Updated range info..........

[Richard]

Two weeks ago I shot my MLII with the shortened 22" barrel. I had used my standard duplex of 10 gr. 5744 under 60 gr. of H4198. This load in my 24" barrel averages a consistent 2460 fps however in the 22" barrel a ten shot average was 2398 with an ES of 46 fps. Basically a 60 fps drop in velocity or, - 30 fps per inch. Yesterday, I had put together a similar duplex only, I raised the starter charge to 11 gr. of 5744 but kept the main charge at 60 gr. of H-4198. The results: shot#1 2456, #2 2441, #3 2444, #4 2438 & #5 2432 for an average of 2443 fps and a ES of 24 fps. In looking at the group #1, you will see shots 1 and 2 up high but then 3, 4 & 5 in a nice little triangle. The entire group was 4.472" but the last three measured 1.422" which I consider a fair Savage group. This then goes back to the 3 shot vs. 5 shot groups. Some feeling the first three are what you look at?? My contention is still that five shots paints a truer picture
Moving on to group #2 which was shot with my 24" SS barrel I went back to my standard 10/60 5744/H-4198 duplex with the following results: Shot #1 2462, #2 2478, #3 2463, #4 2473, & #5 2476 for an average of 2471 fps with a ES of 16 fps.
Here again, the first three shots do not tell the whole picture. Look at shots # 1 & 3....both together. Both are 1 fps apart. Then shots 2, 4 & 5 all within 5 fps but about 10 fps faster than 1 & 3??? And they grouped together. In my opinion, velocity, particularly with the heavy bullets is critical to grouping. These bullets, sabots and powder charges along with cleaning and "cool rod" procedures were closely monitored and still I had 16 fps ES and basically Two groups.
OK, so Herman got his hands on some of the new Hornady 200 gr. SST's and graciously let me play with them. I actually did not know he had them and only had a limited amount of various powder charges. These bullets measure .452" but I file knurled them up to .454" and put them in the Short Black MMP's for a diameter of .508" which is where all my combinations are set.
I fired three shots with 44 gr. of N-110 Group #3 Shot #1 2281, #2 2373 and #3 2179 for an average of 2278 fps (I only had three charges of that powder) That group meas. 3.2"
I then went with a duplex of 14/61 N-110/H322 and added a wool wonder wad. Shot #1 2554, #2 2475, #3 2490, #4 2450 and #5 2505 for an average of 2494 fps. Taking away shot #1 which was much higher, the four shots averaged 2480.
The five shot group meas. 3.724", 4 = 2.252 and 3= 1.618". Here again, the first three shots did not form the smallest group, but rather shots 2, 3 and 4. Three shots vs. Five shots???
The group at the bottom was fired by Herman with his knight .45 since his chronograph was having an "off" day! ;D

Richard

[wilmsmeyer]

3 VS 5? How about a 20 shot group fired over 4-5 different days all inside 3 inches?

I guess whatever makes you happy. When 5 shot groups are 2 inches and under all the time, I feel comfortable hunting with that load. Then they have to stay within 5-6 inches at 200 yds..no bads.

When 4 shots tickle 1 inch and a fifth shot opens it to 3 1/2 inch....I will cringe. (at 200 yds that shot could be off the vitals) BUT...I may shoot that load 15-20 more times to see if that shot can be ruled out due to my shooting error (form, rest or bad squeeze) If I get a shot or 2 that strays out of the group...Bye bye.

This analysis will come down to hunter versus statistician. I'm a hunter first and picking little clusters out of a big group does not make me feel better when I line up on a deer I want to 10 hole.

[edge]

"Lies, d**n Lies, and Statistics" by Mark Twain

IMO, there are other factors involved and 5 shots may not really be better. You may want to experiment with another 30 seconds of barrel cooling. I am not saying that it is a problem, but it may be.

Why do I say that you ask

Look at the horizontal spread of your first shot across many groups:

This thread( actually #1 and #2 in each group is almost a clone)


From January 27th:


From January 15th:
[/quote]

These were using many different loads over days, yet the first shot seems to consistently very close left to right!
Is heat an issue, perhaps.
Obviously it is most likely not technique or bedding, and velocities are fairly consistent within each group.
Yes, 5 shot groups show more of a problem, but IMO, the 5 shot groups do not give an indication of what the problem is.

edge.

