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Post by deadeye on Mar 6, 2011 23:48:47 GMT -5
since its flooded here & waiting for things to dry out, i thought it might be beneficial for some to share some info on what i think it will take to shoot approx .5 moa @ 100yds consistently. there have been some "mis-statements" posted about deadeye only shoots 2 or 3 shot groups &/or can shoot .5 all day long/w/mz- not true! however i have had plenty of targets in the past in load developing for long range shooting that have been 3,5,8 shot groups approx .5@ 100yds. i don't keep many targets so i dont have those to show. last week i pulled my other pac .45 "long trang" to the 100yd bench just to shoot some proven approx .5moa loads just to see. to my surprise groups were erratic for this gun & knew something was not right even those groups were approx 1.25'' . after removing the breech plug i found that carbon had gotten in around the plug where the bevel on the vent seats, cleaned it up & reseated. in the past i have noted & documented on this barrel it takes 8 shots to settle in for best results on what i call now "barrel is in the groove" so returned today to foul,shot 1- 275be overknurled-then shot 3 of bigmoose's 290's then changed to target to see for the settle-in,the 2@ 5:30 ,then it settled in as usual as predicted poi change for a 5 shot group, 1-4 @.400 #5 opened to approx 1.040-.950(hard to really tell since target's/board was wet & warped from the last 2 days of rain) the barrel is now in the groove & sits until another try later when i can. imo- to get to near very consistent .5moa- #1- need upper weight bullets such as the parker 275be,325be #2- bullets will have to be culled & a check die for very consistent fit regardless of knurled or submitted "smooth" #3- shoot sabotless #4- vent & breechplug will have to be monitored closely #5- good stable benchrest & a solid scope that can handle recoil with a somewhat "fine crosshair" this list is by no means complete& in order,but a good direction note-my set-up is for hunting using a medium-somewhat heavy crosshair- 3x12x50mm burris xtr tactical
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2011 4:55:34 GMT -5
good shooting, If I ever trade for a new scope for the boat anchor I have some proofing to do myself.....Bill
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 7, 2011 8:52:44 GMT -5
Good post and pretty much "sums up" my thoughts too. Would say good luck, but that aint got much to do with it does it.
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 7, 2011 9:06:41 GMT -5
deadeye, You should have shot the nickel than a dime.
Very nice shooting.
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Post by deadeye on Mar 7, 2011 10:01:17 GMT -5
bigmoose, on your 290's the first 2 almost went into the same exact hole,then the last one drifted approx 5'' away. this is the first solid coppers i have pressed & my knurling was not near enough,all went down way too loose. however i can see this being a dime load properly set-up. the nickel is still out there for hopefully this evening's "overlay test" i''ll bet you a nickel i get it on the first shot!
thx all for the kind words-my focus now is on how rkrobson pans out,he's off to a great start!
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Post by jims on Mar 7, 2011 10:55:40 GMT -5
Deadeye: You also need a #6. A good shooter. I know you are that, I have seen you shoot. Nice work, keep us posted. I just ordered my Brux barrel in 1 in 28 for sabotted shooting. It is not too late for me to change that, if you keep posting like this I may have to go faster and naked. ;D
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 7, 2011 11:05:34 GMT -5
deadeye, Too loose made the flier, In my rifle, it takes a great of force to seat those bullets, IMHO, the tighter the seat the better it shoots. I have had to drive an oversized bullet down the bore with a mallet, yet it didn't effect the accuracy of the bullet at 100 yards. I'm rooting for you to make that nickel two pieces.
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Post by Dave W on Mar 7, 2011 13:39:13 GMT -5
bigmoose, on your 290's the first 2 almost went into the same exact hole,then the last one drifted approx 5'' away. this is the first solid coppers i have pressed & my knurling was not near enough,all went down way too loose. however i can see this being a dime load properly set-up. the nickel is still out there for hopefully this evening's "overlay test" i''ll bet you a nickel i get it on the first shot! thx all for the kind words-my focus now is on how rkrobson pans out,he's off to a great start! Same problem with the all coppers in my dies. They don't spring back like the jacketed bullets, doesn't seem to matter how much I knurl them, still too loose and velocities are well below the jacketed bullet velocities. Nice shooting!
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 7, 2011 14:02:56 GMT -5
Dave W,
The 290 Barnes TMZ, are the most accurate [sabotless] bullets I have ever used, with zero fliers, The only true one hole groups I have ever fired was with this load, 290 TMZ, resized to .450.5 ,53grs of H4198, wonder wad. It is my dime killer load.
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Post by rangeball on Mar 7, 2011 14:26:28 GMT -5
290 TMZ, resized to .450.5 I always figured that was the key, resize to just below bore size so a minimum of knurling is necessary to get a good tight fit, less than a thousandth if possible. Re-sizing a few thousands below then knurling back up doesn't make sense to me, and would seem to lead to more potential for inconsistency.
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Post by shooter on Mar 7, 2011 17:11:44 GMT -5
Deadyeye great shooting way to hang in there..
