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Post by Richard on Oct 7, 2009 21:00:36 GMT -5
Well, spent last week up in NJ visiting the grandkids and made it to within a 1/2 mile of Edges house, but due to other commitments, could not make there. I'll try next trip Mark So, Herman, Bill and myself were back at it again yesterday. I did not shoot quite as much as usual as other guns needed attention. I just put a Pac-Nor .45 barrel on one of the members rifles and wanted to put a few (5) shots thru it. Two shots to get my scope (el cheapo Simmons 3x9 that comes with the Savage combo guns) on the bull and a three shot group. I used the 200 gr. XTP, Blue Harvester and 58 gr. of H-4198 for an average velocity of 2554 fps from the 25" barrel. No waiting, other than normal BS, between shots and no cool rod. Did my normal swabbing between shots. A 1.1" three shot group was had. Yes, it will shoot! I noticed there was a post about "Will a duplex with N-120 work? And RB advised against it. However, a couple of weeks ago, Edge and I had discussed using N-120 to reach 3,000 fps and I felt my 23" barrel could not digest enough to get there. Edge suggested a 70 gr. load but substituting 5744 as part of the load. So, I went with 5 gr. of 5744 under 65 gr. of N-120. Note: I had mentioned that 120 and H-4198 were of a similar burning rate and that RB had advised against it??? Be that as it may........., you can see the results on target #1. It sure got the velocity up there......well, almost? But, I was not overly impressed with the group size/shape. I still think N-130 is my powder of choice and N-110 as the booster. Read on..... Group two is one that I really wanted to try with the 200 gr. FTX sabotless but left my load book home, and instead shot it saboted. It only shot so, so! Note: shot #2 was about 100 fps slower than the others? I think I failed to seat the bullet (only used the starter) and load failed to fire; or had an ignition problem? In any event, reseated the mixed up powder and got the lower speed and impact. Hence, the 6 shot group. So, now to 300 yards. This duplex was shot the last time as 16/56 N-110/N-130. I added a grain to the bottom and subtracted one from the top. The load increase some 50 fps and gave me and average of 2974 for six shots. Shots 3, 4 and 5 produced a 1.418 group. I was using my main crosshair which printed those above two loads a couple of inches high at 100. As you can see, that group is 4" low at 300. So, I'm figuring this load shoots 6" low from a dead on 100 yard setting. Virtually one crosshair is all that is needed from any range out to 300 yards or so. (slight hold over or under) The fourth and final group used the same duplex with the 195 Barnes and also gave the same velocities with the exception of shot #5 which registered 3,021 fps Shots #2,3 and 4 gave me my smallest three shot 300 yard group right at 1.038". It was funny how shot #1 hit dead on (I am now using the first stadia line below the center crosshair) then the next four shot moved to the right (I fired the sixth shot to try to make it a five shot group) and the sixth? It went back with #1? No wind, no pulled shot just ?? Still, no vertical. At those speed, vertical is not that critical.......at least out to 300 yards. Another 1/2 gr. of the booster should put me at a solid 3,000 fps. And yes, SPEED KILLS! Richard
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Post by Tarheel on Oct 7, 2009 21:07:32 GMT -5
Sweet, any signs of excessive pressure?
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Post by Richard on Oct 7, 2009 21:46:38 GMT -5
Tarheel Good question? Unfortunately, with a ML, it is not as simple to tell as with a CF. There, you can get an idea if lifting the bolt handle is harder than normal, signs of excessive flattening of the primer or pierced primers, the impression of your ejector on the base of the case. At this same range session, a shooter double charged his Savage and it made a loud "Kaboom" and sort of got him in the face (not too bad) and the primer came out half blown away, but no damage to the rifle. 120 gr. of H-4198 with a 200 gr. bullet So, to answer your question, no, my primers came out normal and obviously, I was not blowing any sabots as the accuracy was super. In the other case, the shot could not be found on the paper. A testament to "gas escape" factor shooting with sabots. If you have been following my previous reports, I have been "creeping up" with my loads......a little at a time. I am confident that 3,000 fps with a 23" barrel is doable and safe. Richard
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Post by boarhog on Oct 7, 2009 22:42:05 GMT -5
Richard, Good report, and the shootin aint bad either! LOL The speed you're getting would convince me to hunt with the Barnes bullet. I would be afraid that the SST and XTP are too fragile for 3K at close range.
