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Post by ozark on Nov 19, 2009 13:26:16 GMT -5
I elected to start a new thread here because I didn't want anyone to be offended by my remarks. Over and over, we get questions about improving the Savage Smokeless accuracy. Hours and hours are spent working up loads that provides the best groups. Millions of rounds are shot through paper using supports such as sand bags, lead sleds, Bench Master and other items to steady the rifle and dampen recoil. We read of many different modifications, barrel changes, duplex loads, high dollar scopes and the variety of bullets are awesome. Seldom if ever do we hear shooters seeking advice on how to improve their marksmanship skills. Not always, but very often the shooter is the weakest link in the chain of accuracy. Take away the lead sled and other supporting gadgets and many shooters are very weak in using the basic fundamentals and techniques of accurate shooting. For the newbies let me introduce myself. For eleven years I competed shoulder to shoulder against and with the best shooters in America. I was full time dealing with accuracy, teaching and evaluating shooters. From this exposure and experience I learned that great shooters are not natural, but are trained. I have seen students go from being a tyro to distinguished in one season. With that said, I want to get to the real purpose of this post. Helping others enjoy the confidence of knowing before they see the dead animal exactly where the bullet entered. If shooters spent half the time working on fundmentals and shooting techniques as they do working up loads and making modifications to their rifles they would accomplish more. Many out of the box rifles will shoot better than the shooter who holds it. Even the lead sled or other fixtures doesn't insure accuracy in the hands of a weak shooter. I call a good shooter a marksman who can hit an 8 inch paper plate at 100 yards offhand from the standing position consistently. A master or distinguished shooter that has practiced recently will put ten shots in a six inch paper plate consistently at that range. In the tips and hints section there is a lesson bY 'THE RIFLEMAN' clearly describing the techniques of offhand shooting. His lesson is dead on the money and that technique has led weak offhand shooters to top notch shooterss. There is no need for me to type that lesson now as I would be simply repeating what Rifleman expalined clearly. I will add what I feel is a fact that cannot be bypassed. If you learn to shoot good or great offhand then the other positions will be gravy. Shooting at longer ranges brings to the forefront doping the wind and learning to handle various light conditions but the basics are yours to use if you can master offhand. A word on practice. Practice can be good or it can be bad. Practice can ingrain bad techniques and violate sound fundamentals. It can make very poor techniques seem normal and right. What are the lessons one needs to master? Body position, how to hold the rifle, how tight to hold the rifle, how to shoulder and cheek the rifle, how to position the trigger hand, how to control your breathing, how to aim and how to manipulate the trigger. And finally how to follow through and call your shot. If you get these techniques down pat then confidence will steady your nerves and amazing accuracy will result. Learning to shoot to your potential level is a very interesting and rewarding journey. There are sound advice on the internet and you can teach yourself the fundamentals and techniques. You can practice sound techniques rather than go with what appears natural to you. What is my objective here? It is to point out that a poor shooter will forever be a poor shooter unless he/she develops the sound and proven techniques. It is to point out that there are books, pamplets and guides to accurate shooting on the internet. It is to point out that an ounce of good training is worth more than a bushel of random practice. Good luck and anyone who has a specific question can PM me and I will be happy to answer it with the method the best use. I don't know where this belongs and I am a moderator. Better shooter than moderator however. Ozark
PS: I left out an important element and will add it here. Others are welcome to add other things I have omitted. Relaxing after you stop your breathing is vital. Relax from the neck down. especially the shoulders and torso. During the relaxing process which takes only a couple seconds I open my mouth to make sure that my teeth are not in contact. This relaxes the jaw muscles and decreases the chance of them clenching or tightening up to disturb the sight alignment.
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Post by whelenman on Nov 19, 2009 17:51:16 GMT -5
Everything the same every time......same grip...same shoulder contact....same cheek weld.....same eye position.....same trigger contact.....same trigger pull....even same loading technique on loading. Everything the same equals everything the same on target. Lots of folks assume that because they buy a rifle with a specific MOA guarantee that they will shoot that MOA and then blame the rifle when they don't shoot that way after a whole few minutes of practice. Find what works for you and do it the same.....Every time! Good helpful post Ozark!
Since the stroke my steadiness on my hindfeet isn't what it used to be and I have to make up for it in other ways to steady the rifle. Know your limitations and adjust.
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Post by ozark on Nov 19, 2009 18:02:55 GMT -5
Good points whelenman. I keep forgeting that here we have the young, the old, the handicapped and the weak. I suppose that stems from all my work was with able bodied soldiers. Circumstances always alters the norm.
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Post by spaniel on Nov 19, 2009 18:14:05 GMT -5
Agree in principle, which is why when people start asking about gear/tweaks/loads for 300 yds I hesitate because without knowing that the nut behind the butt is in order I am leery of giving them the tools to think their equipment makes them capable of it.
I will note, however, that proficiency offhand means little if field shots are never taken that way. I take 80% of my shots at game prone off a bipod, 10% sitting off a bipod, and probably only 10% unsupported. No, my offhand is not as good as it was when I was a competitive shooter, but I always use the best support available so it doesn't have to be. But I practice so that my prone/bipod shooting is now BETTER than off a bench.