[Richard]

Well Edge......I would sure like to find out, cause when I do, Herman and I will be better shooters for sure. He had the same BS the other day also and everyone on this board knows Herman can shoot. Everytime he would get two shots together and then the third one several inches out........He would say: "d**n Muzzleloaders!" So its not just me! I'm hoping the .45 Pac-Nor will cure some of this problem.
How would you explain shots in the middle or end of a five shot string (when the barrel is "allegedly" warmer) grouping better than the first three? Inquiring minds want to know...I want to know?
Richard

[edge]

How long do you wait between groups?

You shoot targets with multiple bulls, why not shoot what you consider to be your best load.
Label the target 1 through 5 and shoot all of your first shots on target 1, 2nd on #2, etc. and shoot them until you have five your 5 shot groups.
Target #1 will always have the greatest amount of wait time.
There may be order in the disorder and we are just not seeing it through the clutter!

I remember reading the story about the Secrets of the Houston Warehouse and Virgil wrote that some rifles shot certain patterns and could call each shot in order.

edge.

[Richard]

I am not quite sure I am following what you mean? Hear me out. I start out with a cold barrel (relatively speaking) The temperature is 58* and we are now shooting outside where I have a thermometer permanently mounted. After firing the first shot, the barrel still feels cold, but I still put the cool rod in anyway just so I can keep everything the same as possible. If its 58* outside, my barrel, no matter how long I wait, can never get any colder. Right? With the cool rod it is probably more like 40 -45* on the interior. I continue to do this every shot. I never heat the barrel up and then cool it, I keep it constantly cool every shot. So, when you say: "You may need to wait longer in between shots", I say to myself, wait for what? Its 58 and it isn't getting any colder. Does that make sense? Shot to shot my barrel is going to be pretty much the same.
If I were to do what you say.........Shoot the first shot on target one, the second on target two..................up to five, Then start back at target one with my 6th. shot, then my 11th. and 16th and 21shot. In other words, fire a total of 26 shots and keep rotating targets? Is that what you mean? If so, what will it tell me?

So anyway, I'm shooting with Herman and he says: Rich, take a look at that target! So I look thru the spotting scope at his 100 yard target and see what looks like two holes about 3/4 - 1" apart. I said that looks good, now lets see you put the third in there........He said, that is three shots? d**n, it looked like two holes to me. So, I'm straining my eyes and see a "half-moon" on the top edge of his wood frame about 4 inches from the two holes. Herman, I think I see your third shot on the frame. He said no, thats probably an old hole. Later inspection of the target showed only two holes Herman said....d**n muzzle loaders
I think its the nature of the beast and I'm hoping the .45 custom Pac-Nor will smooth out the rough edges of the .50 Savage.
What bugs me is I take my 7/08 XP-100 with 15 inch Hart barrel, custom center-grip stock, Harris bi-pod, 2 - 7X Burris long eye relief scope and ammunition I loaded in 1997 (had not shot this pistol since 97' when I killed a antelope at 156 yards) and put the first five shots in 1.060" Then my friend Bill proceeded to bust 6 for 6 clay birds at 300 yards with it. All he could say was: d**n, that gun flat out shoots! Then I can't get a 12 lb. ML to shoot consistent groups. I guess SW was right when he told me............You don't go to a benchrest match with a factory barrel do you?
Should hear tomorrow whether I can order a new Pac-Nor
according to the girl at the UPS store.
Richard

[edge]

Never mind you are doing fine as you are.

edge.

[rexxer]

Richard

Many people on this board have always had good words to say about your bedding jobs and other mods. I know you have quite the bench rest background and I'm sure your are particular in your loading.You seem to keep excellent records,shoot alot, and pay attention to wind. It also seems like your Savages shoot some of the worst groups I have ever seen on this board. You must have some of the worst luck getting a good shooting barrel because some of your groups make my eyes hurt! ;D Really .I'm sure its frustrating when you do all these things right and they just don't shoot.You pick up another gun and it shoots fine.

I'm curious to see the difference when the pacnor is up and running. Good luck with your UPS dilemma! Its nice to see both sides of the extreme with the Savages. Harley's gun seems to shoot almost unreal at great distance while other guns seem to struggle at the 100 yard line. My gun,since I know the shooter will probably struggle at the 100 yard line.


