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Post by huntmeister on Sept 4, 2011 20:36:54 GMT -5
Wow what a great day to go to the range! As promised a report of this noob's first day going smokeless. I started out with 45 grains of IMR4198, 250gn XTP and a short black harvester to get the scope dialed in. After a few shots I realized a shim would be in order so I got that done and back to punching paper. After a few more rounds I jumped up to 50gns of 4198...noticeable increase in recoil but definitely not unbearable. After a couple more rounds with the XTP's I switched to the 250gn FTX's, POI was very near the XTP's. Here is my last 3 rounds from the lead sled at 100 yds with the FTX's. I can usually tell if I pulled the shot but not certain this time around. Pretty happy with the 1st time out. The unmarked 4th round on this target was me off the sled to see how I would like the recoil. I'm no expert but the sabots looked good I thought. I took 2 shots at the 200yd range, one was about 11 inches lower than the 100yd and one was about 8 inches lower than 100 yard point of impact. After I got back home, I pulled the breech plug out which unlike the BP days was easy to remove and took a look down the bore. OMG what is all that junk! I pushed a patch through and snapped a photo of the stuff. I'm guessing it is pieces of the sabots?? It sure didn't appear to be unspent powder. I also put the cooling rod to work...I wrapped my hand around the barrel and could feel the heat slipping away! Thanks again Rossman!! I was thinking I would measure out some charges in 1 grain increments to say 55 and see if I can find a happy group in that range. Is that about how you guys do it?
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Post by pposey on Sept 4, 2011 21:37:28 GMT -5
di those pieces bend? I mean are the plastic or do they crumble or what?
and those sabots look great.
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Post by lwh723 on Sept 4, 2011 22:25:56 GMT -5
That looks like unburnt powder to me. 45-50grs of 4198 is way on the light side for a 250gr bullet. That's a misfire waiting to happen when the temp starts to drop this fall.
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Post by tar12 on Sept 4, 2011 22:58:11 GMT -5
That looks like unburnt powder to me. 45-50grs of 4198 is way on the light side for a 250gr bullet. That's a misfire waiting to happen when the temp starts to drop this fall. Ditto... that load is way to anemic. And that is unburnt powder.You should be starting in the 65-68 grn range.
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Post by huntmeister on Sept 5, 2011 6:29:22 GMT -5
I wish I could get a better shot of that stuff. I could absolutely be wrong but I don't think it is unburnt powder. At first I thought it was but when I did a visual inspection it was flat and had a plastic type feel to it. I will see if I can get a better photo. I was thinking unburnt powder would be easily crumble up into smaller pieces and this stuff does not crumble. As far as load size goes, the folks at SMI told me that I should be able to shoot as low as 40gns with no problems. Ron suggested I work up to the 55-65 gn range for topend performance and I do plan to get there but to start I was wanting to take it slow and easy and work my way up. I appreciate the comments, keep em coming as I can sure use them during my learning process!
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Post by huntmeister on Sept 5, 2011 6:57:43 GMT -5
OK, this is really bugging me. I just went out and re-examined the "stuff" and I think it may be powder. Its flat, doesn't crumble or crush up. I can get a piece in a pair of pliers and bend it a time or two and it does break. I took a few granules of fresh 4198 from the bottle and applied fire to them individually and then the same to the stuff. While the stuff wasn't even remotely close to being as energetic in its burn as the fresh 4198 it did burn and also seemed to have the smell of burnt powder.
Is this unburnt powder and if so why is it that I am getting it on the smaller charges? In my thinking, I would have thought too much powder would cause some to be unburnt. Please, educate me.
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Post by tar12 on Sept 5, 2011 7:12:50 GMT -5
Trust me in saying that this is unburnt powder.Unburnt powder will not ash or crumble as it did not ignite and did not burn! What you are looking at is powder that was exposed to heat but failed to ignite due to very low pressures and it flash glazed for lack of a better term. Besides what you are showing is way to uniform in size to be anything besides powder granules. I have never seen plastic fouling in any form look like that. The only way plastic is left behind is from a very hot load breaching the sabots limit and your load is no where near that. IF this was the case you would not simply push a patch through and remove the plastic left behind. Removing plastic fouling requires a lot of elbow grease and the remmants look like curly plastic shards. A blown sabot on the other hand will be shredded and malformed and looking nothing like it original form.
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Post by tar12 on Sept 5, 2011 7:21:50 GMT -5
You need pressure to complete the burn. It does not matter if it is a 40gr charge or a 70 grn charge...if the pressure is not there you will not acheive a complete burn. Are you all ears Grasshopper? lol
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Post by huntmeister on Sept 5, 2011 7:28:06 GMT -5
tar12, I'm believing you! I now want to understand why I am getting unburnt powder. I did not swab the barrel at all duirng the day at the range and I put 21 rounds down the tube. Could this be an accumilation of all those rounds or is it likely from one load? Seems this could create much inconsistency load to load especially if it is from one load.
