|
|
Post by ozark on Sept 4, 2009 12:22:48 GMT -5
I have maintained for years that all makers of scopes and binoculars have the knowhow to build high quality optics. Tasco has long been considered to cheaply made to please the serious hunter. I have mounted many Tasco Scopes on rifles that provided good service. I have been using a pair of Tasco offshore 21 7X50 binoculars for the last ten years with complete satisfaction. The images are clear and bright and the system is waterproof and has proven durable. They are not cheap binoculars. I think I paid close to $200.00 for them. Don't remember the exact price but they were Tascos more expensive at the time. I could have got some for $19.95 that looked as well but lacking the quality inside. Bushnell, Leopold, Bosch, or whatever can make high quality or junk. My point is that if you get the top of a brand line you will likely get good quality. I think it is unfair to call a particular brand junk just because they happen to provide some junk for the people who either don't have the money or is satisfied with lower quality. I would not trade my proven Offshore 21 Tasco Binoculars for any brand without a side by side comparison and some history as to the lasting abilities of both. I have had excellent luck with Nikon scopes on several different rifles. Junk is junk regardless of the name printed on the packaging.
|
|
|
|
Post by whyohe on Sept 4, 2009 15:39:28 GMT -5
the saying you get what you pay for is accurate here. if you pay 20.00 for a scope and put it on a high powed rifle, dont expect it to last and be as clear as a 200.00 nikon. but i have one thing to say my nikon is jas as clear if not a bit more clear as my bushnell elite i paid 300.00 for.
|
|
|
|
Post by dougedwards on Sept 4, 2009 19:04:37 GMT -5
I think there was a time when Tasco attempted to compete with Burris, Bushnell and Nikon and the like and didn't do a bad job at it. Lately Tasco seems to be more concerned about selling low prices instead of high quality as far as rifle scopes are concerned. I don't know about their binos.
Many rifle scope manufacturers sell a varied mix of prices and quality while Barska, BSA, Osprey, NcStar, Sightmark and the like all seem not to be bothered by the fact that the product is lacking. They are after a certain market that only shops price. However Nightforce, Zeiss, Swarovski, Schmidt and Bender, Trijicon, IOR and others only target the most demanding sportsman as far as optics are concerned.
In my opinion it takes a type of elitist attitude to call anything that performs a purposeful task "junk". I know that I have had several Tasco scopes but unless they were to vastly improve their quality I will not purchase another unless maybe for a little .22 caliber squirrel gun but even at that I kind of doubt it.
Doug
|
|
|
|
Post by huntingmike on Sept 4, 2009 21:39:17 GMT -5
I think there was a time when Tasco attempted to compete with Burris, Bushnell and Nikon and the like and didn't do a bad job at it. Lately Tasco seems to be more concerned about selling low prices instead of high quality as far as rifle scopes are concerned. I don't know about their binos. Many rifle scope manufacturers sell a varied mix of prices and quality while Barska, BSA, Osprey, NcStar, Sightmark and the like all seem not to be bothered by the fact that the product is lacking. They are after a certain market that only shops price. However Nightforce, Zeiss, Swarovski, Schmidt and Bender, Trijicon, IOR and others only target the most demanding sportsman as far as optics are concerned. In my opinion it takes a type of elitist attitude to call anything that performs a purposeful task "junk". I know that I have had several Tasco scopes but unless they were to vastly improve their quality I will not purchase another unless maybe for a little .22 caliber squirrel gun but even at that I kind of doubt it. Doug Doug, I also used some Tasco products with good result. I think 2 or three years ago a high end Tasco scope ($250. I had it for a long time. It was one of the first lighted + hairs.) with the lifetime warranty, had the light switch to break. I sent it to the Tasco warranty return address. After several weeks they sent it back not repaired. They gave the explanation that Bushnell now owns the Tasco name brand and they would not honor Tasco's lifetime warranty. Therefore I will no longer buy Tasco or Bushnell brand name ever again. PERIOD. |
|
|
|
Post by davewolf on Sept 4, 2009 22:02:38 GMT -5
Interesting indeed. I've got a great Leopold Vari-X III on my deer rifle and a Nikon Omega on my inline. I like them both but believe that the Leopold is clearer and gathers more light.
But, if you like what you have hang on to it! A lot of buy outs of late.
Have a great day!