Odd how shots 1 and 6 on target 4 formed a separate group? One of those "Head Scratching" moments.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Oct 8, 2009 4:43:59 GMT -5
The vertical spread at 300 yds is quite consistent. Shots 1 & 6 could be pushed a few inches by a whisp of a breeze that you can't even detect...or a breeze down range. No biggie. It's gonna happen at these ranges when we toss low BC bullets down range at relatively slow speeds
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Post by edge on Oct 8, 2009 8:24:03 GMT -5
If I wanted to be a wise guy I would say that your recoil lug is not flat ;D ;D ;D In all seriousness, I think that there IS a mechanical problem! Take my N120 load: Almost zero vertical but TWO distinct groups. Take group #4: No vertical and almost the identical two groups! Now I will go out on a limb here and say that if you shrink Group #4 to 1/3 = a 100 yard group and overlay it on group #1 that they will be nearly identical in size and very close in shape!! It may be wind, but I doubt it. I have/had a similar problem with my rifle. I have done a few things to my rifle that may or not have fixed it. I have not shot it enough to know if mine is cured. dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thread=4206edge. PS Quickload estimates that your N120 load should have had a velocity of 2953 fps and a pressure of 40,332 psi. Your velocities are very close so the pressure is probably in that range too.
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Post by lwh723 on Oct 8, 2009 9:07:26 GMT -5
I've been seeing some horizontal stringing in my groups too. I was thinking it was probably due to sabot stress (as I'm not real good about giving the barrel time to cool) or inconsistent form from the bench. Edges post opens a whole new can of worms for me.
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Post by chuck41 on Oct 8, 2009 9:28:11 GMT -5
Aah, 3000. The holy grail of muzzleloading or how to kill and field dress a deer in one shot.
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Post by Richard on Oct 8, 2009 10:19:13 GMT -5
Edge.........Ok, lets go to the mechanical thing. One thing I never mentioned here is the recoil lug. If I had said that I installed a ground Hollands extra fat recoil lug, I know you would have said: "Ah - Ha!". So I did not ;D The reason for it? In all the "stuff" I acquired from the Doc in SC that died, (he was an amateur gunsmith) I found one! So I installed it when I put on the Pac-Nor. Now don't get me wrong, I still don't think the lug has anything to do with the grouping, just that you can eliminate it from the equation. The gun I just installed the Pac-Nor on used the factory lug and shot a first time, el cheapo scope (3x9) 1.1" group with plain ole' XTP's. I am very confident of my bedding and in fact, "re - did" when I put on the .45. The custom Wenig stock forend is fatter than anything Savage makes and is extremely rigid. The barrel is excessively free floated. The trigger is Rifle Basix at 1 1/2 lbs. The Leupold scope is 6.5 x 20 and just came back from having a varmint hunter reticle and the internals worked over. I have been very happy with my groupings and see no scope issue. Mounts are Burris tactical with six screws per ring and base is the one piece steel. The rest is the lead sled with a 16 lb lead shot bag, and mounted on a tracking device that has a spring that pulls it back into battery after each shot. It makes returning the rifle on target after each loading just about perfect. The fact that the sled is allowed to recoil slightly without jumping up (I put grease on the front two rubber boots) should be an asset for accuracy. In fact, if you look at both those 300 yard groups and divide them by three to get their 100 yd. size, they are fairly respectable: Right? (1.8" and 1.6" for 6 shots at 100) So maybe, this is all the rifle/load/bullet is capable of? Maybe a different load combination will correct it? Unfortunately, I cannot control the components and loads as precisely as with my bench rest CF custom rifles. In this game we are pretty much stuck with "factory produced" bullets. Even the Parkers that some rave about are not constructed with the precision of custom benchrest bullets. This is why all the top competitors use custom bullets. It is easy to get a bullet out of balance due to the lack of quality control in mass produced bullets. The same goes for the sabots. I am not complaining, as I know this is a ML and will never be a bench rifle. It sure is a big step up from a factory Savage .50. And as with the .50, I am having fun playing with various loads. Oh, and your right, I don't believe the wind played a factor. It was dead quiet. None of the "wind mills" at 100 and 200 yards were moving. Richard
