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Post by whyohe on Oct 21, 2009 16:19:21 GMT -5
actually i think randy and reloader both have good points. I'm a skeptic and don't trust advertising much. even when T-7 first came out there was NO WAY i was washing it out with water. water and metal just doesn't make sense.
now but when they tout that you don't have to clean right away that IS OR WAS a big selling point. and it didn't live up to their claims and they should make good on their error. look at auto manufacturers that have to recall cars cause it didn't perform as advertised. look at how savage and Sims recoil pads customer service is. it would be nice if they where like that but we all know not all companies are like this. I personally have not used BH209 but i don't let a gun sit for mare than a day or 2 with out cleaning just because of a chance of rust. YES i have rusted the barrel of a gun. it was my own fault. i took too many guns out shooting and i thought i cleaned it but i didn't. it was Mosin Naggant 91/30 that i was shooting old shells threw and in 1 week the barrel looked fuzzy. Ironically it still shoots good? but that was a lesson for me and i learned. fortunately i didn't pay dearly cause i only paid 100 bucks for the gun.
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Post by randywakeman on Oct 22, 2009 1:44:10 GMT -5
Just a cry of “bs” doesn’t exactly represent the matter at all. There was a huge amount of development and testing long before Blackhorn 209 ever hit the market. The international patent was applied for back in 2006. General Dynamics did their own extensive testing, with no corrosion issues. Since then, Barnes Bullets, MMP sabots, Thompson, Savage Arms have all tested it—with no reported corrosion issues or concerns. The late Ian McMurchy tested it; in fact Tony Knight evaluated it as well—with no issues. By now, I’ve used it extensively in at least fifteen different muzzleloaders—no issues. I’ve not tried to cause rust, but I did intentionally leave three muzzleloaders untouched after heavy firing with Blackhorn 209 for well over a month: a Knight KP1, a T/C Omega Z5, and a Knight Shadow. Both the Omega and the Knight Shadow had carbon steel barrels. They weren’t in a basement, in the garage, or abandoned out in a shed somewhere, to be sure—they were indoors, and not in a high humidity environment. Nevertheless there was no sign of any corrosion. Actually, I was kind of hoping that the Knight Shadow would rust to pieces, but that’s a different story. Nevertheless, it didn’t have any light bore rust much less pits. All the prior testing before Blackhorn 209 came out never resulted in a rusty barrel. Western Powders put several well-fouled muzzleloaders in their “humidity room” for months. After a few weeks, nothing. After a month, nothing. After two months, nothing. Finally, after three solid months in the humidity chamber they got a little minor surface rust on one or two of the rifles—nothing remotely approaching heavy rust, much less pitting. After all this time, effort, and development and independent testing that verified what was already established and well-documented, to just casually write everything off as “just BS” has no basis at all. I doubt that Western Powders ever dreamed that “non-corrosive” and “no immediate cleaning required” would be interpreted as a recommendation to not clean a muzzleloader, or to not pay reasonable attention to humid conditions, and so forth that can rot any unprotected metal without further help from anything at all. Western Powders did establish that Blackhorn 209 was not nearly as hygroscopic as Triple Se7en, much less Pyrodex, seized no breechplugs, made no hard slag-like crud ring, and required no time-consuming or clumsy spit-patching from shot to shot. It has never been “residue free” and “no immediate cleaning” has been on every piece of literature I’ve ever seen associated with the powder. At the same time, it seems to me that Western Powder has been very clear that you don’t use water-based solvents to clean it, and that you need to avoid gimmicky “muzzleloading 209 primers,” using only full strength shotshell 209 primers with efficient breechplugs that flow properly, not just letting a 209 spew its gunk in the general direction of a nipple. This may not be a McDonald’s “hot coffee moment,” but it sure seems close. Maybe Western Powders should follow with Hodgdon-esque type language: “Not an explosive, but may explode. Not smokeless powder, but classified as such.” They should likely add “for external use only,” do not play in or around, consult your physician before using, ask a qualified gunsmith if it is right for you, not to be used by nursing mothers, and may cause sudden death to large antlered game animals when used as directed. It would take quite a great conspiracy theory to come up with collusion and deception perpetrated by General Dynamics, Barnes Bullets, MMP sabots, Thompson / Center Arms, Savage Arms, Ian McMurchy, Tony Knight and Western Powders. In order to reasonably caution about something, it just makes sense to me that it has to be something that is reproducible. Otherwise, we need to start making an awful lot of paper, as in “Contraindications for Use”—where all