Dave
|
|
|
|
Post by mshm99 on Sept 6, 2009 12:52:39 GMT -5
I'll throw in my two cents. I completely agree that companies like Tasco are capable of building products of acceptable quality. Years ago when I had my FFL,wholesalers would clearance out the tasco high dollar stuff at very reasonable prices.I took a chance on some things. I had one Tasco 2X7X32MM on my Mossberg Trophy slugster for 10 years of great service. It is possible. You can get lucky.
For me , the problems start if you get that one product that just is not worth a turd. Most of the time you pay the shipping and a service fee on top of the price of the product. Service is usually slow ,and when you get it back,it's not really fixed. You complain and then they offer to sell you another like product for more than you can buy it on the street. So I buy this product for say 200 dollars, it fogs up,it costs me another $40 dollars to ship it back for postage and service fee,and when you can't make it right,you offer to sell me more of the same and forget about the initial $200 I spent.
I'm done with that game. I'll buy the good stuff,thank you.
mshm
Sometimes you get lucky.
|
|
|
|
Post by rossman40 on Sept 7, 2009 9:19:17 GMT -5
Mike, Leupold bought Redfield and is not honoring Redfields lifetime warranty, you put them on your ban list too?
The problem nowadays is if you go looking for the Nikon, Pentax, Bushnell, Tasco, Weaver, Vortex, Simmons, BSA, Sightron and most other brands scope factory you will not find it. You may find a office and a warehouse/distribution center, but all these scopes come from the same factories in Japan, China and the Philippines. The high end Pentax comes from Burris. Leupold gets all their glass from Japan, their binos,spotting scopes and rangefinders are made overseas. Burris is pretty much the same way but with more and more of their scope components coming from overseas. Nightforce brags made in USA but the majority of the scope is made in Japan. Trijicon is just as bad with components from Japan and the tritium inserts from Israel. The Zeiss Conquest, even though assembled in the USA, is 80% made by Meopta. Swarovski hasn't made their own optical glass in years and most components are outsourced. The Schmidt and Bender scopes, everything is outsourced, with the majority being Japanese and Hungarian parts.
It is to easy to go to a company like LOW or Kenko in Japan (or if you want it cheap, China or better yet have the Japs design it then the Chinks make it), tell them what features you want, quality of lenses and coatings, what materials you want it made from, what level of QC you expect and they handle the rest.
It just boils down to "you get what you pay for" and getting the most value for you dollar. Find the scope that fits your needs, with the support you want at your price. Do not expect quality lenses and durability from a $49.95 scope. But then again why pay over a $1000 when a $500 one is better.
|
|
|
|
Post by huntingmike on Sept 7, 2009 10:59:37 GMT -5
Mike, Leupold bought Redfield and is not honoring Redfields lifetime warranty, you put them on your ban list too? The problem nowadays is if you go looking for the Nikon, Pentax, Bushnell, Tasco, Weaver, Vortex, Simmons, BSA, Sightron and most other brands scope factory you will not find it. You may find a office and a warehouse/distribution center, but all these scopes come from the same factories in Japan, China and the Philippines. The high end Pentax comes from Burris. Leupold gets all their glass from Japan, their binos,spotting scopes and rangefinders are made overseas. Burris is pretty much the same way but with more and more of their scope components coming from overseas. Nightforce brags made in USA but the majority of the scope is made in Japan. Trijicon is just as bad with components from Japan and the tritium inserts from Israel. The Zeiss Conquest, even though assembled in the USA, is 80% made by Meopta. Swarovski hasn't made their own optical glass in years and most components are outsourced. The Schmidt and Bender scopes, everything is outsourced, with the majority being Japanese and Hungarian parts. It is to easy to go to a company like LOW or Kenko in Japan (or if you want it cheap, China or better yet have the Japs design it then the Chinks make it), tell them what features you want, quality of lenses and coatings, what materials you want it made from, what level of QC you expect and they handle the rest. It just boils down to "you get what you pay for" and getting the most value for you dollar. Find the scope that fits your needs, with the support you want at your price. Do not expect quality lenses and durability from a $49.95 scope. But then again why pay over a $1000 when a $500 one is better. If I had a Redfield that Leupold would not honor I would put them on my list !!! There is always more to choose from that will honor their warranty's. That is why I will never by another General Motors product again. The old burn me once theory. |
