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Post by deadeer on Sept 11, 2014 10:08:42 GMT -5
We will be hunting a State Park deer reduction hunt again this year. Lots of other hunters. Shots can be from point blank to 150yd. Lots of thickets surrounding our area we like to hunt. I lost a big buck last year with my 357Max, shot in the lungs, that ran right between several other hunters. The next day, I used my Sav50 with the mighty BO, bcr, and 60gr n120. Shot 2, half rack buck at 15yd thru the heart on the trot that went 40yds and fell down in a ravine. The other was a 100yd shot on a big doe that went 50yds into a nasty thicket. I want "drop on the spot" performance this year, getting tired of chasing them, and sure don't want to lose another one to someone else. Head shots are iffy at best, as I hate to risk a miss because those deer are skittish and don't stand still for long with all the shooting around. I put a 45Pac on the Savage shooting the 195bx, and have a 45RemPac shooting 275MH for my long range gun. What sounds like bad medicine for the scenario I have described? Likely not using the RemPac due to it's weight. I have most all the common bullets we use. Would you go for the 195bx thru the shoulders or maybe the 300gr XTP thru the heart-lungs? Any other ideas?
Jay
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Post by rambler on Sept 11, 2014 10:18:08 GMT -5
I have never shot a deer with a smokeless as yet, but I shot multitudes of deer out of my 20" H&R that was converted to black powder using that 195BX... I always shot the neck and they dropped on the spot. I couldn't beat that Barnes Expander.
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Post by lwh723 on Sept 11, 2014 10:37:43 GMT -5
I don't care what you're shooting. If you only go through the lungs, more often than not, they'll run--especially the big boys.
I shot the buck in my avatar with a 275MH through the lungs. Paint bucket blood trail, but he went a 100 yards.
Head, neck, high shoulder are the only guarantees for anchoring them IMO. Although some rounds/velocities will give you more margin for error, within reason, it doesn't matter what you use as long as your shot placement is good.
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Post by jims on Sept 11, 2014 10:47:36 GMT -5
I agree. If I want them right there I use the high shoulder shot. I do not like the head shot especially. I have used it on occasion and have under 1 MOA Mls at relatively close range but have always worried about others with jaws blown off and no recovered deer.
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Post by dannoboone on Sept 11, 2014 11:07:12 GMT -5
Another vote for the scapula shot with the 195BX, keeping in mind what's on the other side with all those other hunters out there.
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Post by rangeball on Sept 11, 2014 11:08:52 GMT -5
Up to 150 yds? Put a barnes in the high shoulder/spine junction and down they go.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2014 11:28:30 GMT -5
Up to 150 yds? Put a barnes in the high shoulder/spine junction and down they go. Luke and rangeball hit it on the head. High shoulder or neck shots. My grandfather always told me to shoot then in the next and won't go any where. Last year I shot my first mule deer with 250 SST around 150-175 yards quartering to me. Hit him in the right front shoulder and excited behind the left front shoulder. Now I realize that there are a few people who don't like the SST/FTX however they are my go to bullet for now. That mule deer fell like a ton of bricks. I've never seen a deer drop like this one did. I can almost see it hitting the dirt now. Most importantly like Luke and Range all said it's where you hit them. Neck shoulder and base of the neck is where you want to aim.
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Post by rangeball on Sept 11, 2014 11:36:16 GMT -5
You put a bone crunching bullet like a barnes in the juncture where the spine is covered by the shoulder blade, there should be no tracking involved. For me personally neck shots don't offer as much margin for error.
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Post by deadeer on Sept 11, 2014 11:53:41 GMT -5
Well then, "a bone crunching we will go!" Just kind of hard to get off the heart-lung, archery type shot thinking after all the years of doing it. Shot a few thru the shoulders over the years but not really liking the mess of destruction it leaves. Likely the 195bx will be a little cleaner not coming apart though. It is shooting good with the 10/50 duplex 4759-h4198 so that is what I will stick with then. Thanks for the comments guys.
Jay
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Post by rangeball on Sept 11, 2014 13:39:35 GMT -5
If you want to continue the boiler room shot, I've seen frangibles like the SST, XTP and BE put them down in a hurry. Maybe not on the spot but rarely past 10 yds. Dump all the energy with no exit hole in the heart lung area seems to put a hurt on them. Of course it does increase the risk of a wounded animal if they move at the last split second and you hit a big bone.