I do think it nice when a more accomplished shooter struggles some to find the right answers. With Richard's persistence I bet he will get it right!

[younghunter86]

Rich,

Here is my take on what edge was thinking. Do the 5 different target routine as described. Then keep the targets and start with them again the next day for your first 5 shots... or wait until the barrel has reached the temperature it was before shooting your first shot, as in waiting extended periods of time. Just my thoughts, but they're cheap.

[12ptdroptine]

D*M Muzzel Loader's anyway....Now where have I heard that?

[Richard]

Look............If all I did was concentrate on one or two loads, I could show many decent groups but...........How many shooters on this board have displayed the amount and number of different combinations that I have posted? I play with a lot of different and quirky loads and as a result, I get many S _ _ _ _ Y groups. Without a doubt! Unlike most of the members on this board, I do very little hunting anymore so I am not interested in just developing a load to kill deer with. I already have that. I figure somewhere along the way, I might just stumble on the "Holy Grail" ;D Like that XP-100 and several other I own, they have custom benchrest barrels on them and they flat out shoot. I have loads developed for them and I get tired shooting one hole groups with them. It just wears out the barrel! ;D
The loads for those 200 grain bullets I got from Herman were actually meant for 250 gr. bullets. I just tried them for the heck of it. The one load where I upped the starter was just to show the increase in velocity.
To me, waiting for a barrel to get colder than the ambient temperature when it is already colder is a no brainer. Cold is cold.
Richard

[rbinar]

8-)What do you think the targets are telling us? I wonder if you feel the 5 shot groups are showing us the rifle is less or more accurate than a 3 shot group would say.

It seems to me the targets show some load adjustment might tighten patterns. However you may not be trying to show how tight you can make the rifle group. I don't know for certain but I'd say 3 shot groups would tell me the same thing.

I don't mind admitting ignorance. There are reasons for 5 shots beyond my purposes. However in most cases I need to know what will shoot fairly accurate in a minimal amount of shots. For hunting rifles three very close holes are enough to provide confidence. If it was a target rifle then even 5 shot groups may be too small a sample.

In any case I'm trying for a simple answer first and if none is available then I have to tax the few brain cells that still work.

Since the first three shots in the five you shot were not the best three. I feel those three shots would tell me what I already stated about these loads (in need of tuning) without an extra two shots. If tuning or another load wouldn't change things then I'd have reason to shoot more because I may need to decide if inherent accuracy was within my desires.

Under a circumstance when time wasn't a concern I might shoot five shots every time but I seldom have enough time not to manage it.

[Harley]

"Since the first three shots in the five you shot were not the best three. I feel those three shots would tell me what I already stated about these loads (in need of tuning) without an extra two shots. If tuning or another load wouldn't change things then I'd have reason to shoot more because I may need to decide if inherent accuracy was within my desires."

Richard, I copied that paragraph from RB's post because I want you to read it twice.

Harley

[bloodtrailer]

I have tried the barrel cooler Rod and found that it does not work as well as air cooling for me ( it might work well for others) I have also found in both my savages that they don't shoot best from a clean barrel. I know others have there own methods but fouled barrels and 15Min's(and I hate waiting)between shots works! Less if its cold outside(10mins.) if not I get two very close and a third out of the group. I just take a 22 and shoot between loadings with it.

[Richard]

Harley........Why then did the last three shots group well......and, they were very close together in velocity. In the other group, the two higher velocity shots grouped together and the three shots of lower velocity grouped together?
What I do notice is that the lighter 250 gr. bullets shot at higher speeds........maybe.....above 2400 fps, usually have less verticle dispersion with reasonable differences in velocity. Yet the 300 gr. bullets show marked differences in verticle with small differences?
Has anyone ever taken a load that shot real good on one day.......then went to the range on another day and it did not shoot near as good? I sure have and I shoot with Herman every week and have heard him complain about the same thing?
Richard

[Harley]

Richard, I know how frustrated you are. I admit I've long since stopped looking at all your groups and data; there's just so much of it I got tired trying to make sense of it. That's not a fault of yours, maybe just a limitation of my own.

