80 weeks of .45 Pac-Nor shooting

[Richard]

So, Tuesday was the 80th. week I have been shooting either of my two .45 Pac-Nor Savages.........d**n!, thats a lot of bullets, powder and primers. I probably average about 33 shots per week...................so 33 X 80 = 2640 shots And, with all that shooting and all the different loads, I still don't have one load that I can say puts five shots in 1/2" at 100 yards or 1" at 200 yards.........even with perfect weather conditions? I wish I could find someone who could give me the formula. I have loads that 75% of the time I could probably get one inch at 100 and 2" at 200 (on a perfect day). Any help?
Anyway, as Herman mentioned in his post "Blowed sabots", there was quite a bit of wind yesterday and unless you had Bill telling you when to pull the trigger, groups would not be all that good, particularly at 300 yards. I only shot two 300 yard groups and one had 1.2" of vertical dispersion and 6" of horizontal..........the other had 1.5" of vertical and 5.2" of horizontal. I also had two blown sabots . One was with a Barnes 195 original rounded base bullet and surprisingly a second Barnes that I had machined the base flat??? Both these failures occurred using 54 gr. of SR4759 powder...............the ones that give the high initial pressure spike like N-110 and 5744. Also, I had not been using the cool rod at all and the barrel might have gotten a little warmer than I could feel..........Idunno?
Since I was doing some testing with a new CF 600 yard rifle I had just installed a 30" Krieger 6mm barrel, I did not shoot as many ML shots as usual. Also, I decided since I had my regular tripod benchrest...rest, that I would continue shooting the ML off of it and leave the Lead Sled in the truck. I might say, that I feel my steadiness is as good off the tripod as the sled. The only difference is I have to watch my eye relief more as the scope wants to come back and "get you!" This Leupold 6x20 varmint scope has a very short eye relief along with the added eye piece which increases the power to around 30X. What I do not like about this set up is that I have to use a Magnum PAST shoulder recoil pad and getting it into position for each shot is a PITA! The sled is so much simpler with my tracking device. I also don't have to deal with the bulky recoil pad. So, I will continue using the sled in the future for load work.
Targets one and two were with the same triplex load which I had previously tested. I only had enough charges for two five shot groups so I used the "original Barnes 195's and the 200 SST's) (here the Barnes did not blow any sabots.......then again, this triples produces less pressure and not the high initial spike which may have blown the other sabots)
Target three was again the original 195 Barnes and had not yet blown a sabot. Only shot three since it did not have the makings for a great group
Group four was shot sabot less and at a somewhat lower velocity and I believe the wind took its toll.
I might also add that Herman's groups were shot with 300 fps more velocity than mine,and may have help in the wind department
After yesterday's session, I am convinced I can shoot as well off the tripod as the lead sled...........However, at the end of the day when using the sled, I am less beat up than when using the rest ;D. Herman used to alway shoot off a rest until I started using the lead sled..........then Bill lent him his sled.... now that is all he shoots his ML from ;D
Richard

[deadeye]

richard per your 1st paragraph- i hope your not fishing for a fight & im not,but the answer is heavier bullets w/ respective higher bc's w/properly matched more effecient powders shot sabotless. that will get you approx 90% of the time. you still have to deal with plugs gathering carbon & vent wear & knurling indescrepencies altering pressures somewhat eliminating 100% success- jmho

[fishhawk]

Richard, I don't remember exactly what you did, but I remember you making some modifications to your sled. May be it compensates for this. Anyway I posted somewhere a while back that my son was shooting his T/C Omega off the sled and was disappointed with his groups. I watched him for a few shots and noticed he didn't get the gun seated in the rear rest of the sled consistently because of the sling swivel and stud. So I told him to just shoot off the bags like he does with his lower recoil guns. His groups improved dramatically. I had noticed also that the forearm would respond in inconsistent directions to the front rest of the sled. Could a lead sled impede the guns recoil differently each shot? I think the ability of the gun to slide straight rearward consistently when seated in shooting bags could make a difference. We all know how much grip pressure and placing can affect poi. Secondly Our very poor bc's fed into a calculator show scary results from the slightest wind even at 100 yds. Could easily be the difference between 1/2 and 1 moa from a breeze we didn't detect especially if that breeze was a few yards downwind. Most can't afford or endure multiple recoils from the 325 Parker, but maybe the rich and brave could show this. Just speculative daydreaming.

