|
|
Post by birddog1 on Feb 21, 2011 3:48:55 GMT -5
Hi do any of you think a Scoprd Pro Hunter in 50 ca is up to the task of a humane kill on a Elk at 200yds broad side with a 250gr Barnes bullet? Just need your opinion.
Nim
|
|
|
|
Post by wilmsmeyer on Feb 21, 2011 5:27:57 GMT -5
Yes...It would be great. With a proper sight in, you'd be on hair all the way to 200 yds.
Your bullet would get there and penetrate from many angles
Your fine!
|
|
|
|
Post by jeepman on Feb 21, 2011 22:57:02 GMT -5
A .250 gr bullet for elk size animals from a M/L rifle is marginal at best. especially at 200 yds. you would be better served with the .295 or .300 gr barnes offerings. the better BC and the additional weight are a much better choice for a humane kill on elk. the 300 gr gold dot/deep curl is also a excellent choice for elk at less than half the cost of the Barnes bullets...
|
|
|
|
Post by mike3132 on Feb 21, 2011 23:13:00 GMT -5
Hi do any of you think a Scoprd Pro Hunter in 50 ca is up to the task of a humane kill on a Elk at 200yds broad side with a 250gr Barnes bullet? Just need your opinion. Nim Yes, if you using 150 grains of T-7 or max load of BH209. The 250 Barnes Expander will hold together and flare out just like in the pictures. I do agree a 300 grain Expander might be a better choice. Mike |
|
|
|
Post by sabotloader on Feb 21, 2011 23:44:33 GMT -5
[quote author=" mike3132" timestamp="1298278135" source="/post/73685/thread"]Hi do any of you think a Scoprd Pro Hunter in 50 ca is up to the task of a humane kill on a Elk at 200yds broad side with a 250gr Barnes bullet? Just need your opinion. Nim Yes, if you using 150 grains of T-7 or max load of BH209. The 250 Barnes Expander will hold together and flare out just like in the pictures. I do agree a 300 grain Expander might be a better choice. Mike[/quote] Is not 150 grains of T7 above TC's recommended load for TC barrels, especially with a 300 grain bullet? I am sure the gun will hold that load but I am not sure that TC would agree... |
|
|
|
Post by sabotloader on Feb 21, 2011 23:50:34 GMT -5
birddog1I would suggest that you think about a 300 grain bullet vs a 250 grain bullet if you are extending your range to 200 yards. There is a good deal of difference in energy carried by the 300 grain bullet vs the 250...  
|
|
|
|
Post by GMB54-120 on Feb 22, 2011 0:17:06 GMT -5
After seeing a video of a 300gr DeepCurl hitting some jugs at 200 yards and the recovered bullet, im pretty sure a 115gr BH209 or a 120gr T7 load would do just fine on elk. I would probably choose a Partition if they shot well or the Barnes 300gr 458 SOCOM and a similar charge. The 260gr Nosler Partition is also a option if you want a bit less recoil and great performance.
|
|
|
|
Post by dans on Feb 22, 2011 11:45:54 GMT -5
A 300 grain Barnes Expander MZ will shoot through 3 feet of elk at 50 yards. Don't see why it ouldn't get the job done at 200.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2011 14:04:03 GMT -5
i use the 250gr Thor "basically a barnes"and 100gr Blackhorn209 as an elk load. 200 yards no problem!
|
|
|
|
Post by sabotloader on Feb 22, 2011 17:10:15 GMT -5
i use the 250gr Thor "basically a barnes"and 100gr Blackhorn209 as an elk load. 200 yards no problem! I think you should actually harvest an elk @ 200 before you recommend a 250 that will be down 800 lbs of energy. I know you have shot one elk with a PRB but 1 elk is not a elk hunter. Mature Elk are a lot tougher than your yearling was. |
|
|
|
Post by sabotloader on Feb 22, 2011 17:21:58 GMT -5
i use the 250gr Thor "basically a barnes"and 100gr Blackhorn209 as an elk load. 200 yards no problem! I think you should actually harvest an elk @ 200 before you recommend a 250 that will be down 800 lbs of energy. I know you have shot one elk with a PRB but 1 elk is not a elk hunter. Mature Elk are a lot tougher than your yearling was. And I am not saying that the 250 would not do the job eventually or once in awhile at 175 to 230 yards, but why be marginal when you can be a bit better prepared with more energy... |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2011 18:24:38 GMT -5
my elk was no where near a yearling. A 250gr Thor with my powder charge is no problem on elk. Ive had members shoot right through mature bulls with the 250 and a 100gr charge, actually, 90 grs with the 250gr thor and they took them down quickly.