I CAN answer the question in your last paragraph. No, not since I started with the .45 have I ever had a load that shot much, if any, differently from one session to the next. And that's a major problem for you, isn't it? If you can't depend Tuesday on data ("maybe", "usually", "reasonably") you collected Monday, you're not going to learn enough to make progress, no matter how careful, thorough or good you are.

I admire your determination; in your place I would park that rifle and wait for my Pac-Nor barrel to arrive.

Harley

[rbinar]

Mar 13, 2009 19:30:52 GMT -5 Richard said:

Has anyone ever taken a load that shot real good on one day.......then went to the range on another day and it did not shoot near as good? I sure have and I shoot with Herman every week and have heard him complain about the same thing?
Richard

Have I ever? You bet I have. I've worked on a 10ML so long I wanted to break the dang thing over a tree. I received a brand new out of the box 10ML with a beautiful stock and couldn't make it shoot for nothing. More than one customer wanted to have it but I couldn't sell it because I didn't want it out I sold something that wouldn't shoot.

When one of these things gets the "near accurate" desease it can be really bad. The rifle I refer to above was bedded, third pillared, had a very good trigger, no mechanical problems at all and still would look fairly good one day and terrible the next.

It's not that I tried to make it shoot what I wanted either. I tried 458 bullets with thin sabots, duplex, factory loads, and several others. When it won't do it won't do. About the only thing I never tried was polishing the barrel.

This same rifle is now wearing a 45 barrel and shoots great, sabots or no sabots. I don't to this day know what the problem was.

With your rifle all I can say is I see maybe two things that you could try. They may not work but if you have to have an answer it may give an idea of what could show promise.

The first is shoot a 458 bullet (I wouldn't be surprised if you reply. "I have") with a good fitting sabot. Second is back off slightly on load. I didn't like the target where the bullet was lost by more than a foot. Only sabot disruption normally does that. This is a limited suggestion because some of the loads mentioned are fairly hot (44 grains N110 300 grain bullet and 70 grain H4198 duplex) and others mild (only 2500fps with a 75 grain N110/H322 duplex) so disruption can't be the case every time.

If you find what cures this bug I'd like a consult.

[Deleted]

Richard, that is precisely the reason I am taking a breather from the pacnor installation as I type this, good groups one sesssion, wouldnt shoot for crap the next. I think one of my problems was the barrel nut was loose, when I leaned on the wrench slightly, off it came. I was expecting to whack it with the mallet but not so, anyway maybe if nothing else we can get some consistency from the pacnors.
one more thing I discovered, when I set the new barrel in I had to relieve one side of the stock, after some investigating the savage lug was .002 + thicker on one side, thus creating an alignment problem with the new lug & barrel, no big deal just some sanding.
when I finish I plan to post some pictures, shooter or not it should look ok........Bill

[dans]

Richard, just keep shooting and posting the results. I learn somthing everytime. Appreciate all you go through to post the info. Thanks.

[Richard]

RB...........I was starting to think I was the only one who experienced this problem! Tuesday, if the weather cooperates, I am going to concentrate on two loads: A 250 XTP with a Red crush sabot and 42 gr. of 4759 and 46 gr. of N-110 with the same bullet/sabot combination. The N-110 load had given me a 2.5" ten shot group on one occasion. The 4759 being Savages book load. Maybe I'll even try 60 gr. of N-120 with a .458/300 gr. bullet. All this just killing time until I get my .45 (again)
Richard

[Savage Shooter]

Mar 13, 2009 8:56:31 GMT -5 bloodtrailer said:

I have tried the barrel cooler Rod and found that it does not work as well as air cooling for me ( it might work well for others) I have also found in both my savages that they don't shoot best from a clean barrel. I know others have there own methods but fouled barrels and 15Min's(and I hate waiting)between shots works! Less if its cold outside(10mins.) if not I get two very close and a third out of the group. I just take a 22 and shoot between loadings with it.

I have been waiting for someone to point this out!

I have tested extensively with barrel cooling methods and I have not found ANY cooling method to mimick air cooling.

Any method of quick cooling is going to introduce condensate to some degree and it affects groups considerably.

If you are going to quick cool a barrel you are going to have to give some minimum "dry out" time to reach ambient humidity conditions before shooting.

ANY lubricity change of the bore (moisture) is going to adversely affect accuracy.

Bottom line, in my testing all loads I tested shot better natural cooling than quick barrel cooling.