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Post by ozark on Nov 19, 2009 18:55:29 GMT -5
Spaniel, I didn't mean that hunters should shoot offhand while hunting. I believe that by learning to shoot accurately offhand that you are automatically preparing yourself to be a better shot using a support of any kind. I agree with you doing it your way. You mentioned comptitive shooting. Please share. I always feel a bond with experienced competitive shooters. Thanks.
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Post by DHinMN on Nov 19, 2009 19:18:05 GMT -5
I've often thought that a person should rely on good positions shooting rather than carry around sticks and bipods. I learned position shooting in the military and the use of the loop and hasty sling. Was also on a small bore rifle team that used these positions. Outside the military I don't know where the average shooter is really going to learn these positions. I believe most don't know that a sling can be used as a shooting aid rather than just carrying strap. But carrying straps are about all you find out there these days. When I used to do a lot of hunting for Jack rabbits and fox, if I got a shot at a stationary target lots of time I'd drop down in a sitting position, slip my arm in the sling, and shoot. I had and still have something called a Whelen sling (named after Col. Townsend Whelen) that worked really well for that. I have a Harris bipod but I seldom put it on because it seems like I spend too much fiddiling with it trying to get it set up on uneven ground. When the kids come home to go deer hunting, after we check the zero off the bench, I like to set up a cardboard deer silhouette and have them shoot at that in positions that they may use in hunting. I think shooting at a silhouette can boost confidence in their skill or show where improvement is needed. DH
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Post by ozark on Nov 19, 2009 19:45:51 GMT -5
DHinMN, Very good post. I used a sling in the military arm loop style as long as I could hunt in the normal fashion. Now that I am handicapped I shoot with the forearm resting on a padded shooting shack window, Even so, I apply all the principals of holding, cheeking, breathing, relaxing and trigger control and followthrough I mentioned. I love competition. The past two years we have conducted an egg shoot requiring one to crack four eggs in four shots at 100 yards as quickly as possible. I have won a 2nd and a 3rd place but I am the only one who has cracked all four eggs each year. Since I am past 82 years of age I get a lot of respect and recognition, Some jokeingly say I should not be allowed to enter because I shot as a professional for a few years. It is a great fun event. It is my range and I get a lot of volunteer help with the event. This year we roasted a whole pig. Back to shooting, It isn't hard to hit an egg at 100 yards. It is also easy to miss one unless the fundamentals of shooting are applied.
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Post by squirrelhawker on Nov 20, 2009 5:39:13 GMT -5
DHinMN, Very good post. I used a sling in the military arm loop style as long as I could hunt in the normal fashion. Now that I am handicapped I shoot with the forearm resting on a padded shooting shack window, Even so, I apply all the principals of holding, cheeking, breathing, relaxing and trigger control and followthrough I mentioned. I love competition. The past two years we have conducted an egg shoot requiring one to crack four eggs in four shots at 100 yards as quickly as possible. I have won a 2nd and a 3rd place but I am the only one who has cracked all four eggs each year. Since I am past 82 years of age I get a lot of respect and recognition, Some jokeingly say I should not be allowed to enter because I shot as a professional for a few years. It is a great fun event. It is my range and I get a lot of volunteer help with the event. This year we roasted a whole pig. Back to shooting, It isn't hard to hit an egg at 100 yards. It is also easy to miss one unless the fundamentals of shooting are applied. Ozark, You started a great thread topic! As far as offhand shooting...I know I am not too good ! . I should work on that. As a hunter..whether ground hogging or deer..I always have had a way to steady my shots. Bipods...etc. from the tree stand seated--elbows on the knees has served me well...usually. You bring up a good point about guys looking at everything but their shooting techniques when they cant get a gun to group. I know if I have not shot for a while..even from a bench..my technique gets sloppy. Takes me a few shots to get settled in. I picked up stuff over the last 25 yrs. or so shooting/reloading. It would have been nice to have someone such as yourself to learn from ! Thanks for sharing.
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Post by pposey on Nov 20, 2009 7:50:52 GMT -5
Practice how you hunt,,,,,,,,, all I can add
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Post by ozark on Nov 20, 2009 15:20:05 GMT -5
I agree with practicing from the positions which you may use while hunting. That is if you practice the correct fundamentals of breathing, relaxing, cheeking, shouldering and trigger control. Regardless of position used the basics of sound shooting principals are necessary if accuracy is to be achieved.
