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Post by Dave W on Mar 17, 2009 19:56:14 GMT -5
No clue here either.
Kind of odd how the early shots strung vertical and then went horizontal at the end.
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Post by edge on Mar 17, 2009 20:20:29 GMT -5
Looks like a big glob, but whatever I suggest you will come up with a reason not to try it...so you are doing fine! Keep up the fine work.
edge.
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Post by ET on Mar 17, 2009 21:27:40 GMT -5
Richard
Looking at your group with a central cluster and outer random directional spread with my limited past experience it keeps saying to me Bore Temp. If your 1st and numerical progressive shots where in the center of the cluster I would then say fouling was a factor.
With sabot shooting I always look at the sabot as the key player. It grips the bullet to apply the necessary RPM for stabilization, for proper bullet release upon leaving the bore and sealing the bore for acceleration from hot expanding gases. Certain Temp changes affects the firmness and elasticity property of the plastic and in turn affects the role it plays.
Just my 2-cents offered here.
Ed
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Post by smitty on Mar 18, 2009 8:24:02 GMT -5
Richard have you tried shooting any of your most accurate loads without using the rem oil patching between shots ? I'd try shooting a few groups without patching between shots. I understand the rem oil patch makes loading smoother as I've tried it in the past but felt like it effected the accuracy. One of my guns likes a patch between shots so it gets a denatured alcohol patch between shots. And all my Savage Ml's like a dirty breech plug also. Just a thought.
smitty
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Post by savedbyjc7 on Mar 18, 2009 10:44:18 GMT -5
in my ml i have found that i need a clean breech plug, or my groups open quite a bit. i drill it out every 50 shots. with 5744 it drills one holer's, submoa. my son's ml has a more generous bore, haven't found the right combo for it yet. good posting, enjoy all the info. i do cool the barrel between shots, about 5 min.
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Post by BOBinIN on Mar 18, 2009 16:08:01 GMT -5
Here's my take on it...give the gun to Herman and ask him to run some of his best loads through it. I bet you'll see some results then, if not...you've got a nice tomato stake! Good Luck, BOBinIN
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Post by boarhog on Mar 21, 2009 0:52:58 GMT -5
I can relate to the frustration of trying to get a finiky rifle to shoot acceptable groups. A couple of mine have been converted into trade goods to lower the stress level.
Frankly, I am a bit worried about my new Savage. I wish I had found this board before I placed the order. It seems to be much more complicated than I imagined. My first range session was only about 12 shots before I ran out of light. I managed to leave my pre-measured powder loads on my loading bench, so I was forced to use a Lee 3.7 cc dipper of 4759 for all shots. I was able to get "On Paper" but my last 3-4 shots couldn't be called a "Group". I'll need to study this board a lot and be better prepared next time. Several things about smokeless ML have become evident.
First, I had no idea that temperature could play such an important role. Here in S Arkansas, I am likely to be shooting in 90 F + weather. With my work schedule, I have to shoot when I have a chance, not to mention the fact that our first ML season in Oct is often quite warm. I have purchased a thermometer for my ML shooter's box.
Second, it never dawned on me that I might not be able to use the same bullets, in my Savage, that shot pretty well in various other MLs.
Third, the staggering array of sabots out there have my eyes crossing. Yesterday, I looked on Harvester's WWW intending to place an order, but I only saw 1 red cr that said it was rated for smokeless. Now I need to read more to make certain that I order the proper models.
I'm sure there are many more numbers I could list. Hopefully I can make some progress by next deer season!
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Post by smitty on Mar 21, 2009 22:06:10 GMT -5
boarhog, You've made a good choice with the savge ML and it's hard to not get overwhelmed by all the different loads and info on this board. This board is full of great people with priceless knowledge so just ask questions. Savage book loads are a good place to start with and should build your confidence. 4759 powder was what I started out with a few years ago and it worked well in the 40 - 43gr range. "12 shots before I ran out of light" thows up the red flag for the warm barrel accuracy killer. It's very hard to do but you need to wait 10-15 minutes between shots as it's the nature of this beast. Slow down and enjoy the journey : )
smitty
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Post by edge on Mar 22, 2009 8:55:44 GMT -5
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Post by DBinNY on Mar 22, 2009 17:26:52 GMT -5
boarhog, If your goal is hunting then you only need to be able to make one good shot at a time. I hunt woodchucks in some pretty hot weather and have never found hitting them right where I intend to be a problem. All this without benefit of a barrel cooler. Shooting groups in 90* weather is another issue.