[Richard]

Fishawk.................Here is the skinny on my sled. It is the DFT or at least it started out that way ;D I have totally removed the horizontal adjustment and screwed the top in a permanent position to eliminate movement. The main pedestal screw has been bushed above and below the rest to eliminate wobble. Then the rear leg has been bushed both top and bottom to eliminate wobble there. The rest sits on a board with aluminum "slide plates" for the two front rubber feet and the rear leg modified and fits into a guide channel. My rifle has a wooden fitted piece on the forend which makes it 3" wide and flat as in BENCHREST type. I have removed the sleds plastic bag and put in a 3" wide benchrest front bag to fit the forend. I even put some grease on the bottom of the rubber feet so the whole sled and gun recoil directly rearward just like my heavy bench rifle. I use a leather 16 lb bag on the sled. The who set up is extremely stable. After each shot I just lay the rifle back in the sled and push it (the sled and gun) forward to a stop I have devised. When I look thru the scope, the crosshairs are just about on the target where I left it. I have left about 1/4" of horizontal travel on the channel for the rear leg to adjust for windage. This is about the closest thing to a "return to batter" benchrest rifle as you can get. My rifle weights 13 3/4 lbs. I use no grip on the forend.........just the thumb hole grip with a 1 3/4 lb. Rifle Basix trigger. And yes, after shooting many thousand custom benchrest bullets, I know the short comings of what we have available.
I guess what I am getting at is this: I have heard on a number of occasions, people expounding that on any good day, their gun can shoot five shots in under 1/2" at 100 yards and 1" at 200 yards This being with a Savage Pac-Nor .45...........Not a Swinglock or some other custom ML with a chamber and shooting one particular custom/fitted bullet with one specific charge. Just a Savage. And then not even showing a picture of "one" of these groups to boot!!! With all the shooting that Herman and myself do, probably 10 times more than most shooters do, we have not achieved this level of accuracy. So I would like to know how these shooters are able to do this "on a regular basis?" I can see it happening very occasionally but on a regular basis, even with perfect weather conditions?? It "ain't gonna happen!"
I don't think even Edge with his custom CNC made PVC sabots and real rifle bullets, could profess to being able to shoot 1/2" groups all the time in the 100 yd. TUNNEL he shoots in. And I know those bullet sabots shoot excellent as I have shot them!
Richard

dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=gear&action=display&thread=2257

[herman]

Richard I wasn't thinking tuesday but I had forgotten about your operation on your shoulder.If i hadn't forgotten you could have used bills lead sled for what you shot.
I sure don't want you to have another operation on it.
I have been useing bills since you had your opoeration and I really think it has saved my shoulder.I'll be 70 my birthday so I know my bones aren't like they was when I was younger.
And I know you and bill aren't far behind. ;D

[jeremylong]

Looks like somebody is a little grumpy after a bad day at the range... :-)

No help here. 5 shot group less than .5moa consistently will require my centerfire.

[Savage Shooter]

Feb 9, 2011 21:06:37 GMT -5 jeremylong said:

Looks like somebody is a little grumpy after a bad day at the range... :-)

No help here. 5 shot group less than .5moa consistently will require my centerfire.

kinda my thoughts too......still are muzzleloaders aint they

[Deleted]

I know some of you guys think Im full of crap and I dont post many targets but with 60 grns 4198 and a 200 sst/ light blue-harv my gun is 1/2 moa 75% of the time. maybe I just got lucky. the last group I posted was . 400 for five shots and thats not uncommon with my rig. again maybe I got a great barrel and somehow it fell together just right but I sure like it. i am gathering stuff for a 700 ml build now and I seriously doubt it will shoot as well.

one thing for sure Richard, everybody looks forward to your weekly reports and the lessons learned. as for 1/2" groups, when I rescope my gun whatever group it shoots on the next session I will post it as is but so far it shoots a ragged hole with this combo. when I shoot a 15/55 duplex of n110/120 it opens up to around 3/4 moa but its pushing 3000 fps and is a real killer....Bill

[herman]

WoW!
If I measured and recorded every group I have shot with the 50 and 45 caliber savages,I could probly say my rifles is about a 50 MOA rifle.Thats just a guess probably be more than that.
I get some pretty good groups sometimes at 100.200 and even 300 yds but it still don't change the fact that it is still a 50 MOA or more rifle. ;D

[edge]

I certainly am not a good enough to shooter to shoot 1/2 moa groups with any rifle day in and day out, but that is due to my own abilities as a shooter.