the contraindications for aspirin becomes quite a read. Apparently, Western Powders has already quickly responded with a change on the label, even though years of testing failed to reveal any issues. I’d expect Western Powders to eventually just give up, understanding that they cannot possibly control the metallurgy of muzzleloaders, the infinite types of ambient conditions, and all the stuff that people are still going to use like moose milk, bore butter, and whatever might be left over from last year. For those looking to rot a barrel, Pyrodex would be my recommendation, and if you want to stick a breechplug, Triple Se7en is as good as anything. Anyway, I have no explanation. Obviously, the reason Arthur recommended Blackhorn 209 in the first place to his friend was that he liked its performance, and did not have any corrosion problems that he could see or predict. Yes, I agree with Reloader—Sims has great customer service. By now, there are countless Blackhorn 209 shooters out there. Reviews are everywhere, like Cabela’s reviews.cabelas.com/8815/216725/reviews.htm and Midway USA: www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=820615 . Surely, if corrosion was of concern it would be all over the place. I understand when all else fails read the instructions, etc., but you’ll note that most of the problems are from those that can’t be bothered, like the opening Knight KP-1 comment. It won’t be long until you hear “complaints” about BH209 not working well with #11 or musket caps, even though Western Powders has gone to extremely great lengths to discourage it. Though boring, it is never a bad idea to run a Breakfree CLP patch down the bore of a muzzleloader using Blackhorn 209. Most folks won’t know what to do with all the patches they have anyway, if they are used to spit-patching Pyrodex or T7. It used to be, 100 – 200 patches for every 100 shots was standard fare. Now, just using one after you are through shooting is too inconvenient? We must be hard to please.
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Post by bteague on Oct 22, 2009 6:52:32 GMT -5
Randy. i left my knight for less than a week.In side my air conditioned home.i know i should have cleaned my gun.But after reading all the rave reviews given by people like you.And the members on this board and others.I was shocked when i looked down the barrel.Black powder could not have none a better job of rusting my barrel.Billy
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Post by randywakeman on Oct 22, 2009 13:22:29 GMT -5
At the end of the day, I think we all know better. Even Arthur posted a little while back: "Reloader, thanks for the heads up. I am a huge fan of BH209, but as a rule with out exception when shooting ANY BP SUB, I always instantly after my last shot of the day is taken remove the B-plug drop it in a jar of Big Ed's Red and then run a patch heavily soaked with Break-free up and down the bore until I feel it is well coated to prevent any rust from forming."
That's just good advice. We all know that dirt can attract moisture, and we all know that stainless steel barrels are more forgiving than carbon steel. No news there. Perhaps if Knight knew how to make muzzleloaders that people actually wanted, they'd still be in business? We all know an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. If someone says their gun has rusted, sure-- I believe them. All I can say is that it is not easily reproducible and I personally have not seen any indications of it.
Hodgdon has always been the king of disclaimers and general horse manure. Western Powders would be better off going the Hodgdon route.
Did you know that Hodgdon does not try to make money? Apparently, they just sell their stuff to "honor the Lord." You can read it on their website: "In doing so, we will deal with integrity and honesty, reflecting that people are more important than dollars and that our purpose is to bring credit to our Lord Jesus Christ." Whether Benny Hinn or Hodgdon powder is a better place to send your money I can't answer.
Read this on Hodgdon's site:
Hodgdon® Powder, IMR® Powder and Winchester® Powder expressly disclaim any and all warranties with respect to any and all products sold or distributed by them, the safety or suitability thereof, or the results obtained including, without limitation, any implied warranty of merchantability or fitness for a particular purpose and/or any other warranty. Buyers and users assume all risk, responsibility and liability whatsoever for any and all injuries (including death), losses or damages to persons or property (including consequential damages), arising from the use of any product or data, whether or not occasioned by seller’s negligence or based on strict liability or principles of indemnity or contribution.
Words mean things, or they are supposed to. When you "agree" to stuff like this (Buyers and users assume all risk, responsibility and liability whatsoever for any and all injuries (including death), losses or damages to persons or property (including consequential damages), arising from the use of any product or data, whether or not occasioned by seller’s negligence) it doesn't take much reading skills to learn that whatever you do with the stuff, you're on your own.
