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Post by huntmeister on Sept 11, 2011 20:31:37 GMT -5
(LONG POST) Today Tar12 and I met up at his conservation club and did a little shake down with my new Encore / SMI rifle. 3 powders, 4 bullets, 3 sabots and 7 hours later I think we found some promising combinations. (Rick feel free to add to or correct me as needed  )Started with some 4759 and the groups were so so...I think this winter I may play around with that one and see if I can do better. Then stepped up to some n110 and it was obvious that the gun wasn't gonna play well with that one. 42gns and we were blowing RCR sabots under 250gn bullets. Rick had brought several 60gn vials of his much favored n120 and suggested we give some of it a go. We tried this powder with some 300gn rem 457's, 250gn FTX's and 250gn Barnes TEZ's. From the get go it was apparent that the rifle liked this powder. I got a very good group with the 300's and then switched to the Barnes. After 3 rounds of those we were thinking we had THE load for this gun. 3 rounds touching, making one big hole and with the Barnes which I REALLY like for hunting. We took a short break and decided to try that combination again to validate it. Next 3 were probably a 12" group at best  major letdown. We scratched our heads for a few, visited the target for some serious scrutiny and came to the decision that the 1st stellar group was most likely 2 rounds, one of which didn't stabilize and a complete miss. We were sharing the range with others and couldn't scrutinize each round like we would have preferred. These two groups were with the RCR sabot. We sat down and started discussing what to do next when I recalled a conversation with Ron at SMI about sabots...he was very adamant about using the short black harvesters with both the 250gn hornady and barnes. Sooooo we loaded up some more n120, short blacks and the ftx's. 5 rounds later this is the result...  Two vials of n120 left, I say why don't we give the Barnes another try with the short blacks? So we did. I SO wish we had 1 more vial to make a 3rd shot with and somewhat validate this one group. I'm looking thru my scope and I cannot tell where it went. We walked down and looked it over and decided it must have been a BIG flier but the chrony confirmed just a 30FPS difference. We pulled down the targets and inspected the range required yellow plastic backboard...sure enough you can see ever so slight of a 2nd hole just outside of the 1st one. paper target view...  and the yellow backboard view...  So I'm now looking for some n120 and forward to another range trip to hopefully find a hunting load for this fall. Rick, BIG THANKS buddy for helping me today!! I learned a bunch and I think we got along very well... I hope we have the beginnings of a great friendship.  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2011 20:51:46 GMT -5
looks like a deer killer for sure!!! you were in good hands today....
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Post by jims on Sept 11, 2011 21:24:05 GMT -5
Nice outing.
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Post by tar12 on Sept 11, 2011 22:14:24 GMT -5
Another Smokeless junkie is born! ;D As Mark stated the N110 in the 1-32 Douglas was a no go at 42 grns. Several of the .457 Rem groups and FTX and SST groups were under a 1 in. with the N120.Mark you have these to bank on. Mark was wanting a bona-fide solid 200 yd performer running at least 2300 fps and I believe we have met and exceeded his criteria with several of these loads. As Mark pointed out the last 2 shots were with the TEZ and looked very promising and he is going to lose sleep until we validate that one! ;D Something I found humorous today was the fact that he started out at 50 grns of 4198 prior to this session and concerned about recoil and today he ran the entire gamut including my favorite .50 load of N120 and a 300 grn .457/.458 bullet and when we parted company it was with a handshake and smile on his face and his shoulder was not in a sling! ;D We are planning another range trip in the very near future with REL-7 in the mix. I think it will compliment the 1-32 twist nicely. It was a pleasure shooting with you today Mark..let me know when you can get free again and we will go burn some powder!