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Post by Richard on Mar 22, 2009 18:17:11 GMT -5
Actually the other day when I shot that last group that Edge referred to as a "glob" or something like that, I also shot the Savage book load of: 43 gr. 4759 with a Red Crush and a 250 gr. XTP. Yes, about 9 shots and it sucked also. There was a cluster with some five shots under 2" but it also had the flyers. I did not post it because I did not want to get bashed again as only shooting "shotgun patterns!" And Yes, I have tried (a few weeks ago) shooting a ten shot group using no cleaning at all.........and that produced no improvement over patching with my four drops of Rem. clean? And, I don't like the way the sabots go down the bore with out the cleaning regiment. Right now, I am just biding my time until I get my .45 barrel. Tuesday I am going to try the 46 gr. N-110 with the 250 gr. SST's and maybe I will have Herman shoot a group. However, after seeing him shoot a group last week with his pet load and getting a third shot flyer worse than mine, By the way, I just got a new scope from Natchez the other day and will test it on Tuesday. Its the Burris Tactical 30---3x9 with Posi-lock and the Ballistic Plex reticle. It is supposedly for heavy kickers. It has been my feeling that the posi-lock is the way to go for hard kicking rifles. So, at $229 I bought one (no adj. obj.) Richard
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Post by hunter on Mar 24, 2009 19:25:21 GMT -5
I have tried the 250 xtp's in both my savages and have not had good results. When I first got my savage it was summer and I thought that was the problem. I have tried them once again in cold weather with 42 and 43 gr. 4759 and was getting 3" clusters at 100 yds. Next trip out I am going to try to speed them up a little with 68-70 gr. 4198 and see if that helps.
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Post by Richard on Mar 24, 2009 19:45:34 GMT -5
Well, today I put together 15 powder charges of 67 gr. Re-7 which Herman seems to favor; along with the 250 S/W and short black mmp sabot. After getting the new scope adjusted I fired a 5 shot group. Shots 1, 2, 3 and 5 formed a horizontal 1.5" group. Shot #4 went high and turned the group into 2.5". This along with the cool rod and my usual cleaning regiment. I had Herman feel the way the bullet/sabot seats. He was duly impressed and asked if this was a "factory barrel?" It just felt so smooth. I then let Herman fire a 3 shot group using the exact same components and NOT cleaning as he does. He could immediately feel the difference in seating. He put two shots almost touching and the third one out to make it a 1 3/8" group. Not much difference from a 1.5" four shot group? Velocities with this load were in the 2430 fps range. A second six shot group put three shots in .4" four in 1.3" and five in 2.5" a sixth shot made it 3" Richard
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Post by rbinar on Mar 24, 2009 19:56:44 GMT -5
OK, so check out this target.............Doing everything the same as last week. 65* inside...52* outside Herman and Bill had the heat on when I got there too warm. Cool rod after each shot, patch with Rem clean followed by dry patch. Here is the load: 250 XTP, pointed up somewhat and fattened up somewhat with a short mmp sabot (.508+ diameter) and 46 gr. of N-110 and WW primer. Also changed scopes although I do not believe the other one had a problem. Put on a Swarovski 3x9. Here are the velocities: Note: I had to adjust the scope after shot #1 so it is not shown. #1 2407, #2 2408, #3 2413, #4 2404, #5 2402, #6 2410, #7 2413, #8 2399, #9 2400 and #10 2418. For an average velocity of 2407 fps and a Extreme spread of 18. Tell me this does not show that my loading procedure with the Rem clean and cool rod is not at least contributing to a consistent velocity?? So here is the target! Just give me an opinion on the problem if there is one or is it just the barrel? There are only nine shots in this group. Richard Richard I have an opinion on the target and other things. That doesn't make my opinion correct but because I've been wrong before I may as well tell you what I think. The bullet speeds indicate to me two things. 1 The load is very consistent and not the problem. That low of extreme spread shows I wouldn't spend a lot of time worrying about methods. 2 The load is the problem. Even though consistent many sabots, in fact almost all, don't stand up to N110 over 2325fps. I'd back down to a load that was as fast as possible but doesn't break 2325fps with N110. Sabots have gone through an evolution. Many are more resilient than even the recent past but they still have limits. The sabot may take more than 2400fps but few report increased accuracy with speed. So right off hand I'd say if there is a problem sabot stress would be high on the list. I notice many (but not all) of your loads tend to be on the fast end of the scale. I'd be curious to know what effect a slightly milder set of loads would do on the target and bullet timer. Of course there is another answer: the rifle might not be that accurate. In that case any and all changes will result in more of the same.