Some of you guys that are still shooting with coolers test and let us know. It will really showed up for me at 200 yds. Even extra patching to assure dryness of bore changed accuracy too.

[Harley]

I've got no axe to grind, vested interest, or dog in this fight (so to speak) since I no longer use a cooler or shoot sabots; BUT, I never experienced moisture problems when barrel cooling. Maybe it's because my barrel cooler did its job in less than one minute and I swabbed immediately after cooling (before loading), although that swab never had any moisture on it. I shot in 90+ temperatures, too.

Harley

[edge]

Harley, if you get consistently good groups then heat is obviously not a factor. However if you tend to get shotgun patterns and the first shot is regularly the best shot then heat cannot be excluded as a problem.

A couple of years ago a few members bought temperature sensing instruments to check the bore temperature. The amount of heat going into the barrel is a hefty portion of the total energy of the load. IIRC there is about the same energy into the barrel as heat as the energy in the fired bullet!

Unless you can measure the temperature of the center of the barrel, then you really don't know how much you have cooled it.
As an example:
On a hot summer day the hood of your car gets too hot to touch. If you take an ice cube and hold it on the hood that area will get cool enough to touch, but if you remove the ice cube that same spot will heat right back up since you did not cool the whole hood.

IMO, if the cooling rod does not come out of the barrel warm then you certainly have not removed enough heat!
If it comes out warm, then it also is above ambient temperature also!

edge.

[Harley]

Edge, for a change I understand everything you are saying. These are points you've tried to make before and I agree with all of them. My own barrel cooler, however, was an exception to all others that I know about: it was continuously ice water-fed by circulating pump so that the rod never warmed.

I did get those shotgun patterns (mostly like an open-bore) before developing the pump; I got them again any time I didn't use the pump. With the pump I could shoot half-inch or better groups; without it I couldn't stay on the paper. Heat was an easy bottom line and there was no way around it for me. Not even a first shot from a non-cooled barrel could be depended upon in Georgia's summer temperatures. That's why I shoot a sabotless .45, now.

Harley

[8ptbuk]

Here goes a wild Idea !!!!! After reading these post I had a brain storm !!!! Ha !!! Ha !!! Why not take 2 thermometers and use one to measure the outside Temp. and The other one modified to lower down the barrel. When the two temps. match up, fire another shot and so on. Crazy Anybody tried this

[Richard]

Savage shooter......I run two patches down the barrel after the cool rod comes out. One with four equally spaced drops of Rem. bore cleaner (which barely does anything to the patch) and one completely dry. No moisture. Upon removal of the cool rod, it comes out feeling either slightly warm or about neutral (neitgher hot nor cold)
Richard

[edge]

PS heat energy usually shown in BTU's would be proportional to mass!

A 3/4 pound 32 degree aluminum rod / 5 pound 100 degree steel steel barrel!

The steel barrel has 7 times the mass of the aluminum rod...also one reason that I used a 2+ pound copper cooling rod!


edge.

[Savage Shooter]

Richard...I had very poor results with the Rem Oil also!

[Richard]

OK, so check out this target.............Doing everything the same as last week. 65* inside...52* outside Herman and Bill had the heat on when I got there too warm. Cool rod after each shot, patch with Rem clean followed by dry patch.
Here is the load: 250 XTP, pointed up somewhat and fattened up somewhat with a short mmp sabot (.508+ diameter) and 46 gr. of N-110 and WW primer. Also changed scopes although I do not believe the other one had a problem. Put on a Swarovski 3x9.
Here are the velocities: Note: I had to adjust the scope after shot #1 so it is not shown.
#1 2407, #2 2408, #3 2413, #4 2404, #5 2402, #6 2410, #7 2413, #8 2399, #9 2400 and #10 2418. For an average velocity of 2407 fps and a Extreme spread of 18. Tell me this does not show that my loading procedure with the Rem clean and cool rod is not at least contributing to a consistent velocity?? So here is the target! Just give me an opinion on the problem if there is one or is it just the barrel? There are only nine shots in this group.
Richard

[wilmsmeyer]

I have no idea what your problem could be....but you sure have some. It's a pattern.

See what I mean about picking a great 4 shot group out of a horrible 9 shot group? Doesn't help ease the pain.

If that were me and my gun, I would have stopped shooting a long time ago. Just me.