|
|
|
Post by sagittarius on Sept 7, 2009 23:21:29 GMT -5
Rossman, How the heck do you know all this stuff ?  The knowledge you have on optics is amazing.  Hell, I only thought I knew optics. ;D Who makes Swarovski glass ? I heard Leica's glass is made in Japan, is that correct ? Next time I want an optic, I'm gonna ask you first. |
|
|
|
Post by sw on Sept 8, 2009 21:33:55 GMT -5
Rossman, How the heck do you know all this stuff ? Next time I want an optic, I'm gonna ask you first. Beats me, but he does. I ask him on scopes and will on other things!  He hasn't been wrong on the scopes. |
|
|
|
Post by rossman40 on Sept 9, 2009 0:29:35 GMT -5
In Europe the leader in glass is Schott AG, which is kinda tied to the hip of Zeiss. Up to the end of WWII both Zeiss and Schott was based in Jena, Germany, at the end of WWII the allies rushed in and moved as much as they could of the companies to Mainz which was in West Germany and Jena fell into East Germany and continued to supply the eastern bloc with high end optical glass. You will often see the reference of "Jena Glass" by Meopta and IOR and other eastern European optics makers. When the wall fell Schott (supposedly with the backing of Zeiss) wasted no time and no expense in buying the Jena glassworks to regain control of the optical glass making in Europe. Schott to this day sets the standards in optical glass.
In Japan the optics industry is like the mafia. Nikon before WWII was the Japan Optical Industries which was actually owned/ran by the Japanese Imperial Navy. After the war the industry was broken up and in the glass making there is Hikari Glass company which maintained close ties with Nikon and was officially bought in like 2004. The biggest is Ohara glass which has factories in Japan, Taiwan, China, Malaysia and a army of salesmen in the US and Europe. Not only do they make the glass but run a pretty big grinding operation. If you ask any eye doctor who the biggest glass maker is and he would probly say Hoya, this Japanese company has concentrated primarily on eyeglasses around the world. To round out the top 4 in Japan it would be Sumita.
In the US the leader is Corning and the optical capital of the US would have to be Rochester, NY. Still quite a few small grinding operations there. While they still make the glass, to get Corning to make lenses you have to have the budget of NASA or the DoD and is making a killing in fiber optics. Bausch & Lomb, the once US leader in making lenses would rather do contacts.
China is home to the biggest maker in the industry CDGM. How big? 10,000 tons a year. Their sales office in the US is in,,,,, Rochester, NY.
You have to fiquire these companies Schott, Ohara, Hikari, Hoya, Corning, Sumita and CDGM probly control 95% of the optical glass market. Even if one of the companies is making the lens doesn't mean they made the glass. Then you have to deal with the quality of the glass and the quality of the grinding. As far as who is using what nowadays it is hard to tell.
|
|
|
|
Post by dougedwards on Sept 9, 2009 5:38:56 GMT -5
Maybe off subject but any word on what is going on with Kahles? Are they operating independently or has another company bought them? They at one time offered some of the best glass and are reported to be the oldest optical scope maker in the world.
Doug
|
|
|
|
Post by boarhog on Sept 9, 2009 8:53:15 GMT -5
This is an interesting thread. The possibility of my paying more than $300.00 for a scope is slim and none. The problem is learning how scopes compare in quality and price. I have had good service out of Tasco World Class Wide Angle, and Simmons scopes on various rifles, and am currently using a Simmons 4-12X40 on my MLII. So far, the least satisfactory scope I've used was a Burris Compact 3X9. It would flare out easily and was super critical as to eye position. I had another Burris Fullfield Ballistic Plex on a Rem Mountain Rifle in .257 Roberts, but it was stolen before I could develop an opinion about it. It would be nice if there was a "Consumer Report" type source that would give un-biased comparisons for us poor folks!
|
|
|
|
Post by rossman40 on Sept 9, 2009 19:54:10 GMT -5
As far as Kahles, The last of the Kahles died leaving no heirs. Before he went he made the deal to sell the company to Swarovski about 4 years ago. They are still selling the brand.