I sometimes get better groups than that but probably due to screwing up at the right time and not me making good shots ;D

edge.

[jims]

Herman: Is that 50 MOA or is there a decimal in front of the number? I have seen your groups and they are pretty solid in my view.

[Richard]

Look, I'm not saying that once in a while you get a little lucky and might shoot a 1/2" five shot group But to say your rifle (again, I talking a Savage Pac-Nor) on any good day can put five shots under 1/2" is unrealistic or in other words...........Pure Horse Hockey ;D When you buy a custom hunting rifle from any of the accuracy gunsmiths, they will often advertise that their rifles will will shot 3 shot 1/2 moa. We are now talking custom barrel, custom or blue printed action trigger work.........basically, all the bells and whistles and price tags from $2,000 +. A rifle that has a wide range of really GOOD bullets. I therefore conclude that a muzzle loader shooting pistol bullets just can not compete. A new shooter coming on our board reading a statement like that would think that all he has to do is put a Pac-Nor on and WOW--- 1/2" groups
I'm not bragging, but my rifle has about all the bells and whistles you can get on a Savage ML. I consider my rest top shelf. I shoot 30 to 40 shots EVERY week with Herman and Bill (and you can't fool those guys as they are always peering thru their spotting scope if I tell them I got a good group going). I have been shooting benchrest both short and long range for 20 years and done pretty well, so I do know how to pull a trigger and no way can I claim to do 1/2" day in and day out. One inch to inch and a half?? Yes!
I have just been around long enough to know the senario:A person gets lucky and shoots one good group? The next thing you know he has a 1/2" rifle ...........A bill fold group! I shot a 1.564" five shot IBS record light gun group at 1,000 yards...........ONE TIME! But never got closer to it than 4 shots in 2" with the fifth making it 5". Most all my groups were in the 5" to 8" range. Yes, I did get lucky but I would never claim my gun shoots 1 1/2" groups on any good day
I like to keep what I put on this forum "real world!" No BS and would hope other do the same. Shoot a good group? Post a picture of it and I will be the first to congratulate you!
If I have stepped on any toes with this post? Oh well, I call it like I see it
Richard

[herman]

Thats a 50 no decimal--50.00
Heck sometimes I even miss the whole target board.

[deadon]

This thread is getting it said and is good for me. Everything Richard says is true. I spent 3100.00 including scope for a custom 6.5 X 284 and It would shoot 1/4 inch groups at a hundred yrds , 1 1/4" groups at 400 yrds BUT not everyday. My pacnor shoots 1/2" groups with 2 different loads but not everyday. It will shoot 1 1/2 in groups everyday. I hope getting it bedded and the 3rd pillar will close that up some. It is soooooooo frustrating to work so hard at something and never achieve the "unachievable". I always shoot from a rest,either across the rail of a stand or with my shooting sticks and have only missed one deer in 12 yrs with my rifles. for that I am thankful. I would love to be able to post pics every week showing how well my rifles shoot but every week it is always different. I shot 68 times in the last three days. Compared smooth sabot to CR, 200 sst to 195 gr barnes and have not come to any definite conclusions. I can kill deer with numerous loads and maybe I will have to learn to be happy with that. Sometimes though, it is still fun to reach for the unachievable Rusty

[edge]

OK Richard, I have a question for you.

What would you shoot with that rifle if you had a 1,000 yard tunnel or warehouse that gave you perfect conditions everyday?

IMO, we just don't have sabots that are good enough to ensure perfect in-bore conditions on every shot.

I also think that sabotless offers the best chance for great groups but that still depends on bullet prep and that is the weak link...IMO.

edge.