Even if it is "seller's negligence," you are on your own. Property damage, on your own. Kill yourself, on your own. I'm just glad that people buy "Jesus pellets" instead of squandering their money on food, shelter, feeding the hungry, or other luxuries.
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Post by bteague on Oct 22, 2009 15:55:28 GMT -5
Randy i geuss im missing your point>
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Post by randywakeman on Oct 22, 2009 16:58:29 GMT -5
Easy to do, as once in a while I go off on little tangents with tongue in cheek. No cover charge, though. "When in doubt, clean it out" is good advice. Western Powders has done a very, very thorough cycle of R & D, so I can't fault them for not reporting what they haven't seen or have been able to find. I suspect that the reason is a perfect storm of carbon steel, humidity-- and with certain breechplugs (Knight) chaotic, incomplete, random partial combustion the leaves behind far more residue than would be possible with a hot breechplug and tight sabot. I don't know this as a fact, but that's a guess. Powerbelts packed with Crisco or bore butter don't offer anything remotely close to what a proper fitting sabot can do. A Breakfree patch and the rare, non-reproducible issue goes away. As WP has already changed packaging to address the few events they have been told about, the issue was really over with before this thread started.
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Post by bteague on Oct 22, 2009 17:58:12 GMT -5
artjr338wm pm sent
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Post by randywakeman on Oct 24, 2009 15:06:26 GMT -5
Blackhorn 209 is a quantum leap ahead of Triple Se7en, to be sure. Nevertheless, anything that makes a lot of smoke is going to leave residue. Even though the residue may be inert and non-caustic, all residue will absorb some moisture.
I'm not a metallurgist, but I can tell you there is a huge difference between steels. Passivating steels are THE ticket for muzzleloaders that smoke. Most people don't use the term passivated steel, but that is what stainless steel is-- it has to be 11-12% or more chromium content to be considered stainless. What makes it work is that the chromium forms a thin, self-healing layer between the barrel and the atmosphere. It can't be seen, as it is only a few molecules thick. But, it is the self-renewing film (chromium oxide) that we can't see that makes stainless barrels the absolute way to go for muzzleloaders that smoke. With Blackhorn 209 and a 416 stainless barrel, you're in pretty good shape. We didn't clean our barrels on a recent bear hunt, but we DID shoot them out every night after hunting. A sabot is a scrubber, and that jettisons any 24 hour old fouling. Next day, fresh powder and sabot, and off to the woods again. If I had a carbon steel barrel, yes, I'd use a patch of Breakfree CLP everynight and fire a squib load as a fouling shot the next day. With stainless in pleasant weather like we had, I'd do just as we did. If the gun was going in / out of a warm vehicle in cold weather, or if caught in rain all day-- sure, I'd clean the barrel (and everything else) and use a fouling shot the next day.
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Post by KerryB on Oct 24, 2009 16:47:39 GMT -5
I had a buddy that bought a beautiful new T/C Encore muzzleloader with a stainless barrel and laminated thumbhole stock. Gorgeous........and it shot great! He used T7 pellets for his deer hunt and planned on cleaning the next day after season ended. Well, long story short, he forgot to clean it and several months later, he brought it to me and told me the story. We began to clean it and clean it and clean it. That barrel kept producing rusty patches, no matter which cleaner we used or how many times we ran it through. Finally i pulled out my borescope and took a look at the inside. It was totally pitted and in my opinion was ruined. I let him take a look and i thought he was going to vomit! The next time i talked to him, he had bought a brand new Savage 10MLII which i helped him sight in. I have never asked him what happened to the Encore, but i would have liked to know how it shot after the "incident"! ;D
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Post by davewolf on Oct 24, 2009 20:51:28 GMT -5
Interesting stuff. Every time I come here I learn something new. So Randy what is your take on my T/C's Triumphs Weathersheild. So far it has been out shooting groundhogs in 90 degree temps. It's been rained upon, it's been pelted with snow and sleet and I'm still cleaning it with Dove and hot water, by plunging it, then running dry patches through it and letting it sit open with the breech plug out.. I've used nothing but BH209, Shockwave 250's and CCI M primers, and it still is clean as the day I bought it. I did take my first whitetail with it during the inline season and it did hit exactly where I aimed. I never fire primers or fouling shots. Have a great day! Dave
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Post by grouse on Oct 24, 2009 22:12:31 GMT -5
It's been rained upon, it's been pelted with snow and sleet and I'm still cleaning it with Dove and hot water, by plunging it, then running dry patches through it and letting it sit open with the breech plug out.. Dave Why in the world are you cleaning BH209 with water?