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Post by Richard on Mar 24, 2009 20:15:38 GMT -5
rbinar...........Thank you for you insight. You may very well be on the right track. I appreciate you input. Richard
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Post by Richard on Mar 25, 2009 16:26:04 GMT -5
rbinar...........I got to thinking and not to be argumentative, but how would you explain a stressed sabot and yet velocities having a low ES? If a sabot was stressing, wouldn't the velocity suffer? I failed to mention in my post that I also shot more 46 gr. N-110 loads, only using SW's instead of the short black mmp's. Having the 67 gr. Re-7/ 250 SW zeroed, my first shot dropped 22" low and gave a chrono reading of 2200 fps., a second shot at 1800 fps dropped 16" and a third at 2100 dropped, what Herman and I feel was either a double of the first shot (Oblong sideways) or in fact was an unstable bullet. In that case, there was a lost shot. Kind of sounds like sabot failure, with velocities dropping from 2430 last week to those three odd slower velocities? We were both confused. Would you consider that 67 gr. Re 7 load to be too high at 2450 fps? Richard
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Post by edge on Mar 25, 2009 21:45:15 GMT -5
I really can't believe that I am getting back into this thread What do you ( the generic you ) need to make a good accurate shot? Why do I use rigid sabots? Think about a sabotless bullet. How much can it yaw in the bore...perhaps 0.002 total. Inside of a sabot how much can a bullet yaw..... 0.050! The sabot can be perfectly intact, the velocity can be identical, but if the bullet squirms as it accelerates it can be facing left/right/up/down in the bore. A bullet needs to accelerate in a straight line and stay exactly in the center of the bore to end up inside a group at 100 yards. IMO, if you had a rigid sabot, then low SD's / ES's would almost have to result in good groups, but soft plastic does not ensure the bullet will exit square to the bore. edge.
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Post by Richard on Mar 25, 2009 22:26:46 GMT -5
Edge........Thank you for the explaination. That is what I needed to hear. Finally we agree........ Can't wait to get my Pac-Nor back. Thanks Richard
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Post by rbinar on Mar 25, 2009 23:55:40 GMT -5
I can relate to the frustration of trying to get a finiky rifle to shoot acceptable groups. A couple of mine have been converted into trade goods to lower the stress level. Frankly, I am a bit worried about my new Savage. I wish I had found this board before I placed the order. It seems to be much more complicated than I imagined. My first range session was only about 12 shots before I ran out of light. I managed to leave my pre-measured powder loads on my loading bench, so I was forced to use a Lee 3.7 cc dipper of 4759 for all shots. I was able to get "On Paper" but my last 3-4 shots couldn't be called a "Group". I'll need to study this board a lot and be better prepared next time. Several things about smokeless ML have become evident. First, I had no idea that temperature could play such an important role. Here in S Arkansas, I am likely to be shooting in 90 F + weather. With my work schedule, I have to shoot when I have a chance, not to mention the fact that our first ML season in Oct is often quite warm. I have purchased a thermometer for my ML shooter's box. Second, it never dawned on me that I might not be able to use the same bullets, in my Savage, that shot pretty well in various other MLs. Third, the staggering array of sabots out there have my eyes crossing. Yesterday, I looked on Harvester's WWW intending to place an order, but I only saw 1 red cr that said it was rated for smokeless. Now I need to read more to make certain that I order the proper models. I'm sure there are many more numbers I could list. Hopefully I can make some progress by next deer season! My man! Since you are from the great and still gun friendly state of Arkansas you are going to be fine. Because here in South Arkansas (the best part of the state) we take care of our own. You need to get that gun to shoot? Betcha we can do that.
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Post by rbinar on Mar 26, 2009 0:01:27 GMT -5
rbinar...........I got to thinking and not to be argumentative, but how would you explain a stressed sabot and yet velocities having a low ES? If a sabot was stressing, wouldn't the velocity suffer? I failed to mention in my post that I also shot more 46 gr. N-110 loads, only using SW's instead of the short black mmp's. Having the 67 gr. Re-7/ 250 SW zeroed, my first shot dropped 22" low and gave a chrono reading of 2200 fps., a second shot at 1800 fps dropped 16" and a third at 2100 dropped, what Herman and I feel was either a double of the first shot (Oblong sideways) or in fact was an unstable bullet. In that case, there was a lost shot. Kind of sounds like sabot failure, with velocities dropping from 2430 last week to those three odd slower velocities? We were both confused. Would you consider that 67 gr. Re 7 load to be too high at 2450 fps? Richard Sabots are strange things. Most of the reason for my reply has to do with what happened to Chris when I stated that 55 grains of powder would be right for a 250 grain bullet at 2450fps. Chris was able to reach that speed with N110 with less powder but the catch was he could not do so accurately. When we traced back his load was most accurate under 2400fps. So even though the sabot survived it was not working well at speeds above a certain level.