[deadeye]

richard,i have a challenge for you- clean your bore,drill your plug of carbon,use a new sav vent approx .031 in your recessed plug, your load w/h4198 usually somewhere between 53.0-56.0 w/275be knurled to approx .4505 w/a wool unlubed wad ,shoot dirty w/ a medium friction fit,shoot 2 shots if good go 3(if not readjust the powder charge & start over 2 shot groups,if good go, 4 & 5 take notes & do not shoot any other loads until finished with this project. post your results when you find the load/// i will give you my 2 pacs #1-55.5gn -h4198,likes 8 shots before its in the groove,shoots@100 .5-.7 day-in day out,needs bore clean approx after 30(just a carb patch both sides,i brush> then 1 wet &1 dry,fire primer put your 8 count in & lock in for some great groups. ////pac #2 all the same except it likes 54.5gns h4198 & only needs 4 to settle in. its shoots usually .4-.6 very very regularly & is a tupperware to boot.both shoot @ 2420fps@60degrees,both never have had a group over .8@100 or above 1.8@204yds when everthing is consistent meaning if you mis-knurl one & its obvious discard that shot,after a short while you wont have many of these. both have just the standard recoil lugs!! ;D /// *** awhile back someone mentioned having a contest,i instead thought it might be a better idea to have a 100,200,300,400,500 threads,shooters could take say every week a 5 shot & post it to the thread that they get a chance to add to,not everybody's retired & has other activities such as hunting etc, but the purpose for many to view very accurate loads that people post week in week out might be beneficial to help many in their load developement - imo, instead of doubting anyone & i beleive there are many good-great shooters here on this board. now on the 325be followers i have only shot 2- 3shot groups @ 100,1 was approx .365 ctc & the other approx .5-.6& 1-2 shot@ 204yds approx .5 if my memory is correct,but 5 shot groups is not my goal as this is not going to the 1,000yd bench with me,instead my 50bmg.

[Savage Shooter]

Feb 10, 2011 14:32:25 GMT -5 Richard said:

I have been shooting benchrest both short and long range for 20 years and done pretty well, so I do know how to pull a trigger and no way can I claim to do 1/2" day in and day out. One inch to inch and a half?? Yes!

Richard

And yet you expect it from a muzzleloader. I aint got no half moa guns when I shoot them.

Got one that will with the right shooter behind it, just not for me.

It seems like the better a gun shoots the better I want it to shoot. I have learned to be satisfied with the gun when it shoots better than me.

[Richard]

Deadeye.........so you admit that you are only shooting 3 shot groups? I re-read you post and never saw what bullet you were using? Maybe I need to got to the high dollar Parkers??? Sorry, can't afford to shoot as much as I do with Parkers.
Edge.......That would be nice to have a 1,000 yard tunnel ;D I would think that that particular barrel could have done 3 to 4". There again, getting each case identically prepped for capacity and neck tension still leaves human error. Even with the custom bullets I shot, there is always the possibility of getting a bad one? Then there is the "aiming" thing! Just be off the exact center of the bull and you have a bigger group. About the only way to really eliminate most all human error is with a :Return to battery" gun with an electronic trigger shot in a tunnel or chicken coop. (Yup, there is an indoor 100 yard range in a chicken coop about a hundred miles from me!).
What you say about the sabotless thing is very true. I have tried and tried and invariably one of five shots will load either looser or thighter than the rest. Don't know if its spring back or what? I run them thru the same die and very often I run them twice just to make sure.
Of course, I could go to the 50 yard range and shoot 1/2" all day and post them them as 100 and swear Herman to secrecy ;D but thats not my style. When you shoot in competition, there is NO BS. You don't even see the target until it comes out of the scoring shed. The information is public and posted on the IBS web site. Just like ATA trap shooting. The results of every registerd match gets put in an annual book and anyone across the country can see what scores you are shooting.
Richard

[deadeye]

