|
|
Post by ET on Mar 21, 2011 22:24:52 GMT -5
I’m not looking to start any quarrels but need to know what others think or feel about exploring pressures that are basically equaling CF equivalent for loads in a muzzle loader?
The smokeless barrels are more than rated to handle these pressures but would you be comfortable using such loads in a muzzle loader?
A simple answer of Yes or No would suffice to answer my query.
For me the answer would be No.
Ed
|
|
j1r11
8 Pointer
Posts: 178
|
Post by j1r11 on Mar 21, 2011 22:55:23 GMT -5
I would not think twice. Steel is stronger than brass. Esp. after hearing about double charges and only slight bulges. See what happens if you double charge a pistol round---rather don't  |
|
|
|
Post by edge on Mar 22, 2011 5:51:19 GMT -5
YES...to a 45-70 lever action;
YES...to a 450 Marlin;
Not intentionally to a 458 win mag or Lott.
Certainly NOT with a non-lugged action to back up the BP especially if you don't know the thread ratings....but hey a bolt handle sticking out your face may make a new fashion statement ;D
edge.
|
|
|
|
Post by mountainam on Mar 22, 2011 7:32:59 GMT -5
I cautiously say yes. It's the responsible exploring that has brought us to this point in performance. Concerning Edge's point on thread ratings, I've tried to locate some of that information in some of my old engineering texts to no avail. But I do wonder if there has EVER been an incident where the threads were stripped from the breechplug and it sent rearward? I haven't seen them all ,but the ones I've seen seem to split the barrel and moreso on the stainless alloy than on chrome-moly. I don't own a T/C pro-hunter, but I would wince at the thought of shooting one in a .338 Win Mag than I would with a screwed-in breechplug in any ML caliber. The 32 tons of pressure from the .338 cartridge model is forcing the barrel away from the firing pin bulkhead and that small hingepin. While adding a screwed-in breechplug would seem to me to alleviate the amount of force exerted on those two points. I would like to find that info on the thread strain to compare it to the rear area that the locking lugs engage in a bolt rifle for a comparison.
|
|
|
|
Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 22, 2011 7:36:41 GMT -5
Yes to loads under 50K.
NO to loads over 50K.
|
|
|
|
Post by edge on Mar 22, 2011 7:58:14 GMT -5
A link for calculating threads: www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Screws/Thread_Calcs.htmlYou need to know the tensile and yield of the materials actually used for any meaningful estimate of strength. There is a downloadable program on Varmint Al's Look for NEW BOLT CALCULATOR. www.varmintal.com/aengr.htm50 kpsi = 8,237 axial load in a 45 barrel and use a 2x - 3x safety factor...IMO. make sure you use the WEAKER of the BP or the BARREL material!!edge. |
|
|
|
Post by pposey on Mar 22, 2011 9:40:39 GMT -5
I think we in general have backed down to more reasonable loads than some used to use,, heck remember the days of washers, sub-bases, little gun and other no no's that we now agree were not for the best?
I never used more than hotter factory loads but did use sub-bases for awhile,,, and shot alot of heavy 300 grain loads.
Now getting sabot less with heavy and hot loads yes I think we are getting close to some danger issues, not if everything goes right but if mistakes are made there is less wiggle room. I proved that shooting mild-mid powered saboted loads you can still bulge a barrel if you double load.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jon on Mar 22, 2011 10:20:26 GMT -5
I'm building a gun now that I figure will defiantly be pushing the envelope. And if I survive this one I want to build 1 more. After that I hopefully will be able to read how well the people that are pushing the envelop even further are doing. I do feel c/f accuracy is close but it will have to be naked until some one comes up with a better sabot that is commercial available.