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Post by 153 on Mar 26, 2009 6:18:07 GMT -5
Richard you are not crazy.I have much the same problems as you.One day decent group next day looks as if I shot at the target with buckshot.In a five shot group will always have at least one shot out by more than an inch at 100 and up too three inches at 200.Could be any of the shots 1-5.I have tried five powders,over 10 different bullets,eight different sabots and I forget how many different combos of the above.I am much like you I still think it is the barrel.I have sent back to Savage to have barrel replaced and they did send back a pretty target with a 1.5" three shot group.I can do this any day I shoot,just not every day.I know it is not me as I can take my 243,270 and 06 along and shoot 1" groups everyday,85% of the time.The Hornady 4500's are showing some promise and if I can get consistant 4" groups at 200 yards I will use them if not I will go 45 sabotless.I could have easily purchase a NULA for the time and money wasted trying to get my Savage to shoot consistant.My motto is good gun,sorry barrel.I say this because I have yet to read where anyone has had this type of problems with PacNor barrels.
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Post by edge on Mar 26, 2009 7:30:50 GMT -5
SNIP In a five shot group will always have at least one shot out by more than an inch at 100 and up too three inches at 200.Could be any of the shots 1-5. SNIP. 153, when you say that it could be shot #1, are you saying that it is out of the group, is the group near the point of aim? Basically what I mean is that I want a load that will give me first shot accuracy, very very close to POA! If, and I write IF the first shot does that, then by deduction if I wait long enough and follow my same regimen as after my LAST shot from the previous session then the rest of the bullets will be in the group! Put another way, if I can hit the bull consistently with my first shot but spray the rest then the problem is ME, and not the rifle and not the load. It might mean waiting 5 minutes, 30 minutes or two days to get the rifle back to square 1...but it is a time problem! edge.
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Post by Richard on Mar 26, 2009 11:52:07 GMT -5
Ok, let me back up a little........AND, I do want to keep this as a discussion and not a "head butting contest!" Two weeks ago I tried a load which shot good for me in the past, (10 shots in 2.5 ") The load was 46 gr. of N-110 with a 250 XTP, a short black mmp sabot. The average velocity for this load on 3/17 was 2407 fps with an extreme spread of 19 fps. My first shot out of ten was a "scope adjuster" so the actual group was nine shots: Shots #2, 5,6 & 9 meas. 1/2"; add Shot 4 and the group opened to 1.2", add #3 and 2.036", add #7 and 2.393", + shot 8 and 2.581" then shot 10 opened it to 5.2". The way I look at it, eight shots in 2.5" does not seem too bad for a factory Savage barrel with the short load sequence I use. Granted its not a one holer, but how many guys can shoot eight fairly stiff shots with less than 5 minutes between shots??? Does this show sabot failure or severe stress?? Let me continue.....On 3/24 I used the same load only I substituted the 250 SW bullet (everything else the same) to see if any improvement was there. Check this out! Shot #1 2214 fps and hit 16" low (from a group fired with 67 gr. Re7 and the 250 SW at 2435 fps) at 6:00 ?? Shot #2 was 22" low at 6:00 and shot #3 either doubled #2 (bullet hole oblong - wide) or it was an unstable 2nd. shot and in that case #3 was off the paper. This now sounds more like sabot stress or failure??? Yes or no? Why did the XTP shot OK and the SW failed the sabot??? RB? OK, now Edge comes along and introduces another point: &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& Why do I use rigid sabots? Think about a sabotless bullet. How much can it yaw in the bore...perhaps 0.002 total. Inside of a sabot how much can a bullet yaw..... 0.050! The sabot can be perfectly intact, the velocity can be identical, but if the bullet squirms as it accelerates it can be facing left/right/up/down in the bore. A bullet needs to accelerate in a straight line and stay exactly in the center of the bore to end up inside a group at 100 yards. &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& My initial reaction was.........Well yes, this seems logical and that is what my fingers typed and I closed the computer however,,,,,,,,, my mind got to thinking about what he said and I had to "re-think" my position or maybe modify it. Here goes....If my bullet is .452" in diameter and I use a short black mmp sabot which petals mic .027" (squeezed real tight with my micrometer) then my bullet/sabot combination is .506. My land to land is approx. .500. That means I'm squeezing .506 into .500 and yes, some of that will ooz into the groves, but really, how much wiggle room is there? Add into the equation the fact that the bullet allegedly obturates or gets fatter upon acceleration and the wiggle room gets even less. And here is another question I have wondered about....Does a bullet encased in a sabot really obturate? Is it not the sabot that takes up the force? Now sabotless is a different scenario since there is no cushion. Again, no head butting, just constructive thinking! Richard
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Post by jims on Mar 26, 2009 11:58:46 GMT -5
I may be wrong but I thought I saw a photo of one of edge's hard saboted bullets that was recovered and it was obturated pretty heavily.