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Post by edge on Oct 8, 2009 11:14:38 GMT -5
Hopefully you took my "recoil lug" comment as the joke that it was intended to be I am not faulting any of your work, just pointing out what I personally see. I am not saying there is anything wrong with your shooting or the size of the groups! Perhaps I look too closely at groups and see what is not there, or perhaps others don't see what I see...I don't know for sure. I look at Group #4 and see shots 1 and 6 as VERY close, then I see an obvious gap and see shots 2,3,4,5 as very close but DISTINCTLY separate from #1 & #6 group! So I looked to see if there is a pattern that emerges in other groups. To me I DO SEE a similar pattern in Group #1 I see shots #2 and #5 very close together, THEN I see a gap, then I see shots #1 and #3 and #4 very close. I merely reported what I saw and in the spirit of helping. Hopefully it was taken that way.... edge.
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Post by edge on Oct 8, 2009 12:43:48 GMT -5
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Post by Richard on Oct 8, 2009 13:33:24 GMT -5
They are of interest. And thank you for pointing them out! Now I have to figure out just where to look? One thing I am thinking about is the spring set up on my lead sled. It is obvious that the sled is not causing vertical so I think the fact that a recoil factor is built into the sled/base indicates that part is OK! On the other hand, it could be with the spring? Next week I will eliminate the spring and maybe just add another little 8 lb. leather shot bag to the 16 lb. existing one. Or, not even add the other one? You do have an observant eye! And thanks for the quick load pressure check. Richard
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Post by rangeball on Oct 8, 2009 13:39:34 GMT -5
Richard, how well does your stock fit into the front rest on the sled? Are you using the windage adjustments? I believe the way it's designed it can introduce varying side pressure which could cause the left and rights. I noticed this yesterday as I was trying to find a good hold position to replicate what I will use in the field. I don't use the windage adjustment, and found it doesn't take much side pressure to influence windage impact.
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Post by Richard on Oct 8, 2009 14:07:13 GMT -5
Another good point Rangeball. My stock, being a good 1/2 inch wider than the Savage stocks, fits the rest pretty tight. Now the horizontal adjustment is a pretty "Mickey Mouse" arrangement. Nothing like on my good benchrest front rest. You could be on to something. I would go back to my regular rest, but I am going for an MRI on the the right shoulder in the morning. Possible rotator cuff damage. Therefore, I am temporarily staying away from it in favor of the sled. I will be looking at that arrangement and see if it needs some "fixin' " Thanks Richard
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Post by boarhog on Oct 8, 2009 15:52:28 GMT -5
If it is a mechanical problem, how would you go about eliminating each possibility of cause? Where would you start? When I was fiddling with my rifle lately, I realize that I did too many things at once to be able to definitively say what one thing had the most impact on my groups or lack thereof. I was so frustrated that I was doing everything I could do all at once! In Richard's case, since most of his groups are pretty fantastic, would he need to shoot only at long range so that any problem will be more visable?
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Post by rangeball on Oct 8, 2009 16:05:36 GMT -5
You have the DFT, right? How about removing the front rest and using one of your others? Still get the recoil reduction but may tell you something?
