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Post by lwh723 on Feb 16, 2009 14:28:27 GMT -5
I'm planning on getting a 45 pacnor in the near future, and I'm trying to determine what barrel diameter to request. Tried to query this but couldn't find a definite answer. Initially, I plan to shoot saboted, but will probably want to try sabotless someday. From my searches I see people have everything from .448-.453. Looks like .448 works best with saboted, but is it possible to size down that far for sabotless shooting?
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Post by dave d. on Feb 16, 2009 14:37:47 GMT -5
:)iwh,you can't request the diameter.it should come in anywhere from .499 to .450.either way it will shoot sabots light's out and most have to get a sizing die for sabotless.goodluck
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Post by sw on Feb 16, 2009 14:38:10 GMT -5
There isn't a choice of sizes. There have been inconsistencies. My 1st barrel was 453 land-to-land while others were smaller. Nearly, if not all, are 448 now. RB had a 450 back when I got my 453 - we both thought they were the same. Mine wouldn't shoot like others. A 448 can be lapped to larger, but not easily. I think we now pretty well agree that re-sizing bullets to just below 448 and then knurling up is the way to go: at least for the majority of us. Now if you get a 40 cal(actually a 408 cal which has lands of 401), no re-sizing is required, just simple knurling is needed. RB stated that his newest shipment of 40 cal were almost 400 which need very slight knurling at most - I'm envious  . If you can legally use a 40 yet get a 45, WHY? |
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Post by lwh723 on Feb 16, 2009 14:41:30 GMT -5
There isn't a choice of sizes. There have been inconsistencies. My 1st barrel was 453 land-to-land while others were smaller. Nearly, if not all, are 448 now. RB had a 450 back when I got my 453 - we both thought they were the same. Mine wouldn't shoot like others. A 448 can be lapped to larger, but not easily. I think we now pretty well agree that re-sizing bullets to just below 448 and then knurling up is the way to go: at least for the majority of us. Now if you get a 40 cal(actually a 408 cal which has lands of 401), no re-sizing is required, just simple knurling is needed. RB stated that his newest shipment of 40 cal were almost 400 which need very slight knurling at most - I'm envious . If you can legally use a 40 yet get a 45, WHY? OK. Thanks for the quick answers. I wondered if I could even request a specific diameter. I live in Iowa (45 cal and up only) otherwise I would definitely go 40 cal.... |
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Post by sw on Feb 16, 2009 20:22:03 GMT -5
Harley, the long range champ(both tgt and game), has a 448 PacNor so the 45 should at least get you by since the 40 isn't an option for you.  |
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Post by rexxer on Feb 16, 2009 20:37:49 GMT -5
Harley, the long range champ(both tgt and game), That is awesome sw!
Somebody was EDGED out in the game dept! ;D
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Post by rbinar on Feb 16, 2009 21:01:50 GMT -5
8-)I agree with everything Steve and dave (ever notice his name is in small letters) said except for the dimensions.
With the first Pac-Nors there were some minor problems. Hey it's an ego trip but I'm going to take credit for solving most of them for the rest of you. When barrels were received with different dimensions I called and talked directly to the machinist (Casey) and asked what tolerance I could expect from their land and groove specs. They use .001" and when it was learned some of them were outside that limit he had no choice but to take them back.
Since then the .001" has held true (far as I know anyway) all my barrels come within that dimension of the target of .450 land diameter.
If you want to choose a special bore Casey has told he will make ANY size (again +/- .001") bore with any number of grooves between .22 and .51 caliber. The catch would be at least 6 barrels must be ordered at a time and it takes 6 months for delivery.
That means if a bunch of you guys wanted bores that shoot a .451" bullet with no sizing he could accommodate that. For that matter a .384 bore with .376 lands is possible as well. But six raw barrels (no breech plug cut) are $1500 getting them installation worthy is extra.
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Post by younghunter86 on Feb 16, 2009 22:22:16 GMT -5
rb
I may be missing the point and so then my question is pointless; but does this mean it would be possible to get a barrel to shoot .458 bullets sabotless?
That would be awsome. I"m sure some sizing would still be needed but you could shoot the Rem HP's, Hornady HP's and the BO's.
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Post by Dave W on Feb 16, 2009 22:56:35 GMT -5
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Post by smokeless77 on Feb 16, 2009 23:15:48 GMT -5
Dave W
If anyone is going to get a barrel from krieger, they might have it by next deer season. It is over 20 week wait min.