Jon
|
|
|
|
Post by dave d. on Mar 22, 2011 11:01:12 GMT -5
 I have a lugged gun and still would not want to shoot to these high pressures we are seeing.
|
|
|
|
Post by ozark on Mar 22, 2011 12:29:30 GMT -5
I am satisfied that each rifle has its own pressure limit before exploding. No, I would not flirt with the pressure limit. A better question IMO is what is the need to push the envelop? What is to be gained?
|
|
|
|
Post by rossman40 on Mar 22, 2011 12:50:20 GMT -5
With the guys using the Pressure Traces we have come a long way but I still feel we need a reference load to bring the figures more inline. I have to agree that numbers in the 40k range is probly safe but how do we know the number from the PT is "real". We can guestimate with Quick Load but we are not shooting breech loaded cartridge ammo where you have to deal with case crimp and "engraving". Then we have the sabot so the ML pressures are going to be totally different then cartridge ammo. I'm not saying all the data collected is junk, it is still extremely useful as a comparison and we can see the timing of the pressure curve and those pesky secondary spikes. We can say this load should be safe and then look for the accuracy. But we all know the fastest load isn't always the most accurate. Then we run into what would be safe in one rifle might not be safe in another and then what if you substitute different load components.
Maybe RW can talk to his good friends at Western powders to run some test loads of 5744 thru their ML test barrels to give us some accurate base loads in .45.
|
|
|
|
Post by bigmoose on Mar 22, 2011 13:42:56 GMT -5
My 2 cents no science just observations from sending lots of bullets down range and many tests.
All shooting done with my .50 cal. with sabots.
On of my favorite loads is Barnes 300gr X bullet with 70grs of H4198 and orange sabot, in winter we got some days in the 50's the load works fine, in summer month I have to drop back to 65-66 grs using 70gr blow the sabot and sents the bullet keyholing into the great unknown.
When I got the Barnes 350gr X bullet, I tested it in cool weather, also 70grs, after each of my testing session, I call Rick and give him my report, He said 70gr of H4198 with that bullets was pushing it, drop back to 68grs, and that nothing made of flesh and bones would know the difference.
Now you folks are using 70grs with a 325gr bullet in .45 caliber rifle, doesnt pressure build up to a greater degree in the smaller space..
I'll all for pushing to get more penetration, but I always have someone to guide my action, Brother Rick and now Sir Edge. Edge gave me the load for my Buster bullet, pressure is fine, with a sabot shooting rifle, you can count on the sabot to tell you when you are pushing too far.
As I said no science, I'd hate for someone to get hurt.
|
|
|
|
Post by mike3132 on Mar 22, 2011 15:52:17 GMT -5
Savage tested the barrels to 125k psi so answer is yes to both.
Some modern cartridges are tested and approved to 64.5K. I think any load 65k or less is safe.
RB used 40K as his limit for testing so we pretty much set that limit as standard for the Savage.
I think most smokeless loads are very save but without a case to limit mistakes of double charges or double bullet/sabots, the load is only as safe as the operator. Mike
|
|
j1r11
8 Pointer
Posts: 178
|
Post by j1r11 on Mar 22, 2011 17:51:50 GMT -5
YES...to a 45-70 lever action; YES...to a 450 Marlin; Not intentionally to a 458 win mag or Lott. Certainly NOT with a non-lugged action to back up the BP especially if you don't know the thread ratings....but hey a bolt handle sticking out your face may make a new fashion statement ;D edge. My savage bolt locks in the down position pretty tight and behind where the bolt locks down is receiver steel and the plastic of the stock. I am just curious how the bolt would fly back? |
|
|
|
Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 22, 2011 18:11:46 GMT -5
YES...to a 45-70 lever action; YES...to a 450 Marlin; Not intentionally to a 458 win mag or Lott. Certainly NOT with a non-lugged action to back up the BP especially if you don't know the thread ratings....but hey a bolt handle sticking out your face may make a new fashion statement ;D edge. My savage bolt locks in the down position pretty tight and behind where the bolt locks down is receiver steel and the plastic of the stock. I am just curious how the bolt would fly back? If the breech plug shears (strips) the thread both it and the bolt will instantly become projectiles. This will occur with the same instant speed as a bullet can leave the other end. It can be a very deadly projectile. CVA used to have at least one of these type claim cases open about all the time. Can review some of the firearm injury claims and safety records here as well as see what a breech plug that has "let go" looks like: www.cvaguncases.com/ |
|
|
|
Post by shoot2reload on Mar 22, 2011 18:38:31 GMT -5
At what pressure do sabots start to blow? Aren't they the weak link?