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Post by donw28 on Sept 11, 2014 16:03:00 GMT -5
Another vote for the high shoulder shot.
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Post by 7mmfreak on Sept 11, 2014 16:43:38 GMT -5
I only shoot shoulders/lungs. Neck and head shots are not kosher in my book.
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Post by rambler on Sept 11, 2014 16:56:55 GMT -5
Neck and head shots are not kosher in my book. Why not?
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Post by 7mmfreak on Sept 11, 2014 17:35:44 GMT -5
They are small margin of error targets and the most mobile part of any animal's (to include people so I preach the same thing at work) body. I know there are lots of people who do it and will disagree with me but I have seen a LOT of people pull triggers so I don't have a ton of confidence in most shooters. I have also known too many people who have attempted it and lost deer. A few of them shrugged it off which is unacceptable to me. I am an animal lover (my dogs and cats have better food and healthcare than some people) so I only shoot what I know beyond a shadow of a doubt is going to render a nearly instantaneous kill. I will not risk anything else as I am not a subsistence hunter; I do it for the love of hunting and can afford to shoot when I want to since nobody is counting on meals from my adventures in the woods. It's a free country and people will do as they please but the OP asked and that is my opinion: any bullet you want through the boiler room.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2014 17:50:15 GMT -5
Another vote for the scapula shot with the 195BX, keeping in mind what's on the other side with all those other hunters out there. +1 on that they just keep going after punishing bone and anything in between....
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Post by rambler on Sept 11, 2014 17:52:14 GMT -5
You make some good points, and it's refreshing knowing another animal lover. Fortunately I have never missed a neck shot and have only attempted one when it's just about point blank. Early year MZ hunting is typically when that happens, the deer haven't been traumatized as yet with the 300K hunters in the woods on opening day of modern gun in Arkansas.
It does make for a very humane and instant kill, especially with that Barnes Ex.
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Post by madcityhoosier on Sept 11, 2014 18:01:20 GMT -5
I only shoot shoulders/lungs. Neck and head shots are not kosher in my book. I agree, but I'm a lifelong bow hunter, so my opinion is perhaps colored by that. When you're hunting in these state park hunts, nothing is guaranteed. If it was me, I would take heart lung shots with the flattest, bluntest jacketed bullet I could find (in my case, a .457 Remington 300 grain hollow point). I would not risk missing that sweet spot on the shoulder, which if you do hit, you will ruin some meat for you, or the guy who walks over and claims it. Take the boiler room shot, and if some jerk wants to take credit for your deer that ran off a few yards, then there's nothing you can do. Maybe he really needs your deer, give him your blessing and help him drag it out. Maybe you could offer to shoot him another one too.
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Post by 7mmfreak on Sept 11, 2014 18:04:51 GMT -5
I agree, but I'm a lifelong bow hunter, so my opinion is perhaps colored by that. Me too; a longbow requires a high percentage shot.
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Post by mrbuck on Sept 11, 2014 18:16:59 GMT -5
7mmfreak... Very well put ! For me , if I really want that nice buck,I will try for the boiler room . A lot of room for error . High shoulder shot , great , but not as much room for error . Head and neck shots are not for me. Have not tried a neck or head shot in 35 years ... maybe longer .
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2014 18:42:20 GMT -5
being a meat hunter and a 40 yr bowhunter I keep it in the boiler room, I have tried every shot one can imagine with success but I want to put it where it dumps the highest volume of blood the quickest. while head shots are instantaneous so is the stoppage of blood. makes for some very bloody meat and as stated a very small margin of error. boiler room for me, gun or bow, just old fashioned I guess but it has worked for a Long time and a whole bunch of deer...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2014 18:48:52 GMT -5
I hope to shoot em in the eye with my Hankins! In all seriousness, I hope you get a big one on your hunt! Kyle
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Post by charles on Sept 11, 2014 19:06:02 GMT -5
High shoulder shot puts them down in a hurry
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Sept 11, 2014 20:23:14 GMT -5
I can't imagine not trying to go for the center mass, top of heart bottom of lungs shot. On certain angles you have to go thru a leg bone on the way in or on the way out with a gun. Most times this will anchor a deer. When the shot is perfectly broadside you miss all major leg bones and are nowhere near the spine or shoulder bones. Most times the deer will run but rarely ever over 50 yds with the types of weapons we are talking about. I have countless experiences with this. NOTHING runs very far with a non functioning, disintegrated heart or lungs very long. If you are hunting THAT close to others you must be in a literal war zone and not a comfortable hunting situation. That's not fun, is it?