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Post by deadeye on Mar 7, 2011 17:46:37 GMT -5
well this is a sharp crowd,could not even "hustle" a nickel out of anyone,forgot accidently to add prior #5 was called low due to a "creak in the rest during the pull" nickel is gone! while looking for nickel a few recoveries were made probably securing statements on "obturation" far right-deeper grooves seemed to be more fresh-probably upper loads h4198's a pic of my 401k aka "copper mine" lol
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2011 18:04:04 GMT -5
no bets here on hitting a nickel, wait til it warms up and try a fly or two. might make things a little more interesting. the way metals is going up you will be digging there in a year or two sure enough...Bill
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 7, 2011 18:05:57 GMT -5
I have never recovered a penny or a nickel, the nickel bust right thru, my wood backstop, I don't know what happens to the penny, but I'm O- For in recovery. I told one of the gents he could have one if he could find it no luck, Dimes the bullet punches a nice hole, It stay on the mounting board.
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Post by Dave W on Mar 7, 2011 18:57:07 GMT -5
All this time I thought the screen name was referring to something being wrong with your eye. Now I get it! ;D ;D ;D Serious question. Looks like the knurling is still there where the bullet obdurated into the grooves. True? Trying to figure out how good of a seal we are actually getting sabotless.
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Post by deadeye on Mar 7, 2011 19:09:41 GMT -5
All this time I thought the screen name was referring to something being wrong with your eye. Now I get it! ;D ;D ;D Serious question. Looks like the knurling is still there where the bullet obdurated into the grooves. True? Trying to figure out how good of a seal we are actually getting sabotless. davew-the one on the right the grooves are much more pronounced then the one on the left,the center just barely engraved. i check often for recoveries & such but these are the first to turn up for whatever reason. btw the other 5 or 6 petal is probably my barnes 225 tsx out of my 358wssm. the other hunk of steel is the core of a 50bmg ap round. jims-is #6 ok! ;D ;D
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Post by Richard on Mar 7, 2011 20:08:12 GMT -5
Deadeye........It appears to be pretty good shooting What is this "called low" or "called high?" Now, I am not busting your gonads but here is the way I understand "called" flyers........... First of all you have to have a spotter who is watching you shoot. You pull the trigger and before looking at the target, tell your spotter "where" you call the shot. He checks thru his spotting scope and verifies that the shot went were you said it was going? Yes? NO? It seems like it is just too simple to have a shot go out of the group and it becomes a "called flyer?" When I post groups on this board you never hear me crying "called flyer?" The shots are what they are. I know sometimes my crosshair is not 100% where it should have been when the shot broke, but that is all part of the shooting game. If I have a bad shot at one of my benchrest matches, I cannot go the range officer and tell him I pulled a shot? He would laugh me off the range. All of these things that we do or don't do correctly is what makes up a group. Now, this is also constructive criticism: For the good groups you shoot, your targets do not showcase them. You are shooting on whatever that backing is and they don't show up the group very well. It seems like you need something in front of the backer to prevent the bullet from shattering the paper. You also clutter the groups with other scribbling and letters and who knows what all? I personally take pride in putting my groups on this board and want them to look legible so everyone can understand what is going on. I may be picky, but your fore mat leaves a lot to be desired from a viewers perspective. I am always scratching my head trying to figure out whats what?... on your target. If I was spending as much time and money as you are, showcasing your long range project, I would think you would want to illustrate it a little better I may be picky, but I am honest.....I am not trying to put you down, but trying to get you to improve and better showcase your efforts. Richard
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Post by rkrobson on Mar 7, 2011 20:46:10 GMT -5
OUCH Richard! Iam going to delete my posts from last week right now. Iam so sensitive, I couldn't handle the constructive criticism. On a lighter note, I don't even need to see targets as I trust you guys. On bullet obturation, does anyone here use naked bullets seated fairly soft like Iam using on the new Munden rifle and get similiar results? Ray
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Post by deadeye on Mar 7, 2011 21:29:10 GMT -5
Deadeye........It appears to be pretty good shooting What is this "called low" or "called high?" Now, I am not busting your gonads but here is the way I understand "called" flyers........... First of all you have to have a spotter who is watching you shoot. You pull the trigger and before looking at the target, tell your spotter "where" you call the shot. He checks thru his spotting scope and verifies that the shot went were you said it was going? Yes? NO? It seems like it is just too simple to have a shot go out of the group and it becomes a "called flyer?" When I post groups on this board you never hear me crying "called flyer?" The shots are what they are. I know sometimes my crosshair is not 100% where it should have been when the shot broke, but that is all part of the shooting game. If I have a bad shot at one of my benchrest matches, I cannot go the range officer and tell him I pulled a shot? He would laugh me off the range. All of these things that we do or don't do correctly is what makes up a group. Now, this is also constructive criticism: For the good groups you shoot, your targets do not showcase them. You are shooting on whatever that backing is and they don't show up the group very well. It seems like you need something in front of the backer to prevent the bullet from shattering the paper. You also clutter the groups with other scribbling and letters and who knows what all? I personally take pride in putting my groups on this board and want them to look legible so everyone can understand what is going on. I may be picky, but your fore mat leaves a lot to be desired from a viewers perspective. I am always scratching my head trying to figure out whats what?... on your target. If I was spending as much time and money as you are, showcasing your long range project, I would think you would want to illustrate it a little better I may be picky, but I am honest.....I am not trying to put you down, but trying to get you to improve and better showcase your efforts. Richard richard-misery love's company & i dont care to join you right now. you are only "showcasing" richard here.