|
|
|
|
Post by deadon on Mar 22, 2011 18:52:06 GMT -5
My savage bolt locks in the down position pretty tight and behind where the bolt locks down is receiver steel and the plastic of the stock. I am just curious how the bolt would fly back? If the breech plug shears (strips) the thread both it and the bolt will instantly become projectiles. This will occur with the same instant speed as a bullet can leave the other end. It can be a very deadly projectile. CVA used to have at least one of these type claim cases open about all the time. Can review some of the firearm injury claims and safety records here as well as see what a breech plug that has "let go" looks like: www.cvaguncases.com/ MAN, that will make your eyes water OOOOOOOOCH. Thanks you the info. |
|
|
|
Post by spoonover on Mar 22, 2011 19:22:11 GMT -5
No! Watch the ram rods (witness marks ↕) close and we will have no worry's!
|
|
|
|
Post by edge on Mar 22, 2011 19:38:39 GMT -5
Savage tested the barrels to 125k psi so answer is yes to both. SNIP. Personally I think that this is a bit of a misnomer. While the load tested may have reached that number, IIRC this was not a test barrel and just two stacked loads and an estimate of pressure. edge. |
|
|
|
Post by edge on Mar 22, 2011 19:40:26 GMT -5
At what pressure do sabots start to blow? Aren't they the weak link? Good question! If the load is right they don't blow past 50kpsi. edge. |
|
|
|
Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 22, 2011 19:54:32 GMT -5
At what pressure do sabots start to blow? Aren't they the weak link? Good question! If the load is right they don't blow past 50kpsi. edge. I agree, the sabot is not a "pop off" valve. It depends on factors other than just peak pressures. You can tell watching some of the Pressure Traces and see some commonality that cause sabot rupture at much lower pressures. The loads that have steep quick spikes or now we are seeing some loads that I believe are blowing sabots at the secondary spike much farther down the barrel than I had thought before. JMO. Loads that build the longer curves can be shot to much higher pressures and the sabot still "take it". IMO while sabot failure gives some indications about a load it is not a necessarily good indicator of pressure the load is building. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2011 20:06:05 GMT -5
savage bolts WILL open. I have a friend on whose gun the barrel was replaced last fall that did exactly that. he had one of Petes plugs with the bushing pressed in from the back. he was hunting in Iowa the season before and did a practice sesson before the hunt. he said when he pulled the trigger the gun kicked like a mule and the bolt flew back and cut his nose open. he blamed it on the plug but i knew something didnt sound right about the whole thing. he put his factory plug in, licked his wounds and continued the hunt.
forward to last fall
he decides to get the savage out during a shooting session and when he loads it I noticed the rod fell the last 2 inches or so during loading and accuracy was off when he fired a group. this gun routinely shot cloverleafs in years past. I proceeded to give the gun a going over and noticed the firing pin was braded on the end. I ask if he had the PA plug and he pulled it out of his box. upon inspection the bushing had come out far enough to hit the bolt and split the bushing in half but it was still captured slightly in the plug (thank God). the bolt nose showed an impression of the bushing so yes it hit the bolt VERY hard. I strongly suspected a double load along with a bulged barrel and upon interogating him he admitted it was possible.
there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that his gun was double loaded, all the evidence was there. the bulge was in the rear sight area which is typical. he was using the plug as a scapegoat. he simply left his gun loaded after our muzzer season and failed to check it before fireing. he sent it to savage and they put a new barrel on, along with a new hex plug and new sights. chalk another one up for Joe Degrande.
