BH209 & rusty barrels, a costly reality

artjr338wm thanks for heads up. This is the second time that I read about BH209 and rust. I was definitely under the impression that I did not need to worry about corrosion with BH209. Considering the price and that it is corrosive I will be sticking with Swiss black powder.

from the buckhorn web sight

Blackhorn 209 is noncorrosive and virtually free of solid residue. Only a thin film of soot remains in the barrel, which will not harm your muzzleloader. There is no need to clean your barrel immediately after use. However, as with all firearms, we recommend using at least one wet patch of solvent after shooting to protect your barrel from moisture.

but if you click on down load brochure this is what it says so you might have a case!http://www.blackhorn209.com/files/pdf/brochure.pdf

Immediate Cleaning Not Necessary
Blackhorn 209 is noncorrosive and virtually free of solid
residue so there is no need to clean your barrel immediately
after use. Only a thin film of soot remains in the barrel, which
DOES NOT absorb moisture or harm your muzzleloader

rogo
You must be reading a different jug than i have.I even looked on the bottom.Billy

artjr338wm


I am sorry for your situation.





I have used BH209 since it was available, with no sign of rust at all. I use a SS Knight Disc Elite. Left it fouled for the entire Nebraska season, from sight-in in early November-Jan 31. NEVER cleaned it. Shot 5 deer. Left it loaded in the garage for 2weeks in a cheap walmart plastic gun case. Fired it into a doe at 45yards. Finally cleaned some time in Feb.....Not a speck of rust=mirror bore.

I've been out to the range this year(Sep-14). Fired about 25 shots. Haven't cleaned it yet....it's still in the cheap old gun case in my garage. And I'm not the least bit worried about it.

I don't own a gun safe or dehumidifier.

For me, BH209 is just the same as smokeless powder, Non-Corrosive. The extremely light residue left in the bore does Not attract moisture at all.

frontiergander, yes as amatter of fact we had to order a Bergara barrel as they were the only ones in stock. Tell me why you seem to think bergara barrels are of such high quality? I know nothing of them, but I know Europe has w well earned rep for making good firearms like my XDs.

Lanenebraska,
My friends gun safe is stored in his 100% finished basement that is climate controlled ( dehumidifier on 7/24 4hrs on 4hrs off and is kept at a low humidity below 30%. He also owns over a dozen long guns, all in blued steel, and never has had any of them rust in the past. All I can tell you is exactly what I saw. Do you think it possible your ML is SS is a factor as my friends Encore was blued steel.

Judging from all that I have been reading about BH209 and rusting, your experience would seem to be the exception to the rule. Is there anything you can think of that you do or have done to your MLs different that might be a factor in you having no rusting problems?

Thanks for the info:
I'm a bit amazed that the rust appeared so soon. I've shot nothing but BH209 out of my Triumph and have cleaned it with only Dove soap mixed with hot water and plunged it. I then dried it with clean patches...broke it open and allowed it to dry thoroughly. (Knock on wood) I've shot it in cold weather this spring, during downpours of rain, so bad that I waited a day to shoot it and clean it.
I even popped out the primer and left it sit-after opening the case for two-days till I could get out and hunt with it again. Since it's going to sit for a week, I did clean it with T/C's bore cleaner and cased it without the breech plug.
Keep us updated, cause I love the stuff! Still have me scratching my head on this one. I've had it out in weather that ranged from the 40's into the high 90's and it hasn't failed me yet.
Sorry to hear about all the problems.
Have a great day!
Dave

Western Powders has changed their stance somewhat on BH-209 and corrosion. The powder itself is not the problem the soot left in the barrel can be.

This is the label on the new bottles of BH-209 stating the new policy...



In a recent email from Western Powders they indicated the same thing and said the labels have been changed to reflect their findings....

General thoughts/information

If you call Western they will attest to this problem and from the information I got from them it is not being restricted just to blued guns in their instructions.

They have been seeing and hearing about this problem for several months now and have modified their instructions on the new bottles and their instructions at Western to notify people that this problem can happen if exposed to the right circumstances.

Don @ Western had a very detailed email that verified findings that the residule soot left by BH in the bore could attract moisture and in any unprotected bore is suseptible to rusting if moisture is being collected.

He did not give or estimate a 'time' that it might take to see these problems and I got the feeling it was happening in only a small number of cases, but as the popularity of BH increases those random cases will rise. The complaints and cases they have seen and recieved are a concern to them.

Also remember the the active ingredient in BH is not Nitrocellulose as in normal smokeless powders it is Nitrate ester.

He emphasized again the powder by itself is not corrosive.

And for my part - I think the powder is a great product, just to expensive for me to do much shooting with. And I would certainly follow Westerns new instructions if I were using it.

rogo

Here is what you are talking about....



I am sure this has been difficult for Western Powders but I am glad they are trying to rectify the perception...

Grouse, this is the only cleaning information that apeares on both mine and my friends jug of BH209:

Quote:
"RECOMMENDED CLEANING:When using Blackhorn 209 it is not necessary to clean your barrel immediately after use. Blackhorn will not cause corrosion like black powder and other substitutes. residue is easily removed with standard, non-water based cleaning solvents. We recommend BH209 Solvent by Montana X-tream
End Quote.