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Post by 153 on Mar 26, 2009 13:19:40 GMT -5
Edge to answer your question,it could be shot 1,shot 2,shot 3,shot 4 or shot 5 that would open up the group.No consistency at all.Yes every once in a while I could get a sub MOA three shot group and the next three shot group would be near three inches.Always waited 15 minutes between shots and have tried shooting groups when outside temperature was anywhere from 20-90 degrees.My slug gun will consistently shoot 3" groups at 100 yards,my CF rifles will consistently shoot MOA at 100 yards and 2.5" at 200 yards.My Savage is consistently inconsistent.
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Post by edge on Mar 26, 2009 22:18:44 GMT -5
Edge to answer your question,it could be shot 1,shot 2,shot 3,shot 4 or shot 5 that would open up the group. SNIP. IMO, if shot #1 is not within 1 MOA ( or whatever criteria you choose )of your POA then you need a new load! Shot #1 is what defines your capabilities...period! ( assuming that you are a hunter ) edge.
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Post by edge on Mar 26, 2009 22:47:13 GMT -5
I guess that I am a masochist SNIP If my bullet is .452" in diameter and I use a short black mmp sabot which petals mic .027" (squeezed real tight with my micrometer) then my bullet/sabot combination is .506. My land to land is approx. .500. That means I'm squeezing .506 into .500 and yes, some of that will ooz into the groves, but really, how much wiggle room is there? Add into the equation the fact that the bullet allegedly obturates or gets fatter upon acceleration and the wiggle room gets even less. And here is another question I have wondered about....Does a bullet encased in a sabot really obturate? Is it not the sabot that takes up the force? Now sabotless is a different scenario since there is no cushion. Again, no head butting, just constructive thinking! Richard OK, take your sabot and measure the petal thickness with a micrometer ( not caliper ). I am sure that you can measure carefully and using proper technique you will get 0.027...PERFECT! NOW, use the micrometer like a "C" clamp and tighten the heck out of that petal! Does it still measure 0.027, I bet not! Now unless you exerted more than 40,000 psi you did not come close to what the expanding gasses do inside the bore! Have you ever heard of Gerald Bull and HARP? www.astronautix.com/articles/abroject.htmDo a search on the Internet for his sabots, and let me know if you find any soft polyethylene sabots used in HARP, I don't think that you will find any! Now if you follow this link and go down the page a ways you will see pictures of a bullet that obturated significantly inside of a rigid sabot! dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Savage&thread=2025&page=1edge.
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Post by Richard on Mar 27, 2009 16:00:53 GMT -5
Boy, there is a lot of reading that can be done when you Google that dude! If anyone is interested and does not want to read, I found this site with a good video and explanation: archives.cbc.ca/war_conflict/national_security/topics/626-3354/I did not, however, find any mention of his projectiles obturating but was impressed with the steel re-inforced plywood that was used as the sabot. So, OK, you picture illustrated the base obturating........Would this not further indicate that the bullet would be doing little "wiggling" no matter what type of sabot was used? Of course, it would be nice if we all had access to the type of machinery that could "pop" out those nice hard sabots used by Mr. Edge! Richard
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Post by edge on Mar 27, 2009 21:31:20 GMT -5
So my bullets can't squirm by virtue of the sabot being rigid, and you feel that a soft polyethylene sabot offers the same resistance to bullet tilting! Come on, try to meet me half way Why do you envision a bullet staying perfectly straight in your bore and groups all over the place? Isn't it likely that the bullet is NOT remaining square and centered in your barrel? edge.
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Post by Dave W on Mar 27, 2009 21:59:49 GMT -5
I have always thought the saboted bullet obdurates. When the petals on a recovered sabot are folded up to their original position, the area where the base of the bullet sits looks flared out and compressed like the base of the bullet swelled out toward the rifling. Just guessing though.
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