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Post by Richard on Oct 8, 2009 20:04:25 GMT -5
Rangeball: Yes, the DFT. Swapping the top off my good rest is definitely out. Too much trouble. I did find that the pivot screw that controls windage, was loose and it allowed some sideways "jiggle!" I tightened that up and the jiggle went away. I have the main shaft bushed to tighten it up, but neglected to think about that Mickey Mouse windage control Thanks for pointing that out. I'm probably just "nit-pickin!". The Pac-Nor's plain out shoot. For what it cost to put this "semi-custom" muzzleloader together (about $1100.00 for gun and barrel) I can't see spending $4300.00 for one of "Richards Custom Muzzle Loaders" just to shave an inch off your groups. I looked over his web site and the guns are nice and he gives you a lot of bells and whistles but he also kind of locks you into his load. And who wants to shoot those expensive Parkers all day? A gun like that is for some guy with very deep pockets and wants to impress his friends To me, its basically like one of the Remington's that dave d puts together for a whole lot less $$$. I'm sure the rifles he builds on the Custom Actions, like the BAT, are at least $1200.00 more. Richard
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Post by DBinNY on Oct 8, 2009 21:22:02 GMT -5
Some very interesting observations here. Nice shooting Richard and good luck with that shoulder. It was a dirty trick to put a custom recoil lug on that thing and not tell us (whether or not it makes any difference). I'd imagine those 3000 fps loads wouldn't leave you wondering if the gun went off with a standard weight gun and no lead sled. I'm wondering if there is some practical limit to recoil and our ability to shoot these things in field conditions (i.e., might we be better off with a real accurate load at 2,600 to 2,700 fps for field use)? I'm not suggesting that to be the case but it's worth thinking about. It's amazing how painless these things are to shoot at those velocities. I'm sure enjoying your load development regardless. Perhaps I should evaluate the practical aspects of shooting at Mach II+++ on woodchucks next summer.
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Post by Richard on Oct 9, 2009 14:26:17 GMT -5
DBinNY..........Man, this thing is just like shooting one of my varmint rifles. If we had the amount of ground hogs as you do up in NYS, I would be having a blast. Of course, I have a number of rifles and LR pistols in .17, .20, .22 and 6mm to also reek havoc on them hogs also! After shooting the .50 with 300 gr. bullets to 2500 fps, I really don't think this rifle would be bad off a regular rest or under field conditions. As far as the shoulder? Had my MRI today and the rotator cuff is definitely in need of repair. Soooooooo, I now have to set up a date for the surgery And, being the right shoulder and being a righty, it will put a damper on my shooting for a couple of months after the operation. Although I am tempted to do some left hand shooting or play with the LR pistols. Richard
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Post by Jon on Oct 9, 2009 17:43:03 GMT -5
Richard. I wish you great success with the surgery. And thank you for the up date. I was always using the quick reply. I never said I was computer literate. I assume the shoulder may slow down any gun work for a while. I just found out I have to go in for eye surgery on my one good eye so hopefully that may improve my shooting a little. Again wish you luck with the shoulder. Jon
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Post by rbinar on Oct 10, 2009 5:40:00 GMT -5
I advised against it because I didn't think sabots would survive. I still think the pressures you are making are rather unusual for sabot survival and would caution other shooters not to expect to go this fast with this amount of powder without some sabot issues.
However with 70 grains or more powder you'd have to go a lot faster (bullet speed) than this to have a true safety issue. Even in your rifle sabots will not survive over 45,000psi and that is nowhere near a maximum for a well designed rifle on a 10ML frame.
I still believe you will not have your true potential until you shoot a maximum SINGLE. The reason is you need more powder to make speed even if your barrel is relatively short. Could I suggest you shoot 75 grains of N120 as a single or if it has trouble igniting go with a bare essential duplex of 2 grains of 5744. You have already shot to over 2950 with 72 grains of powder. So a perfect load would probably make 3000fps at 75 grains. Perhaps with your rifle it will work but with the average rifle I'd have my worries.