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Post by huntmeister on Sept 5, 2011 7:29:58 GMT -5
You need pressure to complete the burn. It does not matter if it is a 40gr charge or a 70 grn charge...if the pressure is not there you will not acheive a complete burn. Are you all ears Grasshopper? lol by pressure do you mean seating pressure or? yes sir, I'm all ears!
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Post by DBinNY on Sept 5, 2011 7:37:24 GMT -5
You need pressure to complete the burn. It does not matter if it is a 40gr charge or a 70 grn charge...if the pressure is not there you will not acheive a complete burn. Are you all ears Grasshopper? lol by pressure do you mean seating pressure or? yes sir, I'm all ears! He means the pressure created by the burn of the powder. Light load = low pressure = incomplete burn.
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Post by ET on Sept 5, 2011 7:37:35 GMT -5
Huntmeister
I agree with Iwh723 and Tar12. Here I have to relate to what RB expressed in the past. He also did a pressure test of H4198 using 74gr in the 50Cal and that just reached the 30,000PSI mark. Here too he commented that a few grains less with IMR4198 would produce basically the same results. He also considered/felt that 4198 was better used with bullets that were heavier than 250grs. because of the possible temp affect on this powders burn rate.
RB was a true pioneer in the smokeless muzzle loading world and his experience passed on today still holds true IMO. I wish you good luck with using 4198 with a 250gr bullet when temps approach near freezing.
Ed
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Sept 5, 2011 8:24:01 GMT -5
I would use no less then 70 gr H4198 with a 250 gr bullet and have used as much as 80 gr. This was a recipe used for several deer seasons, and more importantly 100+ bench sessions in the spring, fall and the dead of winter.
You have nothing to worry about in those ranges. I always use a FED209A primer and have a tight fitting sabot.
Even with 300-325 gr bullets I would use at least 67-68 gr and normally use 70 gr. Never a misfire and certainly no residues that you are seeing here.
If you want the speeds you were getting with the light charges of H4198, I would rather get them using a powder with a faster burn rate....Alah...book loads. If you are recoil sensitive the loads that work with H4198 are loads that work your shoulder over.....but I see you have a sled.
Good luck and have fun....nothing wrong with starting at the low side.
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Post by huntmeister on Sept 5, 2011 8:43:44 GMT -5
I would use no less then 70 gr H4198 with a 250 gr bullet and have used as much as 80 gr. This was a recipe used for several deer seasons, and more importantly 100+ bench sessions in the spring, fall and the dead of winter. You have nothing to worry about in those ranges. I always use a FED209A primer and have a tight fitting sabot. Even with 300-325 gr bullets I would use at least 67-68 gr and normally use 70 gr. Never a misfire and certainly no residues that you are seeing here. If you want the speeds you were getting with the light charges of H4198, I would rather get them using a powder with a faster burn rate....Alah...book loads. If you are recoil sensitive the loads that work with H4198 are loads that work your shoulder over.....but I see you have a sled. Good luck and have fun....nothing wrong with starting at the low side. I am having fun.Yes, put me in the recoil sensitive category, I don't enjoy shooting a firearm that kicks the snot out of me. As far as speed I definitely want to increase that a bit, my goal is to be able to hunt with it to 200 yards without alot of holdover. This barrel has a twist of 1 in 32". What powders do you guys recommend for this twist, a 250gn bullet and cold weather hunting that Indiana typically delivers? Temps can be down below 0F but I would say typically 20's and 30'sF.
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Post by dans on Sept 5, 2011 9:25:57 GMT -5
IMR-4759 around 42 grains for the 250 and don't be reluctant to go up 1 grain at a time until you get good accuracy usually around 44 or 45 grains for me.
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Post by zakjak221 on Sept 5, 2011 9:35:35 GMT -5
Hunt, AA5744,Vitavouri N120 (if you can get it),or RL-7 are all good proven powders. Try a few different sabots as well--changing sabots can tighten your groups by 4" or more. MMP short black sabots,Red Harvester sabots are options. Your gun may shoot the 300 XTP's better too. As said before,you can start on the lower end of powder range and work up, but not anemic low. Stay after it! Mark
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Post by huntmeister on Sept 5, 2011 9:37:10 GMT -5
IMR-4759 around 42 grains for the 250 and don't be reluctant to go up 1 grain at a time until you get good accuracy usually around 44 or 45 grains for me. Thanks! What kind of speed are you getting and is yours a SMI with the same twist or other?
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Post by 10ga on Sept 5, 2011 12:13:46 GMT -5
dittos for dans "" ! I'd go to those .458s and bcr and 4759. It'll give you plenty of power to 200+ and no worry about ignition. If you just practice at the different ranges you'll see how good it really is. I have a sweet spot on one of my 50s at 38 gr 4759 with 250 or 300 bullets. Just a little hold over (practice practice and know your range) and those 300 gr .458s will plop right in there at 200 to 250 and kill any deer. I guess that's $.02 rolling around for ya. Good luck and good shootin! 10 ga
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Post by GMB54-120 on Sept 5, 2011 12:49:28 GMT -5
I dont have an SMI with a 1-32 Douglas but i do have a NULA with a 1-32 twist Douglas barrel.