I like the 250 thor as its great for everything i hunt. I'd even use it on a moose if i could find a moose here in colorado.
|
|
|
|
Post by sabotloader on Feb 22, 2011 19:21:38 GMT -5
frontierganderMoose in the lower 48 are not the moose of Canada. A young lady in my class shot a nice big moose here in Idaho with a 243 in the chest. She hit it and it layed down after walking a few feet and bled to death. Elk on the other, especially mature elk are a different breed of animal. Put up the picture of your elk laying in the back of the pickup loaded whole - we will vote on it. In fact compare it to this cow - it is a three year old cow...  I will not say 'no problem' but within resonable range it should work just fine - remember you have not even shot anything with it yet. At 200 yards? That is the problem you take information from different forums and make the conclusion and that makes you an expert?... What is your personal experience with that weight bullet and that range?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2011 19:34:28 GMT -5
i never got a picture of my elk whole. Only cut in half. I stood next to the thing after i shot it and can tell you it wasnt a yearling.
Sabotloader you keep going on riding my on the forums lately, just back off and enjoy. You claim i think i am always right, yet you are right behind me claiming you know it all. You started up yesterday with me doing a rust test on barrels.
You shoot what YOU shoot, i'll shoot what i shoot, and the next person can shoot what ever he or she wants to shoot.
I'll take a 250gr Thor over any 300gr lead conical - sabot out there when it comes to hunting elk. For me, its a perfect, do it all load in my rifles.
tud nugent kills big canadian moose with a 55lb bow and arrow. Animals are not hard to kill, its harder finding them and placing a good shot to do the job quickly for the animals sake.
Its pretty darn hard to prove that a 300gr bullet kills better - quicker than a 250gr bullet.
|
|
|
|
Post by sabotloader on Feb 22, 2011 19:55:57 GMT -5
i never got a picture of my elk whole. Only cut in half. I stood next to the thing after i shot it and can tell you it wasnt a yearling. Here is your picture - take a look at the size head - that tells you a lot about the age...  I do but only when you try to act as the 'expert' and have very little experiance in what you are claiming. Jumping from forum to forum reading information is not a replacement for actual experiance. Correct, but do not present an option to a question asked that you do not have any experiance with. Remember the question...  50 ca is up to the task of a humane kill on a Elk at 200yds broad side with a 250gr Barnes bullet?[quote[I'll take a 250gr Thor over any 300gr lead conical |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2011 20:03:18 GMT -5
like i said, you shoot what you want to shoot, elk are not hard to kill. Putting together 2 elk killed on camera back in 08 with both 140 and 150gr bullets from a 3006 and a 270. There are still people out there that think you need a 7mm or a bigger magnum to kill elk.
I'd have no trouble shooting even a full grown buffalo with my load.
|
|
|
|
Post by GMB54-120 on Feb 22, 2011 20:35:20 GMT -5
Sorry but i have to agree. Why take the chance when you have a better option with more FPE. As long as the 300gr is accurate i would choose it every time. I want a solid 1000FPE minimum and a high SD in case i need that little extra for whatever reason, if you can deliver that much at 200 yards with a well constructed lighter bullet...fine.
Personally the lightest i would go is the 260gr Partition just because it is a no fail bullet and will retain a large shank (2/3rds) nearly 100% of the time. I also know it has worked at well over 150 yards on elk.