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Post by randywakeman on Oct 24, 2009 23:42:32 GMT -5
Interesting stuff. Every time I come here I learn something new. So Randy what is your take on my T/C's Triumphs Weathersheild. I still have a Triumph with "Weathershield." There is no "problem" with it, but any exterior coating is just that. The exterior of a muzzleloader (or most any firearm) is very easy to see, monitor, access, and wipe down and protect. It is of no benefit at all to the part of the barrel where problems arise: the bore. It is still a carbon steel barrel, no better or worse than many others. Weathershield does nothing to protect your bore. Neither does Black Ice or any number of camo dips-- they are all just external coatings.
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Post by davewolf on Oct 25, 2009 10:24:16 GMT -5
Grouse: I followed the instructions that came with the T/C and haven't set it aside after cleaning for more than a week after cleaning it. Have no problems thus far, but did purchase some Breakfree to work the bore over, now that inline season here has closed and I plan on storing the gun for a month. I continually have checked and rechecked the barrel and she's as clean as a whistle. Randy, thanks for the info....I'm like a sponge when gathering advice! Have a great day! Dave
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Post by sabotloader on Oct 25, 2009 11:32:14 GMT -5
davewolf
Just a couple of things I would like to mention. Cleaning a barrel with water, hot or cold will not harm steel, if you get it dry - which is not always the easiest thing to do.
I still clean my ML's using a boiling water treatment on occasions, not near as often as I use to but it does happen.
Even if I were using BH exclusively i would still on occasion clean with hot soapy water and rinsed with boiling water. The boiling water treatment is excellent for stripping oils, greases, and plastic residue from the bore. And maybe conversly to Randy's opinion, the hot treatment opens the pores of the bore and flushes them of residue. Treating the bore while it is hot or warm also helps get the treatment in the pores for lasting protection.
The best post and most factual post that Randy posted in this thread is his post discussing the Triumph. I believe all of his information that post was factual and not his personal belief.
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Post by davewolf on Oct 25, 2009 18:52:39 GMT -5
Thanks Sabotloader: I will continue to clean my Triumph with soapy hot water when I shoot it. And I dry it with by running patches through it until I feel no moisture--none. I for the first time, today cleaned the bore with Breakfree--and I really didn't pick up any extra dirt or rust, so although I will continue to use Breakfree on occassion...I plan to continue to plunge the barrel with hot water and Dove dish detergent (excellent for boiling skulls too). Of course I have used Rem oil on the exterior since I first bought it. I love BH209 and don't want to switch now! Thanks, Have a great day! Dave
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Post by fletch on Oct 27, 2009 6:07:15 GMT -5
I just ran into this thread and after reading it got concerned about my T/C omega with a stainless barrel. I have been shooting Blackhorn 209 almost since it came out. I normally shoot about 6 rounds just before hunting season. Reload and leave the gun loaded for about 2 months or if I shoot at an animal and just reload and keep hunting. I have seen no rust. What is see in the posts is that some have got rust while storing the gun in a approved environment. My question would be what is different. The only different thing I can think of is the primers. Could this be the cause of the rust?? I shoot a CCI primer (not M) because it is very clean and sometimes use a VariFlame adapter with cci small pistol primers for bench shooting.
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Post by randywakeman on Oct 28, 2009 7:29:33 GMT -5
Storing any muzzleloader loaded is not a good idea at all, even worse for a couple of months. No propellant improves once it leaves the bottle.
A muzzleloader is no powder vial. If you want to take the unnecessary risk of a misfire or barrel corrosion, that's up to you. Standard practice is to clear your gun at the end of the day, even a Savage 10ML-II.
Loading a muzzleloader only before you intend to use it is just common sense.
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orion
8 Pointer
Posts: 128
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Post by orion on Oct 28, 2009 8:50:23 GMT -5
This is an interesting post. It sounds like an occasional few get rusty barrels after shooting BH 209. I haven't tried it yet but am interested in trying it in the future. The people who have had the miss fortune of getting the rusted barrels all claim that they did nothing differen't than anyone else. One thing that may be the culprit is what is being used to clean the barrels and how much is left in the barrel before adding the powder (i.e. break free or other). I know from experiance, what one sees as an ample coating in a barrel is often way overkill. Maybe the victums are using an excessive amount and leaving a thick layer in the gun. They then shoot the gun and leave it un cleaned, the thick layer of whatever sucks water and you get rust.