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Post by Jon on Sept 12, 2011 0:29:56 GMT -5
Very informative and good report. Thank you guys
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Post by huntmeister on Sept 12, 2011 5:19:12 GMT -5
Another Smokeless junkie is born! ;D As Mark stated the N110 in the 1-32 Douglas was a no go at 42 grns. Several of the .457 Rem groups and FTX and SST groups were under a 1 in. with the N120.Mark you have these to bank on. Mark was wanting a bona-fide solid 200 yd performer running at least 2300 fps and I believe we have met and exceeded his criteria with several of these loads. As Mark pointed out the last 2 shots were with the TEZ and looked very promising and he is going to lose sleep until we validate that one! ;D Something I found humorous today was the fact that he started out at 50 grns of 4198 prior to this session and concerned about recoil and today he ran the entire gamut including my favorite .50 load of N120 and a 300 grn .457/.458 bullet and when we parted company it was with a handshake and smile on his face and his shoulder was not in a sling! ;D We are planning another range trip in the very near future with REL-7 in the mix. I think it will compliment the 1-32 twist nicely. It was a pleasure shooting with you today Mark..let me know when you can get free again and we will go burn some powder! Yes, much time spent tossing / turning last night thinking about those TEZ's. We definitely exceeded my goal in the speed department and now that we have it's probably gonna be virtually impossible to convince myself to slow her down. With a lead sled I can tolerate and shoot hard recoilers rather well. My fear is when I get off the sled and on my shoulder my accuracy will suffer.  I suppose only time and practice will tell whether I can overcome that issue. I will pursue a "shoot more get better" mindset on this and see if I can shoot my way thru my potentially mental only roadblock. ;D |
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Post by ET on Sept 12, 2011 6:10:19 GMT -5
Huntmeister
I’m happy to hear you had a great day and some really impressive results.
You couldn’t have had a better mentor and helper to get you going in the right direction.
Hope you won’t mind a question here concerning the Harvester sabots. I know the RCR is harder to load and in some cases is almost impractical with a certain bullet combination with a tight bore. Now my curiosity is about how much load resistance would you say was felt with the regular black harvester?
Ed
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Post by dave d. on Sept 12, 2011 6:57:53 GMT -5
very nice results. Looks like you guys had a blast ;D. Look forward to the 200yrd groups.
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Post by pposey on Sept 12, 2011 7:17:18 GMT -5
Very nice when it works out like that!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2011 7:35:58 GMT -5
Glad you found the right food for your encore/smi conversion.
Those last two shots ,WOW...good for you. Tar you coming to Pensacola anytime soon ?, Bring some Full vials with you,lol.....
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Post by huntmeister on Sept 12, 2011 7:53:02 GMT -5
Huntmeister I’m happy to hear you had a great day and some really impressive results. You couldn’t have had a better mentor and helper to get you going in the right direction. Hope you won’t mind a question here concerning the Harvester sabots. I know the RCR is harder to load and in some cases is almost impractical with a certain bullet combination with a tight bore. Now my curiosity is about how much load resistance would you say was felt with the regular black harvester? Ed I am sitting here trying to recall how the different ones loaded...lots of things going on yesterday and having a hard time keeping all of it straight in my memory bank. I do recall the RCR's being very hard to load with the 300gn .457 rems. IIRC, the 250gn FTX's loaded about the same between the RCR and short blacks. I do recall the short blacks loading just a tad eaiser than the RCR's with the 250gn Barnes. Rick, feel free to jump in if you can recall details that add or correct my thoughts here. The next outing I will have paper, pen etc at hand and will try to take more detailed notes of everything. |
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Post by rangeball on Sept 12, 2011 9:22:00 GMT -5
This is pointing at something I was contemplating in the too tight is not right thread. In my douglas SMI .50, I also blow sabots with 42gr of 110 with a 250gr barnes in rcrs. It will shoot the 250gr xtps lights out though with the same dose. I bought the sabots Dan recommended, but never tried them. I had planned to at a later time as my gut was telling me the RCRs, while not a bear to load, were just too tight, but the tight is right mantra kept winning the battle in my mind. I then moved to the .50 thors sabotless and they shot so well I never looked back or tried the other sabots. Sounds like I should have. Great shooting |
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Post by dans on Sept 12, 2011 10:19:55 GMT -5
The right sabot can and will make all the difference. My NULA with the Douglas barrel 1 in 32 will only shoot black smooth Harvestor sabots well, everything else gives patterns not groups.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Sept 12, 2011 10:38:48 GMT -5
That is why i save my N120. I need to try it in my NULA's Douglas 1-32 barrel which also strongly prefers HSB sabots for nearly all loads. Smaller OD bullets do work with some MMPs and the MMP Orange is ok too. Mine is a really tight bore but the HSB still feels like it loads a bit on the easy side but with N110 it doesn't seem to matter. Hopefully with Re7 and N120 it wont matter either.