41-43gr of N110 is excellent with upto a 275gr bullet. I haven't tried a heavier bullet with smokeless.
Slightly more SR4759 in the new "bottle" not the tin can will yield similar results. Roughly 1-3grs more than N110 with the same bullet and sabot.
Now this is in a 7lb (ready to hunt rifle) and recoil is VERY tolerable and fps is in the 2300fps range with 43gr of N110 with a 250gr bullet.
This gives you and idea of the recoil. Shot 3 is a large load of BH209 but all the rest are with a 275gr shot from 2100-2300fps.
On a sled with 43gr and a 260gr
Powder weight is part of the total ejecta weight and getting the total weight down will reduce felt recoil.
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Post by huntmeister on Sept 5, 2011 12:59:47 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies fellas and please keep em coming! GMB54-120, nice vids however I cannot view the second as it says private video when I select play.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Sept 5, 2011 13:06:04 GMT -5
Ok, it should play now.
That one is with a Harvester 260gr PT Gold. I had to try them with smokeless just to see how they shoot and they did awesome on paper.
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Post by huntmeister on Sept 5, 2011 13:09:06 GMT -5
it is working now, thanks!
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Post by huntmeister on Sept 5, 2011 13:40:08 GMT -5
Just to be sure, IMR SR 4759 listed on IMR's website and the IMR 4759 being referenced in this thread and in the load info files are the same correct?
When you guys talk about book loads, are you talking about the loads posted in pdf format in the load info sub-board here on Doug's site?
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Post by GMB54-120 on Sept 5, 2011 13:40:45 GMT -5
it is working now, thanks! Cool, i had it set to private instead of unlisted. I get too many wackos making comments so i limit who can view them and turn off comments usually. IMO N110 is one of the finest single based powders you can get. Its clean, consistent and easy to ignite. It even tolerates light 38gr loads for people looking for less recoil and still goes BANG every time reliably. That gets a 250gr close to 2000fps and is a cream puff to shoot. Chuck used that load in mine for his tiny girlfriend with outstanding accuracy. You can use the new SR4759 with similar results but it does take a tiny bit more powder. Its $6 cheaper a lb too but i love N110 and im willing to pay the extra since its so clean burning. Ive only shot a few shots with 4759 but Chuck (the previous) owner used it with excellent results too. For some reason the 1-32 Douglas barrels make a few more fps than the same load in a Savage according to other NULA owners but ive yet to verify that claim. I do agree with the others that your 4198/250gr FTX load is way too low for a good burn and the "glazed" powder comment is probably spot on. Thats why it didn't appear to be unburned powder to you. I strongly suggest looking for some N110. IMO it will provide what you want and my loads are not even quite max. Its hard to find in some areas and a bit over priced but in this case you get what you paid for. Best of luck and be safe.
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Post by cuda on Sept 6, 2011 13:09:56 GMT -5
I am disabled and I use 69gr of IMR4198 with a Rem 300gr .458 BCR and Win 209 in my Savage 50. And I can handle that load. You should be able to use that with a 250gr bullet with no problems.
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Post by huntmeister on Sept 6, 2011 13:50:53 GMT -5
I am disabled and I use 69gr of IMR4198 with a Rem 300gr .458 BCR and Win 209 in my Savage 50. And I can handle that load. You should be able to use that with a 250gr bullet with no problems. Glad you are comfy with it. We all have our own comfort levels, I know mine and 4198 isn't gonna cut it at the charges everyone says I need to be using. I have a lead sled to do developement / scope dial in with but after that I like to shoot often OFF the sled to get better at shooting under hunting conditions. Go ahead and call me a wussy ;D its OK. I know my abilities and I know that I would end up with a bad flinch when I got to the charge weight that 4198 apparently demands. I may play around with 4198 later down the road but right now I need a powder I can use for the fast approaching hunting seasons. Who knows, after messing with it awhile I may grow accustomed to the recoil but I will need some more time for that.
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Post by rangeball on Sept 6, 2011 13:54:48 GMT -5
Recoil with 42gr of N110 is very mild, about 23 ft#, and will move a 250gr bullet along at 2300 fps with great accuracy and near temp insensitivity.
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Post by huntmeister on Sept 6, 2011 14:15:28 GMT -5
I have located some 4759 and some N110. tar12 has agreed to lend a hand dialing the gun in. I look forward to that and GREATLY APPRECIATE his willingness to do so. I believe with his experience at this smokeless thing we will get something that I will be happy with for this years hunting seasons. Keep the comments coming fellas...I'm all ears and trying to learn. I will keep all posted on the progress. THanks to all.
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Post by rangeball on Sept 6, 2011 14:51:18 GMT -5
I predict great things
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Post by GMB54-120 on Sept 6, 2011 15:31:40 GMT -5
Im sure you and Tar will develop what you want with either of those powders.
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