concerning the "ducking" issue but is an issue that I struggled with in times past. In our current conversation we may be assuming that deer always remain broadside and still for us as we aim at the lower portion of the vitals. However, my experience is that browsing deer meander into all types of physical positions and a deer standing broadside when you are ready to draw may be in a completely different position by the time the bow is fully drawn. For this reason I believe that to be an effective bow hunter the archer must be able to draw easily and hold for long periods of time. Also he must be able to let down in a very easy and inaudible manner if neccessary. Crossbow archers don't have this problem to deal with.
I remember sometime back just as it was getting dark I pulled and released on a small buck that was feeding at 20 yards under the low branches of a tree as I pulled on him standing broadside. Not being able to see the definition of the deer completely as I looked through the peep sight I released at what I thought was the front shoulder, but the deer had moved into a slightly different position as it reached to browse on a leaf (assumption). Anyway, the nock lighted arrow entered just forward of his shoulder and into the base of his neck. The deer ran off with the lighted nock showing that the arrow did not pass through. Even though I tracked this deer for some time and eventually found the arrow with blood stained fletchings indicating that arrow had passed through during the deers run, the deer was never recovered.
If this scenario is bothersome to your ethical standards of making a good hit that is capable of bringing down a whitetail within 100 yards or so, then you have a choice to either discontinue bow hunting or make adjustments to help elliminate this occurance. I have made a decision to rarely take shots within 10 minutes of legal shooting time unless the deer is close enough for me to have an unencumbered and clear view of the bend at the elbow of the front leg.
Now I have chosen a bow and poundage which allows me to make a four second draw (I practice this almost daily) and hold for as much as 30 seconds and subsequent two second let down. I just traded for a Hoyt Maxxis set at 60 lbs and was unable to perform this tasks effectively so I sold the bow. One of the nicest shooting bows that I have ever held in my hand but was not suited for me in the hunting field. My choice was to reduce the poundage to 56 or sell.
I only set standards for myself and those standards have changed over time but as I get older the less inclined I am to injure a deer in hopes of a possible recovery. At the end of the long hunting season here in Virginia my freezer is always full and I would like my memories to be delightful ones so I fully relate to Harley's delima.
Doug
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Post by pposey on Nov 15, 2010 16:05:39 GMT -5
I am ALOT pickier on bow shots the past few years and this is in an area where you may see 1-2 deer per day,,,,,,,,,,, if any. Low light is a killer through a peep,,,, cuts the hunting day shorter for sure
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Nov 20, 2010 21:39:53 GMT -5
I feel one has to know their own realistic limit's when it come's to bow hunting. You know what they are. Mine is 30yds since I shoot a light arrow. However I have never shot a live deer over 21 yds...........But I have killed a lot of foam ones out to 55yds...lol But at that range a step forward can cause a lot of heartache. Good hunting Drop
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Post by russkull on Nov 26, 2010 11:32:57 GMT -5
Harley here, typing on Russell's computer. I've been here in Houston, TX for the past 11 days since receiving a call from an emergency room that Russell wrecked his motorcycle; he had bleeding from two places in his brain, four broken ribs, a broken hip, broken leg and a broken ankle on the other leg. The good news is that, after four operations, he was released yesterday; really a Happy Thanksgiving for me. We'll stay here until his staples are removed, then I'll drive us back to Atlanta to begin physical rehabilitation. There's an outside chance that I could put him in a ground blind before the season ends on 12/31. (We haven't found the motorcycle, and I'm not looking too hard. ) Harley
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Post by Dave W on Nov 26, 2010 15:47:39 GMT -5
Hope he has a speedy recovery with no complications Lloyd.
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Post by ET on Nov 26, 2010 16:23:22 GMT -5
Harley
That’s um bad news and good news following the bad. Hope all goes well for a speedy and complete recovery for Russkull.
I don’t blame you for not wanting to find the motorcycle. If it’s not totaled I imagine your wrath might complete the task.
Ed
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Post by dougedwards on Nov 27, 2010 10:34:30 GMT -5
Wow.......that is startling to hear. Will be praying for Russell. I don't mind jumping out of airplanes but I would be scared to death to ride a motorcycle on the pavement.
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Post by jims on Nov 27, 2010 20:29:35 GMT -5
Hoping all goes well.
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