so yes a nonlugged bolt WILL open, it has happened. he now has a witness mark on his rod because I put it on myself and I can gurantee he pays attention upon loading now...Bill
|
|
j1r11
8 Pointer
Posts: 178
|
Post by j1r11 on Mar 22, 2011 20:23:17 GMT -5
savage bolts WILL open. I have a friend on whose gun the barrel was replaced last fall that did exactly that. he had one of Petes plugs with the bushing pressed in from the back. he was hunting in Iowa the season before and did a practice sesson before the hunt. he said when he pulled the trigger the gun kicked like a mule and the bolt flew back and cut his nose open. he blamed it on the plug but i knew something didnt sound right about the whole thing. he put his factory plug in, licked his wounds and continued the hunt. forward to last fall he decides to get the savage out during a shooting session and when he loads it I noticed the rod fell the last 2 inches or so during loading and accuracy was off when he fired a group. this gun routinely shot cloverleafs in years past. I proceeded to give the gun a going over and noticed the firing pin was braded on the end. I ask if he had the PA plug and he pulled it out of his box. upon inspection the bushing had come out far enough to hit the bolt and split the bushing in half but it was still captured slightly in the plug (thank God). the bolt nose showed an impression of the bushing so yes it hit the bolt VERY hard. I strongly suspected a double load along with a bulged barrel and upon interogating him he admitted it was possible. there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that his gun was double loaded, all the evidence was there. the bulge was in the rear sight area which is typical. he was using the plug as a scapegoat. he simply left his gun loaded after our muzzer season and failed to check it before fireing. he sent it to savage and they put a new barrel on, along with a new hex plug and new sights. chalk another one up for Joe Degrande. so yes a nonlugged bolt WILL open, it has happened. he now has a witness mark on his rod because I put it on myself and I can gurantee he pays attention upon loading now...Bill If it only opened and not flew out on a double charge though, think about what it would take to get it to fly out. I am sure the pressures we are talking about are not twice what we are shooting now. Also, i am talking about a factory plug, not some aftermarket or handmade stuff. I am not promoting finding the failure point though  Also, unless the plug came back and sheared off the bolt handle, i just cannot see how the handle is going to rotate 45 degrees or so then fly back. Maybe we can get Toby to test this for us |
|
|
|
Post by deadeye on Mar 22, 2011 20:23:28 GMT -5
i would vote no & if i thought i was near machine failure-i would not up it another notch just to gain accuracy. the vents/plugs & primers were inspected with magnifying glass frequently for anything unusual including a plug that might be tighter upon dissassembly. the only signs that did slow me were the buldging just under the primer cup & vent wear increase,two sure signs that we were getting pressured ignition system. i just wish there was a manual load for this adventure.
|
|
|
|
Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 22, 2011 20:31:41 GMT -5
savage bolts WILL open. I have a friend on whose gun the barrel was replaced last fall that did exactly that. he had one of Petes plugs with the bushing pressed in from the back. he was hunting in Iowa the season before and did a practice sesson before the hunt. he said when he pulled the trigger the gun kicked like a mule and the bolt flew back and cut his nose open. he blamed it on the plug but i knew something didnt sound right about the whole thing. he put his factory plug in, licked his wounds and continued the hunt. forward to last fall he decides to get the savage out during a shooting session and when he loads it I noticed the rod fell the last 2 inches or so during loading and accuracy was off when he fired a group. this gun routinely shot cloverleafs in years past. I proceeded to give the gun a going over and noticed the firing pin was braded on the end. I ask if he had the PA plug and he pulled it out of his box. upon inspection the bushing had come out far enough to hit the bolt and split the bushing in half but it was still captured slightly in the plug (thank God). the bolt nose showed an impression of the bushing so yes it hit the bolt VERY hard. I strongly suspected a double load along with a bulged barrel and upon interogating him he admitted it was possible. there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that his gun was double loaded, all the evidence was there. the bulge was in the rear sight area which is typical. he was using the plug as a scapegoat. he simply left his gun loaded after our muzzer season and failed to check it before fireing. he sent it to savage and they put a new barrel on, along with a new hex plug and new sights. chalk another one up for Joe Degrande. so yes a nonlugged bolt WILL open, it has happened. he now has a witness mark on his rod because I put it on myself and I can gurantee he pays attention upon loading now...Bill If it only opened and not flew out on a double charge though, think about what it would take to get it to fly out. I am sure the pressures we are talking about are not twice what we are shooting now. Also, i am talking about a factory plug, not some aftermarket or handmade stuff. Also, unless the plug came back and sheared off the bolt handle, i just cannot see how the handle is going to rotate 45 degrees or so then fly back. Maybe we can get Toby to test this for us IF I say if a Savage breech plug were to strip I doubt seriously the bolt handle would "catch" it. |