|
|
|
|
Post by sabotloader on Feb 22, 2011 21:05:10 GMT -5
like i said, you shoot what you want to shoot, elk are not hard to kill. Putting together 2 elk killed on camera back in 08 with both 140 and 150gr bullets from a 3006 and a 270. You just keep digging.... i have no idea why you would bring up a centerfire in this discsssion but let's look... how far off base you might be.... I really am wondering if you think there is a comparison between the power and velocity of the two guns you mention to that of a muzzleloader. Or do you - just have no idea... 30-06 - .308x150 gr. bullet 2900 fps. @ the muzzle and 2420 fps @ 200 yards... that translates to 2800 FPE @ the muzzle and 1951 FPE @ 200 yards... That is quite a bit better than the 800FPE of 250 grain bullet @ 200 Oh and the 270.. 270 - .277x140 gr. bullet 2900 fps. @ the muzzle and 2309 fps @ 200 yards. that translate to 2613 FPE @ the muzzle and 1939 FPE @ 200 yards. You can compare the ballistics of a muzzleloader with a 250 grain bullet with these numbers by looking at the chart in one of the previous posts. Certainly not but it sure helps in some situations. Heck the Native Americans in Alaska still get it done with a 22. At 200 yards - would you take that shot expecting a quick and humane kill? Point - Do you have personal experiance? bet you have never done it? You keep forgetting the original question.... something about a " Humane Kill to 200 yards" Had nothing to do with a 50-75-100 yard shot. If you ever get a chance at a bull in rut with your 250 @ 200 yards I would really like to hear those results. You will probably harvest it - but I do not think it will be pretty... |
|
|
|
Post by 12ptdroptine on Feb 22, 2011 21:22:59 GMT -5
My taxidermist has a nice 5x5 he shot with 3 pellets and a 250grsst and red EZ load sabot at a ranged 256 yds Hit right in the boiler room. It didnt kill the elk with the first shot. But stopped him right there and had a follow up that finished the job within second's.... If it will shoot it will kill was told to me once many years ago. we can try to justify anything we want to... But can we demonstrate it? In reality? Or theory?.. In my opinion it is better to eror on the side of overkill in this instance. I have an Encore... I dont know its limitation's......However I know mine.  Drop |
|
|
|
Post by 12ptdroptine on Feb 22, 2011 21:25:02 GMT -5
Yes, if you using 150 grains of T-7 or max load of BH209. The 250 Barnes Expander will hold together and flare out just like in the pictures. I do agree a 300 grain Expander might be a better choice. Mike Is not 150 grains of T7 above TC's recommended load for TC barrels, especially with a 300 grain bullet? I am sure the gun will hold that load but I am not sure that TC would agree... I have an older Encore and I was wondering about 150 gr of 777 .I called T/C and asked . They approved it. And that was 7-8 years ago. drop |
|
|
|
Post by sabotloader on Feb 22, 2011 21:44:38 GMT -5
12ptdroptine
I do not doubt that an Encore could handle 150 grains of T7 and I would not doubt that a tech told you to go for it. But still even today TC Will not list T7 powder in their manuals and the their stance remains that no more than 150 grain of BP or equivelent in the inlines. They take such a hard line stance on that when you ask for loads or they test your gun for accuracy they will only use Pyrodex as their base powder.
Shoot there are people out there shooting real smokeless in their Encore ML barrels, but yet one of the rules on open forums is stay within manufactures recommendations. Can you image if you or I should recommend shoot 150 grains of T7 - then somebody loaded up a 4/5/600 grain bullet on top of that load that might lead to a problem for somebody especially if they did not maintain their rifle in tip top shape...
So I guess I am thinking it is just best out here on the open forum to stay with what is in black and white in the given gun manual. Safety seems always the best policy.
|
|
|
|
Post by 12ptdroptine on Feb 22, 2011 22:19:49 GMT -5
Well there is always that possibility.. I had a question and called T/C and that is what they told me. But you are right .they dont use anything but Pyrodex. Wonder what the connection might be? Even in American Hunter magizine a few years back they tested the Encore with 150 gro of 777 and reported on the accuracy level with the ez load sabot and a 300 gr sst. Whole article about it. couldnt convince my son that it wasnt as accurate in my gun as 110 gr of 777 and a 250sst. This has me wondering about it now also? drop
|
|
|
|
Post by wilmsmeyer on Feb 23, 2011 18:53:43 GMT -5
You guys have your panties in a knot here. A Bullet that will penetrate great will get the job done just fine. FPE is needed up to a point but how much FPE does a 400 gr arrow have at 280 fps?
If your bullet will reach the vitals at any angle your elk, moose or deer will die quickly.
Saying that a 300 gr bullet will be leaps and bounds better than a 250 gr bullet is not fair.
I've never killed an elk and probably never will. But a 250 TMZ that will go length wise through a whitetail and exit....breaking hips and shoulders, will kill any elk that walks period.
