Musings on looong barrels

[Harley]

This is more or less just idle thinking out loud, but I see that at least one person is ordering a custom barrel at 30", and I have read a lot of discussion on the merits of the longer barrels.

What concerns me is that all I have read seems to focus only on the advantages of complete powder burn with the longer barrels. While I agree that a complete burn is necessary in order to maximize MV potential from a given load:

1. Is there a reliable reference in number of inches required for a complete burn with various powders/charges?
2. Is there a consideration of the downside of the longer barrels? I'm not talking about making a barrel-heavy rifle even more off-balance; I'm talking about barrel "whip" during firing. The longer the barrel the more likely that whip will interfere with accuracy, all other factors being controlled (barrel contour will make a difference, the thicker barrels showing less whip).
3. I suppose the more quickly the bullet leaves the barrel, the less effect whip will have. The downside to this is the added recoil from lthe heavier charge.

I'm thinking that the best of all possible worlds would be a rifle with a barrel just long enough to ensure a complete burn. Even here, though, you would have the slight downside of more recoil due to the weight saving of the shorter barrel.

What do you think?

Harley

[Deleted]

harley there are many differing views on this subject but some of the more accurate guns out there have fairly long tubes so I really dont believe barrel length is a liability when it comes to accuracy. The good thing about smokeless is being able to tailor power burn to barrel length, when my 28" goes to the range I might decide its not going to cut it, if thats the case I will cut it. I would hate to have a shorter barrel and wish it was longer, but then again thats just my way of thinking......Bill

[rbinar]

8-)Harley

A quick check of the history channel will give you the fact that when accurate long range rifles were first contemplated it was done with REALLY long barrels. They were measured in feet rather than inches.

Today just as then a rifle that is 10 feet long and takes 3 men to wield is more a practical matter rather than an accuracy concern.

What you give up in a long barrel is it can only be shot accurately from a mechanical rest and it takes much longer to get it pointed in the right direction. Other than that long is good.

[dougedwards]

I only see one advantage to longer barrels but it is a significant one. You can load up on slower burning powders to achieve much higher speeds and still not increase pressures compared to a reduced amount of faster burning powder. The longer barrel contains the burning gases longer for a more complete "push" of the projectile thus increased speed. But I do believe that there is a point of diminished returns.

I see what you are saying concering barrel whip. I am sure that is some small consideration but if a barrel whips to the same extent every time shot then accuracy shouldn't be much of a problem. I am not sure how much variant temperatures or humidity will affect barrel stiffness. I also have never seen any charts refering to powders used in muzzleloaders as they apply to barrel length required for a complete burn but there may be some for cased loads. Interesting question. You would think that if longer barrels had an accuracy advantage then the long range benchrest guys would have barrels three foot long.

[rbinar]

8-)From the other side of the coin ask yourself: How much powder is too much? This consideration is a part of your suggestion that the powder should be completely burned as the bullet leaves the barrel. That premise is fairly sound but some rifles shoot very well with over burn, still it's wasted energy.

How much powder depends on the area you have to fill with gas. A case like the 30-06 needs about 60+ plus grains because that's how much it holds with a full case and common weight bullets. However the powder might not all be burned even with only 60 grains. Another case like the 50 BMG might fully burn 225 grains. That's because how much powder is burned depends to some degree on the pressure. With a given area and properly chosen powder a lot can be burned without waste.

Percentage of powder burn will affect accuracy as well. Normally loads that are efficient are more accurate. That is why you'll see many bench rest shooters exceed SAMII standards (some are up there) for the case they are shooting.

All this means that the load must be adjusted well for greatest accuracy. That's the same with any rifle with any barrel. The difference is NO CASE. If you need more slower powder, what's to stop you? Knowing how much of any speed powder is right for a given barrel length and bullet weight is problematic but solvable.

So if you have a LONG barrel some load development will be a part of the trip. But common sense proceedures will still work.