|
|
|
Post by Richard on Mar 22, 2011 20:50:15 GMT -5
Here is just an example of how the sabot acted like a pressure relief valve today..............I have some load information to put on if I get a chance before TOP SHOT comes on ;D. Anyway.......... I was planning to shoot 60 gr. of H-4198 testing some SST's with the more rounded base vs. some SST's that I had machined the base flat. At the first shot, I seemed to notice a flash come out the muzzle..............This would be unusual for this light a load  The chronograph read 2465 fps...........somewhat low  ...AND, no impact on the target?  ? Now this is strange  . Checked the scope for tightness, and it was OK. Had Bill watch my target thru his spotting scope while I fired another shot........same thing!!!! Velocity this time 2470 fps? ? Hmmmmm very close but still got the flash and Bill thought the shot hit the dirt alongside the target board? ?Hmmmmmmmmmm. I then ran the scope adjustments up and down about five clicks and also horizontally. Everything seemed to move and return OK??? Pulled the BP to examine and everything looked and checked out OK. THENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN, I looked at the powder vials from the row I was using and compared them to the second row of five alongside of them . Right off the bat, I noticed the difference in the color of the powder. H-4198 is a light grayish green and V V looks almost black I had had five vials of H-4198 previously measured and in the box, but wanted five more for my test. Some how, I must have grabbed the N-110 powder measure bottle (yes, I do have them marked) by mistake and loaded 60 gr. of N-110. If you recall, I had shot both 50 and 55 gr. of N-110 and many asked how I did it with out blowing sabots??? Well, I did.............but not 60 gr. It was odd how the velocities were only 5 fps different between the two shots? So, I figure I must have just stressed the skirt enough to let the pressure out along with the big flame. I don't think the load was dangerously high, high pressure, but enough to make the sabot give way ;D So, as was mentioned, it would more likely be shooter error that causes a problem rather then the actual equipment failing. Richard |
|
j1r11
8 Pointer
Posts: 178
|
Post by j1r11 on Mar 22, 2011 20:50:36 GMT -5
If it only opened and not flew out on a double charge though, think about what it would take to get it to fly out. I am sure the pressures we are talking about are not twice what we are shooting now. Also, i am talking about a factory plug, not some aftermarket or handmade stuff. Also, unless the plug came back and sheared off the bolt handle, i just cannot see how the handle is going to rotate 45 degrees or so then fly back. Maybe we can get Toby to test this for us IF I say if a Savage breech plug were to strip I doubt seriously the bolt handle would "catch" it. Then do you think it would sear the handle off, blow the bolt W/handle through the receiver or open the bolt then blow the bolt back? |
|
|
|
Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 22, 2011 20:55:07 GMT -5
IF I say if a Savage breech plug were to strip I doubt seriously the bolt handle would "catch" it. Then do you think it would sear the handle off, blow the bolt W/handle through the receiver or open the bolt then blow the bolt back? Only guessing at best and hope to never be able to prove one way or the other,,,,,but a breech plug failure from enough pressure to shear off the threads would also shear the bolt handle right off I suspect. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2011 21:10:35 GMT -5
IF a factory plug were to strip and come out there is no way the dinky bolt that the bolt rides on would hold it. but I seriously doubt the plug would give before the barrel would split, hope nobody ever finds out. the loads in question that have been tested lately are no doubt safe but add a double load in the mix and who knows? without a doubt when working on the upper end of the spectrum one MUST be on guard at all times. would i approach swinglock load levels with the savage or a 700 conversion? NO, but each to his own and I will not bash someone that pushes the upper end with CAUTION....Bill
|
|
I have a lugged gun and still would not want to shoot to these high pressures we are seeing. 
The chronograph read 2465 fps...........somewhat low 
...AND, no impact on the target?
? Now this is strange 
. Checked the scope for tightness, and it was OK. Had Bill watch my target thru his spotting scope while I fired another shot........same thing!!!! Velocity this time 2470 fps?