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Post by Al on Feb 17, 2009 3:20:09 GMT -5
Dave...........you buy it, I"ll try it?? Actually, I've really been tossing that one around since it was brought up on the old board (even thought the 475 route) 20wk wait, hmmmm. Guess thinking on it another week won't matter. |
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Post by rbinar on Feb 17, 2009 3:27:14 GMT -5
You're not missing the point. If the barrel could be sized (not the bullet) then .458 or most other bullets could be shot without sizing.
The point you're missing is .458 bullets don't have any advantage when shot sabot-less. The advantage of .458 in 50 caliber (if you believe there is one) has to do with the sabot. If the sabot is less a percentage of the bore volume then it may be possible to shoot with somewhat better accuracy than with a thicker sabot.
If you're a deer hunter and you think a 300 grain bullet must be chosen for terminal performance then I'm stunned. For those hunting Grizzly and Moose it's still not a problem because 290 all solids in .451" work great as they are. But if you want a heavier bullet I'm all for "overkill" to prevent me from being eaten or stomped.
Even now .458 bullets can probably be shot well if sized correctly. But WHO would want to shoot 300 grain bullets at deer when a 200 grain, effective bullet is available?
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Post by sw on Feb 17, 2009 8:18:16 GMT -5
But WHO would want to shoot 300 grain bullets at deer when a 200 grain, effective bullet is available? I expect that once a person starts shooting 195/200g bullets regularily, and then shoots a 300g bullet will quickly go back to the 195/200g bullets. Dead is dead. Historically, a 200g bullet >2600'/sec has been deemed adequate for killing a deer. |
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Post by edge on Feb 17, 2009 8:42:22 GMT -5
SNIP The point you're missing is .458 bullets don't have any advantage when shot sabot-less. SNIP That is, unless your bullet of choice happens to be a 0.458 such as the BO  edge. |
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Post by lwh723 on Feb 17, 2009 9:29:52 GMT -5
Harley, the long range champ(both tgt and game), has a 448 PacNor so the 45 should at least get you by since the 40 isn't an option for you. Yeah, that was some pretty amazing shooting. I think I'm really going to like shooting ~200gr bullets at >2600fps+ into little iddy biddy groups. Would have been nice to be able to do it without the sabot, but I guess I can always make myself a barrel cooler. |
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Post by younghunter86 on Feb 17, 2009 10:10:14 GMT -5
There are a couple of reasons why I would like to shoot .458 bullets sabotless.
1) First and foremost the .40 would be a perfect fit if it was legal. 2) I want to shoot sabotless due to the barrel heating issue here during the summer. Yes there are barrel coolers but unless I HAVE to go that route I don't want to mess with them. . 3) The same .458 bullets that I could shoot sabotless, I'm finding work very well in my inline ML's as well. I'm trying to keep things simple. 4) The BO is another reason why this route is enticing.
But... if I knew it was possible to size some of the .458 bullets small enough for the .45 pacnor I would be happy. Then I could shoot 200-300 grain bullets of all shapes and sizes. Has anyone ever tried to resize a Remington or BO .458 for their pacnor?
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Post by dougedwards on Feb 17, 2009 10:16:40 GMT -5
Just wondering........is it not legal in most states to hunt with a muzzleloader of any legal centerfire chamber size during regular firearms season that allows rifles? I know Virginia allows it but didn't know about the other states.
Doug
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Post by sagittarius on Feb 17, 2009 10:49:11 GMT -5
Just wondering........is it not legal in most states to hunt with a muzzleloader of any legal centerfire chamber size during regular firearms season that allows rifles? I know Virginia allows it but didn't know about the other states. Doug It is legal in my state, Doug. I would think it would be legal in all states. It's simple enough to do a search on the fish and game dept of any state you're interested in hunting and checking their regulations. |
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Post by KerryB on Feb 17, 2009 10:54:03 GMT -5
In Illinois it is legal to use a muzzleloading firearm during the regular firearm (shotgun) season as long as the muzzleloading projectile (bullet/less sabot), is .45 diameter. It is legal to use (centerfire) handguns of smaller caliber, but that doesn't affect the muzzleloader caliber requirements.