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Post by bigmoose on Nov 20, 2009 17:48:47 GMT -5
Ozark, At one time offhand with iron sights, was my road game. Now scopes and bi-pods [shooting sticks] keep me in the game, without them, I would have to quit hunting, I would never go into the field, knowing that maybe I could make the shot, my proudest accomplishment as a hunter is in my 53 years, I have never lost a animal, I shot at. That is the reason, I'm at the range ever week, with my shooting sticks, I can still put 5 shoots in a three inch group. I wish I could still be a peep sight hunter, but, alas, those days and gone forever. Have a fine weekend
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Post by Richard on Nov 20, 2009 18:06:49 GMT -5
Ozark............That is a very good post. I whole heartedly agree with what you have to say. There is however a point I would like to differ slightly on. You talk about all the different rests, load development and shooting a bunch of rounds. Hear me out? All that breathing and trigger control and all those other fine points of shooting accurately are all for naught if the gun is inaccurate, right? Carlos Hathcock couldn't hit a bull in the butt if he was shooting a rifle that was not of the finest accuracy. This means putting the right barrel on the right trued up action, bedded in a good stock with a good scope and light trigger and the best load worked up, right? NOW, once he has spent the time on his benchrest quality rest/lead sled/benchmaster or whatever, then he can go ahead and practice all of the points you listed. If the rifle is not accurate, all the breath control and trigger squeeze "ain't worth a pinch of manure!" Bench time is the prelude to good field shooting! Richard
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Post by bigmoose on Nov 20, 2009 18:41:36 GMT -5
Richard,
I agree ;D
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Post by DHinMN on Nov 20, 2009 18:54:33 GMT -5
I didn't mean to bash anybody who uses the sticks or bipods. Under certain conditions I will use them too. I kind of get a kick out of these African safari shows where the Guide has his tracker to bring up the sticks and the client uses them in the tall grass to make the shot on dangerous game. I guess I was there I'd say "yeah, bring em up." Not the time for a misplaced shot. DH
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Post by ozark on Nov 20, 2009 19:04:21 GMT -5
You are as right as rain Richard. The inherent accuracy of the rifle, the skill of the shooter and the load or ammunition used combines to provide the results. One component out of whack will spoil the whole effort. Fortunately, I was involved in all but the ammunition. We were provided with Match Grade ammo. We keep reading questions about what to expect in out of the box accuracy or with certain loads. It bothers me that we have no idea how skilled the shooter is. Obviously you and several others I could name are skilled marksman. However, we know that on average only one out of ten average hunters are truly skilled shooters. Our last two egg shoots have exposed a lot of weaknesses in our deer hunters. It has opened some eyes regarding the self evaluation of several. Several have come to me hoping to get a dose of improvement. I have been told that the egg shoot has inspired several to learn to shoot after years of believing they could. A friend of mine that served with me (From Rock Island, IL.) on the marksmanship team brought his Match Grade Service 45 and after putting six empty coke cans on the fifty yard target frame shot them off using the ten second timed fire sequence. One guy said: "I want that man as a friend, as an enemy he would be my worst nightmare." I think it is wonderful that we have this forum to share our opinions, experience and interests. We sometimes misunderstand the meanings of what is written and we sometimes disagree. But we have associated with eachother enough that we know each other pretty much in depth. I do a lot of writing but I can honestly say that noone here has shown me any disrespect or attempted to insult me. I love the forum and the forum consists of its members. It sure beats being in a nursing home with nasty old people my age. LOL.
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Post by Richard on Nov 20, 2009 19:10:47 GMT -5
Well said Ozark! And keep supplying us with your wisdom. Richard
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Post by bigmoose on Nov 20, 2009 19:47:08 GMT -5
DHinMn, I carry my own sticks. although if I had a stick bearer that would be fine
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Post by spaniel on Nov 21, 2009 9:02:46 GMT -5
Ozark, I shot 3-position smallbore in college. I really do not have the temperment for several straight hours of trying to shoot perfect but I did ok, I think my team was 4th or 5th in the nation one year. I do miss all that practice time though, when I now shoot offhand/kneeling I can tell I don't have the muscle control I did when I put a brick downrange every few weeks.
Regarding sticks/bipods, I get a chuckle with the african hunting shows. That looks more like walking around and shooting stuff to me. But I'm the type of guy who doesn't feel right if I'm not doing the scouting and tracking myself.
However, I now had a tall Harris bipod on my gun whenever I hunt and plan to shoot over 100 yds. I feel I have the obligation to take the best rest possible, be it natural or artificial.
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Post by bigmoose on Nov 21, 2009 10:29:07 GMT -5
Citizens of South Africa, are free to hunt without guides, They can scout and track themselfs, not long ago, a friend told about two such gents, that tracked up on a herd of buffalo, one had a 300 H&H, the other a 30.06. It didn't work out well [for the hunters that is] one dead at the scene, the other made it to the hospital, but only that far. I have a friend that has taken all big game in No. America, except Polar Bear, He went to Africa on a Buffalo hunt, he said, he never realized what hunting was till that trip, your rifle gave you the upper hand but only to a certain degree. Creeping up on a Buffalo, was all the TV show project and much more. He came back knowing he was truly a hunter.
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Post by whelenman on Nov 22, 2009 9:36:41 GMT -5
I love the forum and the forum consists of its members. It sure beats being in a nursing home with nasty old people my age. LOL. LOL Ozark. Just remember all those nasty old people your age didn't get that way because of their age. They started out as nasty young people!
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Post by ozark on Nov 22, 2009 10:13:51 GMT -5
We don't quit playing because we get old. We get old because we quit playing. I have always enjoyed the aroma of perfume more than that of BENGAY. oops, this will get moved to the romance section which is visable only to moderaters. Even the Administrators can't go there.
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