I agree with RW. I never understood those that store their mz's with a load in it. The only excuss for this I can see, is if you are really broke or down on your luck and you can't afford extra ammo. Most of us waste more money on beer, snacks, pop, or nothing, than the cost of several more bullets and a few loads of powder. Trust me, I know many friends who do it and have done it for years with no problems. But every now and then I get a call to help someone clean their gun because bla bla bla ( they left it loaded after the season or after a rain storm or what ever), or it didn't fire when the big boy showed up.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2009 20:02:35 GMT -5
i'll stick with pyrodex rs in my Accura. At least if it rusts or pits, i'll be the one to blame.
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Post by jeremylong on Nov 2, 2009 19:07:13 GMT -5
I helped a buddy sight in his encore this weekend. He wanted to shoot it through my chrono. Well, we got it sighted in and to my surprise, there was only about 50fps difference between it and T7. Also it appeared dirtier than triple seven when swabbing it out after each shot. He always runs a wet patch followed by a dry and flips the dry over and one more time. He does this religiously after each shot. It consistantly took one more swab with the BH209. Now was that because of the wet patch? I dont know. This was my first experience with the stuff, but by no means did I see any noticeable improvement over T7. In fact, it was dirtier and the puff of smoke seemed about the same. We also loaded up some old pyrodex pellets and talk about smoke! Holy cow, now both T7 and BH209 was noticeably better than that. Given the convenience of pellets, I doubt that I would mess with the BH209 from what I seen. But, I wont shoot blackpowder subs unless its out of the flintlock ;D Smokeless all the way
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Post by blackhawk7204 on Nov 2, 2009 22:51:01 GMT -5
I'll say this about BH209, I can shoot and reload with tight fitting sabots many times without even swabbing once. Never could reload more than once without swabbing with anything else. And it will shoot with better accuracy than I ever got with any other sub.
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Post by davewolf on Nov 3, 2009 22:37:24 GMT -5
All I can say is I agree. Thus far I've had no problems with Blackhorn 209 and find it much more accurate in my Triumph then anything else I've tried. I've shot 17 shots without swabbing at the range. But did clean it as soon as I got home! Have a great day! Dave
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Post by stude283 on Dec 7, 2009 18:08:20 GMT -5
Has anyone given a thought as to residue from a previously used powder causing this rust in a few cases?After shooting t7 in my savage for the first few years and fighting with stuck breech plugs constantly, I finally went smokeless.It took at least 5 super thorough cleanings to get it to where the bore would stay rust free after storage periods.I really don't believe any cleaning method removes all traces of bp or subs after trying about all in the last 35 years of trying about every sub to come along and black powder throughout.Just a thought to explain the few cases where rust happened,yet others have no problems.
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Post by larryfox1 on Dec 8, 2009 19:39:16 GMT -5
Well i like/love BH 209.It is far far the best powder i have ever use, baring none.I clean my gun's when ever they are shot the very same day.It is only good common since for me to do so.Yes it is nice to know that when useing BH 209 that it might not have to be clean ever day after it was shot.But i'll not take any chance's on it are any powder not to rust my gun,i paid my hard earn money for them and i'll look after them as long as i got-em.Any one that does not look after there muzzleloader's like they should.Then it is there fault and there faulr alone,it they get rust.
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Post by ourway77 on Dec 11, 2009 9:43:10 GMT -5
I have fired BH-209 about 15 times w/o cleaning. Once I had the CH's were I wanted them out of dumb luck or call it what I have done with all ML'er propellants. I ran hoppes down thwe barrel and then several dry patches and a light patch of oil then dry patches again. I then loaded the BH-209 and again shot it to see if there was a change on POI. Yes it was so I readjusted my scope and the went through the same ritchual again and fired POI was perfect. So I do it all over again and when i go hunting fired a couple primers then load with BH-209. If I shoot I do the same again. After all the hooting and hollering over the kill and I put the rifle away. I clean it VG with hoppes and oil it very good and put it away. I will never have a problem such as descibed. Yes a pain in the arse, but it's woth it when shooting an expesive ML'er at todays prices Just my 2 cents lou
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