Before I would start thinking I need head, high shoulder shots and neck shots to keep my deer from falling in to a totally unknown strangers hands, I would be looking for new hunting turf. Just my opinion.
We are shooting deer with moose guns here. What guns shoot 325 gr bullets in the 2600-2800...or higher fps? .375 mag? .338 Lapua? Maybe even greater energy figures at 100 or less yds.
I know not everyone has 100 acres to themselves, but if you have to worry about loosing a well shot deer that runs 50 yds with no heart, to a complete, unethical stranger, you are probably not hunting in an area that's safe to be in. That guy must have also been in sight, and in range, of you.
Shoot to kill the deer properly and humanely. If you have to blow them off their feet to either guarantee the deer is yours or to satisfy a goal of DRT you are either hunting in an unsafe place or have unreasonable expectations of what taking an animal cleanly is.
No disrespect meant here, just my opinion.
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Post by darrel on Sept 11, 2014 22:24:09 GMT -5
Hunting dense poison ivy infested cedar thickets has made a high shoulder shooter out of me. Of course most shots are less than 100 yards. Lots of things to consider but every hunters situation is different. My hunting turf is what it is. If the opportunity to hunt a bean or corn stubble field was available a boiler room shot with a 100 yd death run would be no problem.
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Post by deadeer on Sept 12, 2014 1:10:37 GMT -5
I can't imagine not trying to go for the center mass, top of heart bottom of lungs shot. On certain angles you have to go thru a leg bone on the way in or on the way out with a gun. Most times this will anchor a deer. When the shot is perfectly broadside you miss all major leg bones and are nowhere near the spine or shoulder bones. Most times the deer will run but rarely ever over 50 yds with the types of weapons we are talking about. I have countless experiences with this. NOTHING runs very far with a non functioning, disintegrated heart or lungs very long. If you are hunting THAT close to others you must be in a literal war zone and not a comfortable hunting situation. That's not fun, is it? NO, BUT WHEN YOUR STAND WAS SET UP DAYS BEFORE, AND GUYS WALK IN ON YOU IN THE DARK AND SET UP, NOT MUCH YOU CAN DO
Before I would start thinking I need head, high shoulder shots and neck shots to keep my deer from falling in to a totally unknown strangers hands, I would be looking for new hunting turf. Just my opinion.TWO DAY DRAW HUNT, YOU TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT, QUALITY DEER CHANCE AND EXTRA TAGS, WORTH IT TO ME
We are shooting deer with moose guns here. What guns shoot 325 gr bullets in the 2600-2800...or higher fps? .375 mag? .338 Lapua? Maybe even greater energy figures at 100 or less yds. I know not everyone has 100 acres to themselves, but if you have to worry about loosing a well shot deer that runs 50 yds with no heart, to a complete, unethical stranger THE WOODS ARE FULL OF THEM AROUND HERE, you are probably not hunting in an area that's safe to be in. That guy must have also been in sight, and in range, of you. LOTS OF GUYS WALKING AROUND TRYING TO KICK DEER UP, AMAZING HOW THEY SEEM TO WALK RIGHT TO YOU IN A TREESTAND WITH ORANGE HAT AND REQUIRED VEST ON
Shoot to kill the deer properly and humanely. If you have to blow them off their feet to either guarantee the deer is yours or to satisfy a goal of DRT you are either hunting in an unsafe place or have unreasonable expectations of what taking an animal cleanly is. THERE ARE MANY GUYS ON THE BOARD THAT POST THEY NEED A DROP ON THE SPOT SHOT DUE TO PROPERTY LINES OR ROUGH TERRAIN, NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT MINDSET. AS STATED IN PRIOR POST, I DON'T WANT THEM RUNNING INTO ANOTHER RAVINE OR CRAWLING UP IN A THICKET EITHER, NOT JUST THE THREAT OF HAVING SOMEONE ELSE FIND IT. THE BUCK I LOST LAST YEAR WAS NOT TRAILED FOR A FEW HOURS BECAUSE IT WAS SHOT RIGHT AFTER SHOOTING LIGHT AND I DID NOT KNOW THERE WERE OTHER GUYS NEAR ME, AS STATED VERY DENSE THICKETS AND ROLLING TERRAIN WHERE WE WERE AT.