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Post by Dave W on Mar 7, 2011 23:27:23 GMT -5
Personally, I don't care about the presentation. I get the six shots into one ragged hole though.
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Post by Savage Shooter on Mar 8, 2011 7:36:15 GMT -5
Personally, I don't care about the presentation. I get the six shots into one ragged hole though. Ditto.......nuff said
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Post by edge on Mar 8, 2011 8:30:36 GMT -5
As far as called flyers, I sometimes do that too and I'd like to explain why. Some folks use fancy machines to hold their rifle in place and basically just squeeze the trigger with almost no recoil or sight wobble due to the rest design. When I shoot I have a front bag and a rear bag with a fair amount of slop. At 100 yards I can normally keep the crosshairs on a 1 inch target dot...but barely ;D This is close to my hunting stability in the field and rarely shoot at game without a pretty stable platform..... When I yank the trigger as the crosshairs pass over the dot I try to remember where they were when it went bang. If my perception of the shot was that I did a lousy Yank then I'll take note. Why do I do that, well I don't do it to show off, I do it so I can tweak my loads to get the best accuracy! Let's say I shoot 2 shots touching and then I yank a shot and put it an inch away. If I don't take note that it was not the load but my skills that caused this then I may dismiss a perfectly good load. edge.
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Post by deadeye on Mar 8, 2011 8:58:33 GMT -5
i do under stand the spotter tehnique,but since i am the spotter & shooter my poa was a approx 1/2'' dot i drew w/marker which was not visable since this is still dialed for 650yds. i usually know exactly where the call is at the explosion. this rest every once in a while has a slight creak which has happened approx 3 times while chronographing. it happened on this shot cross heading down,just being "honest". i use this also as a shooting technique as this is very similar to shooting the long one's from a peice of plywood /w/rest on top of the truck cab in which there is give if you manipulate the rifle rest in any way. welcome to field shooting/hunting in which i still have not found concrete benchrest available when i would like to have one. you have to make do with whats available in the field. my longest shots in the field include prone hits @ 1550yds w/50bmg. we shoot from prone which is called "hunter " class in 1,000yd competition along with benchrest @ 1,000yds w/ 50bmg.
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Post by jims on Mar 8, 2011 10:04:51 GMT -5
Even with a .50 BMG a shot approaching one mile is a long one. I shot at 600 yards at Camp Perry, not even close to what you have done.
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Post by rossman40 on Mar 8, 2011 10:27:40 GMT -5
Being able to "call your shot" is a skill that is perhaps more old school when you do not shoot off a fancy rest and in various non supported positions. It boils down to what was your sight picture at the time of the shot. It might not have as much weight when shooting from a lead sled but when shooting offhand (unsupported) only the shooter knows his sight picture and his form when the shot broke.
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Post by deadeye on Mar 8, 2011 10:41:09 GMT -5
found the nickel-far left-it was approx 10ft in front of the target. per bigmoose's recovery on penny-they are brittle as it is included here for fun as these quarters & penny were shot exhibition style- tossed & plinked w/22 browning rifle a few yrs back & i remember bigmoose was in that conversation on the old board. the quarter with the center hit was taped to a box to make sure 22 was sighted in @ approx 15ft. i never recovered any of the tossed nickel hits. no ego or anything like that but after watching bob munden do it on" impossible shots"on tv, had to just try it for fun, i could not make a living at it!
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 8, 2011 12:43:31 GMT -5
Deadeye,
Got change of a paper dollar.
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 8, 2011 13:23:12 GMT -5
Deadeye, I hereby decalare myself to be the best marksman on this board.............between the ages of 77 years 43 days---to 77 years 44 days.
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Post by deadeye on Mar 8, 2011 14:38:19 GMT -5
bigmoose- i 100% agree! your dime- now that was an impossible shot! ;D
wait a minute.you had to tape that dime perfectly to the end of your barrel!! ;D ;D ;D
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 8, 2011 15:13:47 GMT -5
Deadeye,
And it wasn't easy, Edge already accussed of faking it, at the range one day, one of the range officiers pointed me out and told the story, he watched me do it twice, some clown came up to me, and said it had to be a trick, I agreed and told him to run along, finally, I asked him which vehicle was his, I than pointed to mine, I said I'll be back in one hour with the title you do the same, the bet will be I get five shots to hit the dime, [ it has never taken me the full five shots] I win I get your car you win you get mine, and since you say it can't be done, you can't lose. He walked away, I was a most happy fellow, I really like my car. All it took is an off day and I'd be walking.
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