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Post by edge on Feb 17, 2009 10:58:56 GMT -5
snip But... if I knew it was possible to size some of the .458 bullets small enough for the .45 pacnor I would be happy. Then I could shoot 200-300 grain bullets of all shapes and sizes. Has anyone ever tried to resize a Remington or BO .458 for their pacnor? It is not that hard to size a 0.458 copper jacketed bullet down to 0.449, but you will probably want a 1 ton arbor press to do it. Solid copper bullets require a bit more if you want to do it in 1 pass...and I normally get some shearing action on solids with 1 pass sizing. A standard 0.458 barrel will allow the use of many different bullets, whereas a 465NE will only allow 0.458 or an up-sizing die for smaller bullets. edge. |
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Post by twister on Feb 17, 2009 10:59:31 GMT -5
I have ordered a sizing die from Lee,and I'm planning on trying sabot less . The reason I'm doing this is I ordered two Pac Nor barrels at the same time.One for my buddy and one for myself.They shoot extremely well with the light blue harvester and H4198.The problem we have is blown sabots.No matter how long we Wait between shoots or what the temperature is.We use 56 grains of H4198.not by choice,but because reliability is critical to us.We are able to achieve the higher velocity,but we keep blowing sabot from time to time.Are we doing something wrong or is this normal?.I would stick with the sabots if were not for this problem.My main use for these guns is hunting,and i can not tolerate firearm failure.Thanks for your help.Twister
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Post by dave d. on Feb 17, 2009 16:10:53 GMT -5
:)twister this is a first for me.i've had about 4 pac-nor .45's and i can shoot them with 5 minute waits in 80 degree weather.the harvestor sabot is one of the toughest.do you dry swab?
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Post by lwh723 on Feb 17, 2009 16:56:53 GMT -5
8-)I agree with everything Steve and dave (ever notice his name is in small letters) said except for the dimensions. With the first Pac-Nors there were some minor problems. Hey it's an ego trip but I'm going to take credit for solving most of them for the rest of you. When barrels were received with different dimensions I called and talked directly to the machinist (Casey) and asked what tolerance I could expect from their land and groove specs. They use .001" and when it was learned some of them were outside that limit he had no choice but to take them back. Since then the .001" has held true (far as I know anyway) all my barrels come within that dimension of the target of .450 land diameter. If you want to choose a special bore Casey has told he will make ANY size (again +/- .001") bore with any number of grooves between .22 and .51 caliber. The catch would be at least 6 barrels must be ordered at a time and it takes 6 months for delivery. That means if a bunch of you guys wanted bores that shoot a .451" bullet with no sizing he could accommodate that. For that matter a .384 bore with .376 lands is possible as well. But six raw barrels (no breech plug cut) are $1500 getting them installation worthy is extra. Not really interested in waiting 6 months.  They'd barely get here in time for next deer season. |
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Post by lwh723 on Feb 17, 2009 17:11:34 GMT -5
Hey it's an ego trip but I'm going to take credit for solving most of them for the rest of you. I'm more then happy to help you go on an ego trip. I'm just honored that you "pioneers" are willing to hand hold us newbies through the process.  As a side note, this board is way, way better than most hunting/shooting boards I've been on. You guys that really know a lot are very helpful to those who don't and don't come off as trying to impress everyone with your amazing knowledge, etc, etc. |
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Post by joe21a on Feb 17, 2009 17:12:32 GMT -5
Twister what weight bullet. I have shot 62 gr. IMR 4198 and have never blown a sabot. I use the tan MMP's and a 200 gr bullet
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Post by Dave W on Feb 17, 2009 18:58:00 GMT -5
Could there be a burr on the crown causing this?