[getonit]

I too am curious about the longer barrel potential for accuracy- and looking forward to the reports on the 28"/30" shooters... another part of the equation is what would be the optimum twist in these barrels for long range accuracy- would a long barrel/fast twist like the old sharps rifles (1:18) with a 34 " barrel work as well on our Savage action for long range? or would there be a better combination in todays world? granted these guns would not be for everybody but it seems everybody has their own tastes..... Rick

[smokeless77]

Harley,Try this www.liljariflebarrels.com, go to articles,to long rangeshooting,to barrel lengths in the 338/378 weatherby mag. He started out with a 46" barrel and kept lopping off 2" at a time just to experiment. Pretty interesting though.

[pposey]

All I know is that 54 grains of 4198 is all I can shoot outa my 21 inch shortie without a major muzzle flash,,, shoots great though and does not bother me as I am not after speed.

[Harley]

Smokeless, I just read Dan Lilja's very interesting article. I think he answered my questions. His caution to avoid "whippiness" by using at least a #4 contour barrel puts us Savage shooters in the clear.

BTW, my best custom rifle has a Lilja barrel. I believe in the man.

Harley

[smokeless77]

That, i think took him 6 weeks to do that test?

[deadeye]

anyone contemplating on long distance shooting should read lilja's article,imo-,its the foundation & a great place to start regardless of the barrel you are shooting& the perspective is real

[smokeless77]

That's right deadeye, its a quick education.

[sagittarius]

I've got a 30" Pac-Nor coming; I ordered mine mostly for looks but wouldn't mind a little extra velocity.
Looks like there's little extra velocity to be had according to the Lilja test but I don't mind.
Lilja would probably be my first choice in a custom barrel.
I suppose, most would think it's dumb to order a long barrel because you like the way they look but it's just the way I am. ;D
Like I stated in another thread, I love the look of the Bad Bull with its 30" barrel and wanted one for my MLII.
Weight and balance be damned.
Always wanted one of those Shiloh Sharps Long Range Express rifles with the 34" barrels.
I love the way they look too.

[smokeless77]

Sag, Did pacnor recomend any size barrel for the ammo you are using? Wondering if they can steer anyone in the right direction, when buying a barrel.

Thanks John

[DBinNY]

John, you might get what Harley has. The description is in his 400yrd post. Hard to argue with those results.

[sagittarius]

Feb 18, 2009 20:17:20 GMT -5 smokeless77 said:

Sag, Did pacnor recomend any size barrel for the ammo you are using? Wondering if they can steer anyone in the right direction, when buying a barrel.

Thanks John

No they didn't, John.
But it wouldn't hurt to ask them if you decide to order your own barrel.

[dougedwards]

I didn't read anything in Lilja's article that suggested that a long barrel wouldn't be accurate. In fact the article says just the opposite. A properly anchored long barrel can be very accurate. Also I think Dan Lilja is actually speaking of bench rest rifles not hunting barrels. 1/4" at 200 yards is a bunch to those guys. If I wanted increased velociy capablility and loved the look of a long barrel I wouldn't hesitate to get one. I think the expertise of the gunsmith is much more cirtical to accuracy than barrel length

[smokeless77]

Thanks Sag, I'am in the process of ordering a barrel from krieger. It has been one month. I asked them the same questions i asked you, i'am still wating on some answers back from krieger.

DBinNY ,I hear you there harley has a real nice shooting rifle

[jims]

Smokeless77: I do not know if you are writing, emailing Krieger or what but I had the best luck when I called them on the phone.

[smokeless77]

Jims, I was talking to them on the phone. I sent them my barrel 3 -4 weeks ago to copy so they can make me another one. Last i heard krieger himself was looking at it, and was getting back to me when he figured out twist, land's, length, etc.

[edge]

When I had my barrel made John worked on all of the big bore stuff himself. IIRC, I ordered my barrel in the end of January and I think that I got it in the end of June....but Krieger does great work...and you can get almost any twist or bore size since they are cut rifled barrels.

edge.

[smokeless77]

Edge, he did tell me it was going to be about 5 months, but at least i can get my other barrel back and have something to shoot.

John