|
|
|
|
Post by 12ptdroptine on Sept 9, 2009 21:09:07 GMT -5
I have been unhappy with some un-named brands in the past. I even got rid of a couple guns along the way because I thought they werent good shooter's. Now everything I own has Leupold Glass on it except 1 Nikon on a slug gun...And a Simons .22Mag on a Ruger 10/22... After the frustration in the past of lower end scop'e I just decided to buy the best I can afford... And thus far I havent had another problem with glass. Dont get me wrong i have spent TOOOO much money on glass in the last 10 years. But I am not sorry for any of it. Drop
|
|
|
|
Post by rossman40 on Sept 10, 2009 0:49:41 GMT -5
If you look over say even just the last 30 years the scopes have gotten much better. You go back to the old Unertls, Lymans and Weavers and compare them to a $100 Chinese scope, the Chinese scope would blow them away. In today's scopes the glass is better, modern formulations, computer controlled grinding and polishing, lens coatings that are far superior. Metal parts that are CNCed from better alloys with precision most toolmakers in the past use to dream about. CAD software and test equipment to squeeze the most performance from the design.
But then you have the companies that will buy the glass or lenses that didn't make the grade for others. Instead of multi-coating they will use the cheapest and least amount of coating they can get by with. They will use some machine shop that has machines that are so worn out they can't get decent work and then use metal that isn't fit to make popcans along with other materials that might work. Then they will brand it with some off the wall brand name and when everybody figures out it is a POS they will change the name and keep shipping or dump the lot to Cheaperthendirt or CDNN.
|
|
|
|
Post by wilmsmeyer on Sept 10, 2009 4:46:09 GMT -5
Excellent work agent Rossman! It seems that buying a scope of any make is a crap shoot with all the variables. The joys of a global economy.
|
|
|
|
Post by rossman40 on Sept 11, 2009 19:54:23 GMT -5
Just a bit of intel, Leica dumped a bunch of money and know-how into a Chinese joint venture plant called Guanghi Optical Instrument Co. Supposedly this plant is already producing the Leica lenses going into Panasonic cameras and there is rumors about the new Leica riflescopes.
|
|
|
|
Post by huntingmike on Sept 11, 2009 23:07:57 GMT -5
Just a bit of intel, Leica dumped a bunch of money and know-how into a Chinese joint venture plant called Guanghi Optical Instrument Co. Supposedly this plant is already producing the Leica lenses going into Panasonic cameras and there is rumors about the new Leica riflescopes. Will it continue to be great quality ? |
|
|
|
Post by rossman40 on Sept 12, 2009 13:11:38 GMT -5
Quality has always been the problem with the Chinese (mainland, not Taiwan) in everything they made. Just in the last few years your starting to see better stuff from some of the "joint venture" plants that were started in the mid 90s. I talked with a guy that was with General Dynamics that toured the aircraft plants. The Chinese had some of the top line Jap CNC machines but once the part came off the machine they never looked at it and sent it on down the line. So if there was a flaw in the metal or a hiccup in the machining process it was not caught until after the final assembly was made. If a part had to be heat treated it was never checked that it came out with the right hardness or if it was the right alloy to start with. He said they would make things like hydraulic components and never test them at the factory. And that was thru the entire industrial complex, from the time when the ore was dug out of the ground till the whatever finished product was sold to the consumer.
|
|
|
|
Post by whelenman on Oct 30, 2009 10:28:23 GMT -5
I have several scopes for which I've given what to me is a great deal of money........Leupold VXIIIs and Zeiss Conquests being my best. However, the best piece of glass I own resolution-wise is an older Simmons 6-20x44 Silhouette scope. It was a Japanese made scope. At the time it was the highest priced scope that Simmons made and the price was $300 which was on par with the Leupolds. It's been on a number of rifles over the years up to 300 Win Mag and has always given good service. The glass is what it is regardless of name.
|
|
|
|
Post by jeremylong on Oct 31, 2009 22:32:39 GMT -5
OK Rossman - I am sitting here amazed at the info you have. But the very next question that pops in my mind is....