Those are not worries of over pressure. They concern the sabot. With most shooters not being able to shoot over 62 grains of H4198 without numerous sabot issues it seems strange you are talking about more than 70 grains of N120 which is normally faster burning than H4198. For that matter have you sought a maximum load of H4198 which shoots faster (bullet speed but slower burning rate) than a similar pressure load of N120?
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Post by matthewj on Oct 10, 2009 6:39:04 GMT -5
Rb/Richard i have been getting just under 2900 with my .40 pacnor, average is 2886 with a 180 gr hornady sabotless with 70 gr of XMR 2015 accurracy has been excellent at 100 yars , thre shot 5/8-3/4 in
my .45 cal Pacnor shoots just a little faster , using the same bullet but with a blue crush rib harvestor sabot and 801 grains of 2015 im getting avg 2916 , sabots are still in good shape and accuracy is right at 3/4 in for 3 shots.
i have also shot both guns once at 300 yards and accuracy i thought was great , just under 3 inches for both only problem is the wind was pushing these about 14 inches to the right of my hold
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larry
8 Pointer
Posts: 172
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Post by larry on Oct 10, 2009 6:52:45 GMT -5
Rb/Richard i have been getting just under 2900 with my .40 pacnor, average is 2886 with a 180 gr hornady sabotless with 70 gr of XMR 2015 accurracy has been excellent at 100 yars , thre shot 5/8-3/4 in my .45 cal Pacnor shoots just a little faster , using the same bullet but with a blue crush rib harvestor sabot and 801 grains of 2015 im getting avg 2916 , sabots are still in good shape and accuracy is right at 3/4 in for 3 shots. i have also shot both guns once at 300 yards and accuracy i thought was great , just under 3 inches for both only problem is the wind was pushing these about 14 inches to the right of my hold Hey Matthew, Which 180gr. bullet are you using. Thats sounds pretty interesting. Tks, Larry
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Post by matthewj on Oct 10, 2009 7:22:46 GMT -5
Hi Larry . i am using the hornady 180 gr .400 xtp for Target shooting i also use the same load but with the 195 gr barnes for deer hunting
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Post by jims on Oct 10, 2009 8:01:20 GMT -5
Matthew, that 801 grain load must be stout. With the modification feature that can be altered. I know viewers will know that is a typo but for new readers that might cause some questions. Good shooting.
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Post by Richard on Oct 11, 2009 14:28:19 GMT -5
Matthew......I just know my 23" barrel will not burn 80 gr. of 2015 powder, thats why the duplex. I guess I'll just have to see what the limits are on sabot disruption? I have added .7 gr. more N-110 to my 17/55 N-11-/N-130 load giving me 17.7/55. If the sabots hold up, I should hit a consistent 3,000 fps Richard
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Post by ET on Oct 11, 2009 20:29:45 GMT -5
Richard
Just updated my Richard Test Results file and got my fix of long range shooting for this week. So when do you think you might try some antelope hunting with the reach out and touch someone loads? You definitely have the right setup for it.
To you and Jon good luck with your upcoming surgeries and wish for a quick mend.
Ed
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Post by Richard on Oct 12, 2009 14:36:57 GMT -5
Thanks ET........Wish I had the where with all to do another antelope hunt. It would be so rewarding with the ML. As far as the surgery? I go to see the Doc on Wednesday to get the official MRI results and then find out about when the surgery will take place. If the weather is OK, I will be "lead sledding it" at the range tomorrow!! Richard
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Post by dave d. on Oct 12, 2009 14:53:35 GMT -5
:)richard 3000fps your already there IMO what's 25fps. Goodluck with your surgery I hope it goes smoothly.
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Post by Richard on Oct 12, 2009 15:19:24 GMT -5
Thanks dave........I guess its just an "ego" thing ;D It also shoots a lot of theories about blowing sabots too (is it the cool rod? the swabbing between shot to create a slicker bore and less friction? Is my bore smoolther? Beats me!) Richard
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