No disrespect meant here, just my opinion.
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Post by deadeer on Sept 12, 2014 1:50:54 GMT -5
Wilms, no disrespect on my answers either. It may have sounded harsh when I reread it. No big deal, just the passion we each have for this sport I guess. The threat of losing a deer to another hunter is not that great. If I had a bloodtrail and followed it to a deer and someone else was trying to claim it, there would be a serious problem I can assure you. They would not win because I would have the CO there to handle it. Only a phone call away, and at the park on duty during the hunt. The buck I lost last year had the bloodtrail stop at a puddle, then gone. I am sure someone snatched it up on a mule and off it went. That's ok, as long as it didn't go to waste. Chance you take, never happened to me/us personally before this but have heard stories. It is not as bad as it sounds with other hunters, but they do wander around and that makes for tough hunting sometimes. Still worth it as far as I am concerned because deer can put on some serious size and age with limited hunting pressure. They are regulated each year as to whether they need a hunt or not. So sometimes they skip a year or two. Plus those old deer are smart and masters of deception. I have seen two big bucks there that hid in plain sight. One was 10yd off the road in a safety zone, standing in a 10ft wide brush row, noticed him a couple hrs after light while driving to help my bud load his deer, and he was still there when we left before dark. They cut the hunt off 2 hours before dark to give everyone time to clear out. Then I saw a big buck bedded in a clump of grass 40 or 50yds from the entrance shack, also in a safety zone. So those deer know what's going on!
Jay
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Post by bestill on Sept 12, 2014 4:52:35 GMT -5
I vote shoulder shot . I live in se indiana's steep bluffs. And near big creek.. i would estimate ive killed over 100 whitetail deer in 29yrs of hunting. I went thru a period of head shooting all does until i had my second long recovery on a 2" low shot to the jaw thats just no good. Never was much on neck shot. And do to thick cover and heavy creek flow have lost a few deer over the years from lung shots with 45 bullet small hole and minimal blood trail. So for me i have yet to loose a deer from smashing its shoulders(lips in the dirt). Yes it does waste some meat ive cut alot of deer and id guess meat lose would be appx 3 lbs. So if i take marginal jaw shot or unable to recover deer i loose 30 plus pounds meat. Thats 10 deer shoulders..
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Sept 12, 2014 5:02:08 GMT -5
Deadeer,
No problems here. I have to remember that I am blessed to not have to deal with others on the posted land we hunt on. (posted by us) No cliffs or guys crawling around everywhere. I am lucky. There are property lines of course, but they are ones we can cross if we are truly after a deer that was hit on our side.
High shoulder shot seems like the biggest target. Head and neck seem risky. With all the kicked up and spooked deer being talked about, that neck and head must be moving a lot. Stay as close to the boiler room as possible and take out the shoulders I guess would be my choice
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Post by 10ga on Sept 12, 2014 8:08:24 GMT -5
Remember that accuracy is the most important factor and no matter what you choose use your most accurate rifle with the most accurate loading should be the 1st choice. My vote is for the .458 cal 300 BO through the shoulder. With that bullet the shot can be made at almost any angle on any deer.
I too hunt park deer herd reduction hunts but it is tightly controlled and each pair of hunters has a specific zone to be in. Wandering and jump shooting is really not possible in those places, portable tree stands required. However you do want to anchor your deer PDQ. I usually use my conversion and take the high shoulder shot with 200 SST. Longest runner I've had was about 15 yards on a low shot, mostly DRT. Personally I prefer rib shots but that is not always the best choice as per this thread.
Good hunting, 10
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Post by cuda on Sept 12, 2014 8:50:39 GMT -5
I am disabled and 60 and can not track deer at all. So I always use a high shoulder shot and plant them where they stand. And there is enough bone to stop a 300gr .458 bullet at 100yds. So if there are others that are hunting around you that it will not hurt anyone else. I tell my sons to shoot the lungs or heart to save more meat and they do not get far.
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