What scopes are on your MLII's
|
|
|
|
Post by deadeye on Oct 31, 2009 23:25:48 GMT -5
rossman-can we call you "webster" excellent knowledge as you seem like our private dictionary! and that is a compliment! ;D ;D
|
|
|
|
Post by ozark on Nov 1, 2009 14:16:19 GMT -5
Japan makes among the best knives available. They know metals and have the abilities to make top quality stuff. Browning shotguns were made in Japan for a long time and may still be made there. And look at todays best made cars. I think that china will remedy their weaknesses and compete quality wise with other countries soon. My fear is that if we are not careful that "Made in USA" may become a logo for inferior quality soon. I sure hope not.
|
|
|
|
Post by rossman40 on Nov 3, 2009 21:48:33 GMT -5
What I have on my 10ML right now is a 3-9X40 Elite 3200. Lot of bang for the buck and basically a great hunting scope for $169 (thats what I paid for it). After loosing one scope to a ATV accident I just do not believe in high dollar optics for the field. Of course it is different if you were shooting 800 yds but for out to 300 you do not need a lot but you do need reliability. However, I am taking the plunge and ordering a WCE, if I can get the 50mm I may buy two. Another scope that has my eye is the new 30mm Vortex Crossfires, if they would hold up to the recoil of the 10ML. I just seen one of the new Vortex Razors and that was impressive, $2000 but it puts the the NF and MK IVs to shame optics wise.
Some of the Jap steel is the finest of the hybrid stuff for knives. US steel makers do not want to mess with it.
|
|
|
|
Post by minst7877 on Nov 4, 2009 0:10:51 GMT -5
What glass does the crossfire compare too?
DC
|
|
|
|
Post by rossman40 on Nov 4, 2009 8:18:51 GMT -5
From what I seen of the 30mm tube Crossfire I looked at the glass was a step up from older models (from what I remember) or maybe it was just the 30mm tube. I would have to say looked better then a 3200 or a VX-I, maybe almost 4200. The only thing I didn't like was the bell AO adjustment and the turrents looked cheap. I would be willing to give up fancy knobs for better glass to keep the price down.
That new Razor is very impressive and is in the top tier along with USO, S&B and Premier Reticle scopes, of course a top tier price but has all the bells and whistles that may put on the top of the heap. If I was USO or S&B I would be shaking in my boots because it is serious competition for them. It would be interesting to see if some of the features filter down to the Viper model line.
I just learned that the glass in most of the Leupolds is now chinese, you have to step up to a MKIV or the high end Leupolds to get japanese glass. Also if you look at the newer Leupolds you will no longer find "Made in USA", the instruction book does say "Printed in USA".
|
|
|
|
Post by artjr338wm on Nov 13, 2009 22:54:40 GMT -5
So rossman,
What in your humble opinion is the best scope to be had for use on center fire rifles for $400 or less and then $800 or else?
Do you think a Sightron is up to handling the recoil of a 10ML-II when pushing a 300grn bullet at 2400fps for 1000+ times? I have heard literally countless good reviews of Sightron scopes in terms of optical quality, but I have no idea how they would hold up once seated on a 10ML-II.
I ask as the $400 scope would go on my next 10ML-II and I would like to get one of those muti aiming point scopes like a Zeiss "Z-Plex" 800 for use in making shots over 400 yards.
Of course I would prefer a company with excellent C/S.
Thanks,
Arthur.
|
|
|
|
Post by rossman40 on Nov 14, 2009 9:47:27 GMT -5
I think the up and coming scope line right now is Vortex. I have heard nothing bad about customer service. The question I have is how tough is the Crossfire line? The Diamondback and Viper line are great.
Sightron has always been a good deal. The Sightron 2 Big Skys are very nice. The S IIIs have some of the best glass coming out of Japan and would take more of the benchrest market if they had a better reticle. The cheaper S Is may not hold up on a 10ML.
Zeiss Conquest are nice but they have everyone believing it is a Zeiss when 80% of the scope is made by Meopta. Of course the prices have been going up,up,up.
As far as BDC reticles everyone has one.
As far as value for your money the WCEs for $300 is a steal. The Bushnell 3200, 4200 and 6500 line is still good but CS is hit or miss. Nikon is still plugging away, I do not like the short Omega but the Buckmaster and Prostaff line are contenders. Leupold is still in the run but while they have a loyal following people are starting to wise up. Burris since being bought by Beretta is shifting more production overseas.
I just bought a WCE and may buy another. If I was to buy another scope after that I would be looking hard at the Vortex line and maybe the Bushnell, Nikon and Sightron lines after that. Of course if there are any deals like the WCEs that come up they would be in run.
|
|
|
|
Post by artjr338wm on Nov 15, 2009 15:45:43 GMT -5
Thanks for the help Rossman, now one last thing. What scope are you refering to when you list WCE?
Thanks again,
Arthur.
|
|
He hasn't been wrong on the scopes. 