The newer jugs, ones you most likely have, recommend swabing asap after you finish shooting, ours as you can read did not.

Grouse, please reread my above post that contains the quote I listed in this post for a better understanding of my thoughts on this issue.

Regards,
Arthur.

Here's a post I wrote in MM back in December of 2008 concerning my experience with Blackhorn and barrel pitting.
The burn't powder residue will cause pitting if left in your barrel.
Zen
www.modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=11232&highlight=pitting

I have bottles of Blackhorn that are labeled both ways.

DC

You may want to run a tight fitting jag od brush with JB's and brush the crap out iof it. It may help with the accuracy but will never completly remove the pitting. I got a barrel once that a friend brought over for me to clean that was left uncleaned for a year. When I looked in that barrel I almost#@$% the worst I ever saw I used the afore mentioned method and it came clean but pitting was still there. Took it out and shot it. I was amazed it still shot quite good for a CVA (JUNK) So you may want to try it. What have you got to loose. You would think a compamy would put out some sort of notice after they found out they had a problem? Sill with any powder and BH-209 I still clean my barrel with each shot just before finishing sighting in to insure I don't have these sort of problems if I have to let it sit a day or two. Lou

It wasn't all that long ago that Triple Se7en was loudly touted as non-corrosive, or so close to non-corrosive that it is essentially non-corrosive. Even Sam Fadala reported this, and used "non-corrosive" in his headline: findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_7_48/ai_87413404/.

Most people understand that Triple Se7en is water-soluble, and anything that "cleans up with just water" is likely to be excessively hygroscopic. Though very few people understand what Triple Se7en actually made of, even less people seem to care. All the ads that tout T7 as non-corrosive or low corrosive have long ago vanished, with the “water-only clean-up” remaining. Even though, BlackMag3 and American Pioneer are both easier to clean than T7, and neither has the crud ring / stuck breechplug slag that T7 is associated with. There are, of course, other problems—with APP / Shockey’s Gold being horribly inconsistent, and severe QC, production, and availability problems with Black Mag 3.

Muzzleloading has been afflicted with all kinds of odd claims over the years, like the idea that “Bore Butter” can season a barrel. Enough barrels have been ruined with “all-natural” bore butter so that now most people know better. It is actually “Udder Balm,” used on cows with sore teats. It is cheap, though, and the “pine-fresh scent” apparently makes Pyrodex smell good? The whole “natural approach” may sound good, until you realize that oil itself is natural. I suppose if you bury a brontosaurus in your back yard and wait hundreds of thousands of years you’ll have “sweet crude.”

Water is nasty stuff—it sinks ships, people drown in it, it rusts cars and most things made of metal. We have no problem using paint, though, or washing dirt off our automobiles. We clean our pistols, rifles, and shotguns after use, but somehow with muzzleloaders we want to cheat the system. Carbon steel rusts, and though we all admire “bluing” we forget what bluing really is: pretty rust. There is red oxide and black oxide, our pre-oxided carbon steel barrels are coated with the cosmetically superior form of rust.

There really isn’t much excuse not to run a patch of Hoppe’s or Breakfree down a barrel that we claim to value. It takes only a few moments, and there is no water left to dry out or evaporate that we need to get out only so we can properly oil it and protect it. Stainless steel can certainly rust as well. Water heaters can rust through as well, and if there was ever an appliance designed to be used with water it would be a water heater.

All anyone has to do is go to the gunshop and look at some used guns—you’ll find all kinds of rust, rust from using “non-corrosive” propellants and primers. There really is no such thing, that’s a term of art. Non-corrosive primers are corrosive, and so are the combustion by-products of all firearm propellants to a certain extent.

Any residue in bores that is at all hygroscopic may have a corrosive effect. There is moisture content in all propellants, smokeless or otherwise. It’s not good to leave any propellant exposed to the air, even before it is burned—for that reason, reloaders put remaining powder right back in the bottle.

I’m old enough and dumb enough to have rusted my fair share of things over the years. Too soon we grow old, too late we get smart. I like Blackhorn 209; I appreciate how consistent it is and that it is far, far less hygroscopic than other BP subs, it has an indefinite shelf life, doesn’t stick breechplugs or form crud rings. The days of cotton mouth from licking patches and breaking through fouling crud to be able to seat a sabot are long gone. But, I’m not about to consider any propellant the equivalent of gun oil or a proper bore protectant. Like another poster said, no firearms manufacturer instructs you not to clean your gun, nor does any propellant manufacturer.

It isn’t that tough to run a patch of Hoppe’s down your bore when you are through shooting. After all, you are likely using the same rod that is already in your hand that you were going to seat your next sabot with. Do not pour powder into barrel, do not seat sabot, sub oily patch for sabot and clean barrel is something even I can understand.

And, I’m not that bright, possessing the brain activity slightly above that of an amoeba, with an EEG that looks like a dial tone. If someone as amazingly sea-slug stupid as myself can learn how to run a Hoppe’s patch up and down a muzzleloader, than I believe most anyone else can as well.