Leave the 250 SST's at home..and leave the FPE argument at home too. A bullet that makes it to the boiler room will kill Goliath and a solid monolithic will do that for you.
|
|
|
|
Post by sabotloader on Feb 23, 2011 19:34:35 GMT -5
Well, I hope it is OK to disagree with a Global Moderator, but with what you are projecting -FPE doen't mater- we should just hunt with a 222 or such rifle... Course most states will not allow that as they also recognize the importance of FPE...You guys have your panties in a knot here. A Bullet that will penetrate great will get the job done just fine. FPE is needed up to a point but how much FPE does a 400 gr arrow have at 280 fps? That would depend upon what weight the arrow was... An if a bullet worked interanlly as an arrow does that would also be a different manner. And at what range would you shoot an Elk with an arrow? I am not an archery hunter but I know a few and their range is severly limited with an Elk versus a whitetail. Not necessarily... It will certainly die, probably bleed to death, but it will not always be quickly. I am not sure anyone said that it was leaps and bounds better than a 250.... The point was that greater penetration can be achieved with a bullet having greater energy than one that does not. Then if the bullet is designed correctly like a Barnes, Nosler, Lehigh with controlled expansion it will even penetrate further - detirmened by the amount of energy that it has to drive it. The wuestion was a Humane kill with a Barnes out 200 yards, has nothing to do with shorter ranges which the Barnes 250 would work equally well as a Barnes 300. Going length wise through a whitetail is not even a close approximation of what it would do in a bigger bodied much thicker skinned and bigger boned elk @ 200 yards. While you may have never shot an Elk or might never will - I have and I have shot a lot of them. They are a much different animal than a whitetail, muey, bear, or stateside Moose. I could share one experiance with a 7x6 bull Elk @ 125 yards with a 300 Winchester 300 Mag a Nosler 200 grain Semi Round nose bullet. With far more enery than anything a ML will shoot. The shot was a quartering shot - the bullet punched through the left front leg just below the joint through the chest cavity, through the diaphram and out just behind the last rib on the right side. The only way we new the animal was hit was the front leg was going around in circles as it hung off his body. Other than that he showed now signs of being hit. He continued his run down hill now for 4-500 yards before he ran out of gas and collapsed. I do not feel that was a quick and humane kill + it was a lot of work to get him back up to the ridge top. Another example one of my hunitng partners shot a bull at 75 yards with a 308 shooting 165 grain bullets, fact he shot it five times almost broadside shots, 4 of the shots were in the chest cavity and 1 in the neck shot made it through - not one shot made it out the other side, the only shot that was a pass through was the neck shot. The animal was probably dead with the very first shot but again the Bull showed no effects of the first 4 shots. The first two he just stood on the spot and watched, 3 and 4 he began to move away. Your 250 grain bullet a ML's velocity would not have made it through the body at all at a 125 yards let alone 200 yards. Talk to someone that has harvested a lot of Elk you will not believe their durabilty in some cases - not all but some. That is a fact! Question... will a Barnes even open (expand) @ 800 FPE. I would bet it would pencil. In that case why not just use a 22 with a solid bullet. FPE makes a big difference... And you are right it will kill Goliath, but will it do in a timely manner and humanely.... Discussion like you are presenting is exactly what the anti hunters love to hear.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2011 23:42:42 GMT -5
Hows one to prove that a 300gr projectile will kill faster than a 250?