I want a good 300gr combo for it too but prefer the slower burners with 300gr bullets and above. Im going to try Re7 first but ive got some milder N120 loads ready to go just in case.
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Post by jims on Sept 12, 2011 10:44:00 GMT -5
I have an SMI .50 for a Savage action. I am not using it now but it much preferred the suggested SMI loads versus normal Savage loads.
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Post by rangeball on Sept 12, 2011 10:47:13 GMT -5
I also wrote some of my experience off to using the faster powder in a 1:22 twist.
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Post by tar12 on Sept 12, 2011 17:47:07 GMT -5
Mark the reason the RCR were tight was the fact I screwed up and handed you a .457 dia bullet to use with a sabot designed for .452 dia bullets. ;D I meant to hand you a .452 Smokeeter modified...The RCR that blew was used in conjunction with the .451 TEZ and 42 grn of N110. From the looks of the few sabots recovered the bullet(TEZ) drilled the sabot and the resulting oblong holes in the particle board confirms my suspicions.BUT the TEZ put 2 very close together with the Harvester short black....is the short black tougher? it appears to be...we will be collecting some insight on the next range trip.
Rangeball you will be interested in knowing that we did not blow any sabots with 42 grn of N110 and 250 xtps...hmmmmm....Tight is right to a reasonable point IMO. If it is to tight you run the very real risk of jeopardizing the integrity of the sabot before it is even fired by stretching the sabot beyond it original shape/form.
Dans you are spot on..the right/wrong sabot can make or break a combo.
GMB54....I have shot as little as 56 grns of N120 WITH .458 300 grainers with excellent results...but then again most combos that include the closest we can get to bore size .458s shot very well anyway. RE-7 should be a excellent powder as well with .458s..
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Post by ccchunter on Sept 12, 2011 21:04:46 GMT -5
Is the Barnes 250 a flat base bullet?
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Post by tar12 on Sept 13, 2011 5:31:55 GMT -5
Is the Barnes 250 a flat base bullet? The TEZ we were using had flat bases. |
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Post by huntmeister on Sept 13, 2011 6:01:16 GMT -5
Is the Barnes 250 a flat base bullet? Yes as Rick indicated they were flat base TEZ but Barnes also makes a boatail in this bullet TMZ which I have never heard any good reports on. |
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Post by rangeball on Sept 13, 2011 9:01:30 GMT -5
The RCR that blew was used in conjunction with the .451 TEZ and 42 grn of N110. From the looks of the few sabots recovered the bullet(TEZ) drilled the sabot...Rangeball you will be interested in knowing that we did not blow any sabots with 42 grn of N110 and 250 xtps...hmmmmm.... Tar, this was exactly my experience as well. I'm not sure it's tougher but if I recall from measuring way back when it's tighter with the same bullets. Been awhile since I checked though. |
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)Started with some 4759 and the groups were so so...I think this winter I may play around with that one and see if I can do better. Then stepped up to some n110 and it was obvious that the gun wasn't gonna play well with that one. 42gns and we were blowing RCR sabots under 250gn bullets.
major letdown. We scratched our heads for a few, visited the target for some serious scrutiny and came to the decision that the 1st stellar group was most likely 2 rounds, one of which didn't stabilize and a complete miss. We were sharing the range with others and couldn't scrutinize each round like we would have preferred. These two groups were with the RCR sabot. We sat down and started discussing what to do next when I recalled a conversation with Ron at SMI about sabots...he was very adamant about using the short black harvesters with both the 250gn hornady and barnes. Sooooo we loaded up some more n120, short blacks and the ftx's. 5 rounds later this is the result...
I suppose only time and practice will tell whether I can overcome that issue. I will pursue a "shoot more get better" mindset on this and see if I can shoot my way thru my potentially mental only roadblock. ;D