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Post by twister on Feb 17, 2009 20:26:08 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply.We were using the light blue harvester with 195 Barnes.We were having the same problem with both barrels.My Buddy's was worse then mine.We started off with 60 gr of H4198 ,and we shot some great groups.Some slightly less than one inch,but the problem kept appearing with the blown sabots.Some times they would hit the large back board at 100 yds.Sometimes they would go into the black hole.When they hit the board they would be key holed.This happened to us a lot.So we finally settled on 56 grains to stop the problem.I had hoped to be able to obtain higher velocity,but I was not able to do it with reliability.We thought about using a wad but we never got around to that.We just thought maybe we were doing some thing wrong.We were dry swabbing between shoots.Thanks for your help.Twister
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Post by rbinar on Feb 17, 2009 20:31:35 GMT -5
There are a couple of reasons why I would like to shoot .458 bullets sabotless. 1) First and foremost the .40 would be a perfect fit if it was legal. 2) I want to shoot sabotless due to the barrel heating issue here during the summer. Yes there are barrel coolers but unless I HAVE to go that route I don't want to mess with them. . 3) The same .458 bullets that I could shoot sabotless, I'm finding work very well in my inline ML's as well. I'm trying to keep things simple. 4) The BO is another reason why this route is enticing. But... if I knew it was possible to size some of the .458 bullets small enough for the .45 pacnor I would be happy. Then I could shoot 200-300 grain bullets of all shapes and sizes. Has anyone ever tried to resize a Remington or BO .458 for their pacnor? I have not re-sized anything bigger than a .453 diameter bullet. Still I have heard reports from some that it is working if you size in two or more steps. From what I know and have experimented with the maximum you can size a bullet is .010" (if you can go smaller then consider me wrong) and that is within the range to get .458 bullets to shoot. I can understand anyone who already has 100s or 1000s of bullets to shoot wanting to use them as the primary load. I can also understand not want to wait for cooling. My problem is picking the BO (or any 458 bullet) with liking it in 50 as the only criterion. There are many bullets that would work as well, probably better, and require less effort as well. One thing I'd like to mention is barrel cooling. In 45 caliber I've noticed cooling is not as much an issue as it used to be. If you shoot 45 and observe the same I'd like to hear from you. The reason has NOTHING to do with the caliber. I think it has to do with a better barrel. When I take the 50 caliber rifles to the range I fire an average of about 9 to 18 shots for each rifle. I always take more than one (even in 40 or 45) to provide some cooling time. With a 45 caliber I take an average of 4 to 9 shots. This does not mean I don't have the day when I shoot 20 45 caliber shots but it's uncommon. The reason is the match grade barrel makes it easier to see results in fewer shots. In 45 I seldom have to make 1/2 or even 1 grain changes in load to be where I want to go. Loads are more tolerant so I experiment less. The fewer shots you fire in total the less you have to wait so most of the time I'm waiting only 5 to 7 minutes (including the time to load and shoot the other rifle) instead of 10 to 15 before I shoot. If you think I'm full of bull on this I can understand. There is no direct means to measure this and what I "think" is seldom proof of a concept. That is why I'd like comments from other 45 shooters. |
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Post by rbinar on Feb 17, 2009 20:41:11 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply.We were using the light blue harvester with 195 Barnes.We were having the same problem with both barrels.My Buddy's was worse then mine.We started off with 60 gr of H4198 ,and we shot some great groups.Some slightly less than one inch,but the problem kept appearing with the blown sabots.Some times they would hit the large back board at 100 yds.Sometimes they would go into the black hole.When they hit the board they would be key holed.This happened to us a lot.So we finally settled on 56 grains to stop the problem.I had hoped to be able to obtain higher velocity,but I was not able to do it with reliability.We thought about using a wad but we never got around to that.We just thought maybe we were doing some thing wrong.We were dry swabbing between shoots.Thanks for your help.Twister Twister I understand your problem because I live in Texas where it's hot. All those other pansies who live where it's cold won't experience this. If you look at the early load data for the 45 I suggested a maximum of 57 grains of h4198. The problem you are having is the reason. You can stick with the 56 grain load or if you want to go faster you can go to H322 or Benchmark. You can shoot more than 65 grains of both even in the heat. Then you can get your speed up without the pressure. I added this to my post 25 minutes later: You might also try some bore shine on the barrel but don't go 100s of strokes. Do 100 strokes and try it more than 200 is too much. |
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Post by dannoboone on Feb 17, 2009 22:57:48 GMT -5
Harley, the long range champ(both tgt and game), has a 448 PacNor so the 45 should at least get you by since the 40 isn't an option for you. Yeah, that was some pretty amazing shooting. I think I'm really going to like shooting ~200gr bullets at >2600fps+ into little iddy biddy groups. Would have been nice to be able to do it without the sabot, but I guess I can always make myself a barrel cooler. Barrel coolers are fairly easy to make....I can show ya mine before it gets hot. Also have some left-over insulation and the right size aluminum rod. You will find that the wait between shots without the cooler is less than with the .50, even without a cooler.....that is, if you are using Harvester sabots. The cooler helped when temps were in the 80's, but I didn't need it when they were below 70 degrees. |
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They'd barely get here in time for next deer season. 