|
|
|
|
Post by GMB54-120 on Feb 24, 2011 9:53:02 GMT -5
Hows one to prove that a 300gr projectile will kill faster than a 250? By listening to those that have actually killed many elk would be a good start. The data can usually be backed up by mathematics and physics. What produces more recoil? A 250 or 300gr at the same FPS? Which makes more FPE at longer range? Seems you left out the 200 yard part in your last question. Which one will be less effected by wind drift at longer ranges? Seems like hitting your target at 200 yards is a big factor and wind drift can by quite a bit different with a lighter bullet. As usual you wont listen to the entire question and only address the part you want to address. Even one of your own board members that shot an elk with 2 Thor 250gr said he is going to use the 300gr next time. BTW has Thor got their quality under control. After reading that section on your site, it appears they are having some issues including sending out pre loaded bullets, bullet weight variation by upto 6grs and mismatched packages that nearly cost a member a hunt because one of his packs .500s were running over .501 and wouldn't load during the hunt. |
|
|
|
Post by sabotloader on Feb 24, 2011 12:11:50 GMT -5
Hows one to prove that a 300gr projectile will kill faster than a 250? Jon, i personally can not prove it as I have only shot elk with a 300 grain Nosler from a muzzleloader. I have been hunting deer with a 250 and often thought if i were to see an elk at 100-125 yards I would take that shot but I my own little mind I was detirmined not to go much beyond that. The other thing and think you already mentioned it, but at 200 yard, if you could place the bullet in the head or along the spine you would definitely harvest and/or break the animal down to move closer and get the second shot. Probably the spine shot is not the most humane but it would certainly break him down and let him die at some point in time. If we had some ballistic jell we might be able to detirmine the better of the 2 at a 200 yards, but as you know shooting ballistic jell is not really like shooting a 500 to 1000 pound animal that has a nervous system, strength, and fairly good reaction time. The other thing I would worry about at that distance is the ability of the bullet to open and function as a big game bullet. Which bullet might have a better chance of getting better penetration and measured expansion. A bullet hitting with 11-1200 hundred pounds or a bullet hitting with 8-900 hundred pounds. Then on top of that which one would have enough remaining energy to penetrate deeper. My point is why be marginal when you get give yourself some added insurance, and I am talking at 175 yards and beyond. I think GM54-120 said it best when he said it is a matter of math. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2011 12:23:09 GMT -5
Hows one to prove that a 300gr projectile will kill faster than a 250? By listening to those that have actually killed many elk would be a good start. The data can usually be backed up by mathematics and physics. What produces more recoil? A 250 or 300gr at the same FPS? Which makes more FPE at longer range? Seems you left out the 200 yard part in your last question. Which one will be less effected by wind drift at longer ranges? Seems like hitting your target at 200 yards is a big factor and wind drift can by quite a bit different with a lighter bullet. As usual you wont listen to the entire question and only address the part you want to address. Even one of your own board members that shot an elk with 2 Thor 250gr said he is going to use the 300gr next time. BTW has Thor got their quality under control. After reading that section on your site, it appears they are having some issues including sending out pre loaded bullets, bullet weight variation by upto 6grs and mismatched packages that nearly cost a member a hunt because one of his packs .500s were running over .501 and wouldn't load during the hunt. You taking shots GM? If you read, you see that the guy who accidently got the wrong size bullets was fully repaid for the cost of bullets + shipping both ways + Got the right size bullets for no cost to make up for the accident. For a small business like Thor, they've been doing a fine job. Lehigh themselves has issues and still have fit issues with their conversion kits for Knights. Point is, a 250gr bullet will kill an elk just as fast a 300gr bullet. |
|
|
|
Post by GMB54-120 on Feb 24, 2011 12:50:57 GMT -5
That free replacement doesn't help much when you are in the field and the bullets wont fit your rifle. Whats the matter, cant handle any criticism of one of your sponsors? You mentioned the bullet not me so its fair game to offer the OP reviews from people that used them even if they are negative. And you can prove this how at 200 YARDS HUMANELY? Which is clearly stated on their website, although i dont see what that has to do with bullets? I didn't recommend anything from Lehigh in this thread. |
|
|
|
Post by sabotloader on Feb 24, 2011 13:02:17 GMT -5
frontiergander
Speaking of taking shots at a small business, which is not on your sponsor list, check the Lehigh web page... right there in black and white it tells all perspective buyers:
Due to Knight manufacturing variances and model differences, this kit may not fit the Knight Longe Range Hunter, Master Hunter, Master Hunter Cryogenic, DISC Original with the DISC Extreme conversion update, or the Green Mountain 54-120.
There is no attempt by Lehigh to hide the facts.
Next: you point out that: Lehigh is having issues with their conversion kits...
your statement: Lehigh themselves has issues and still have fit issues with their conversion kits for Knights.
While in fact if you would so some homework (which you rarely do) you would know the issue is with the tolerances that Knight was accepting from Green Mountain and the company that manufactures the Knight bolt.
When you make statements like this and a lot of others attributed to you, you do nothing but decrease your own creditability.
|
|