richard- i usually do shoot many 2 & 3 shot groups for my conversion to go long,having said that i have shot 5shot gr's & 8 shot gr's , i also shoot overlaying groups-example-shoot 3shot groups when barrel is in groove,put up come out next day to repeat on same target with nothing changed/power/parralax/cleaning etc. i have also shoot 1 shot overlaying groups for 7 consecutive days to monitor how its going to do or what to expect during the hunts/imo-these are just some of the test i confirm before doing that "unethical" long range thing ;D. i think if you take a look at my 325be thread you see many examples of test @ different distance's to truly get to know the load & i push it much farther looking for deterioration of a particular load. i dont need 5 to see a breakdown & if someting is amiss well its right there to see & i will say w/275be & this 325be they are awesome performers as i have had only 1 unexplained flyer w/275be which was @ 450yds-i think the wind got me which i was aware of. now on the cost i say c'mmon man? just quantity 100 of 275be's for a little satisfaction? so its very apparent to me you are doing a very different test just not trying to buckle down to a possible very accurate load in which i read you try to seek in the .5 area w/mz& you are not going to find that w/plastic sabots imo/ i too lay it out as it happens & what happens is recorded & relayed. the people around me know this but none are members here that im aware of. t-morrow if possible i'm going to try to get out in the evening w/the new load improved 325be for a 3shot somewhere in the 500yd range & 650yd & if good just maybe 750yd,just wanted to let you know in advance as i dont shoot 3 good ones & freeze-up or scared to shoot 2 more,its either working or its a failed mission like my last reporting of 325be@650yds all called @ the x in good conditions. i will be on my way now,good luck!

[edge]

Richard, when you use your best load combo can you normally/ often tell when a bullet/ sabot will be a flyer by feel?

If the answer is yes then perhaps a "spare" target would be in order and used for your "called flyers".

It would be interesting to see how if loads that did not feel right turned out to be good shots when fired.

edge.

[bigmoose]

All you folks posting here are in a different league than me, nevertheless here is my 1 cent.

A Barnes 290gr TMZ flat based bullet sized to you Pac-Nor ,45, with 53grs of H4198 and a wonder wad, is a superbly accurate load,

I have shoot a number of one hole groups with it, Its my dime killer.

Now if and old broken down man can do that, what could a pro shooter like Richard do with it
I have no target info past a 100 yards, and yes I'm talking about 3 shot groups, I did get greedy, after shooting a three shot one holer, I went for 5 the 4th shot, still a one holer, but the 5th open the group up to one inch.
PS, I never shot a one holer with any centerfire rifle, had some that were super shooter, and I was an excellent marksmen as a young man, but no one holers.

[tar12]

Marty if you cant hit that dime with all 5 shots you will never be able to kill a Moose with that pea shooter... ;D

[bigmoose]

Tar,
When I first did it, I was talking to the gent in Alaska, that owns the camp I hunt at, After I got finished with my story, he said if I was going to carry the bench and all the equipment across the Tunda, that would impress him, he said he seems to remember I need shooting sticks,now if I could do it offhand, he would also be impress, Did I plan to shoot Moose and Brownies only in the eye, He also said if I know any other jokes, call him, in the mean time keep uses your sticks........My kind of guy, thats what I would said if some clown called me about hitting a tiny target....so what. maybe the reason I no longer shoot Deer { I still hunt them with an unloaded rifle] is I can only hit a target as big as a Moose.

[Richard]

Edge..........its pretty hard to tell particularly with saboted loads since they all seem to go down pretty evenly. But with sabot less loads you can generally tell? Although they have tricked me too! I have had a shot load very easy after a hard one and it surprises me and gives a similar velocity? But most of the time a real "hang on the ram rod" bullet will invariably produce a higher velocity and be somewhat out of the group. I see what you are saying about having an additional target to shoot odd shots at..........but that gets to be a pain in the butt also. Suppose to get to your hunting location and go to load up your gun and you get what you think is a "hard?" or "loose?" fit? What do you do? Shoot it and scare all the deer away ;D? or just go with it and figure it will shoot "deer good" anyway. With as good as the PN shoots, even my shots out of the group will kill a deer with no problem.
Deadeye............The suffix after your bullet weight..........."B e" What does that stand for? It is some type of Barnes expander?
About the only thing I shoot saboted is the XTP, SST and 195 Barnes MZ. Sabot less is mainly the Hornady SST or XTP in various weights. These are all bullets that are generally within the budget of most blue collar shooters. If there was some type of formal registered ML competition that I was going to compete in, I would definitely have to consider some other high dollar bullet. I personally feel the lack of "ONE" hole consistent groups lies in the construction of factory pistol bullets. I am sure jacket wall thickness is not held to the tolerances that competition type bullets are. The care taken by custom bullet makers is just not possible with factory fodder.
If what you are saying is true, I apologize. I just see so much BS from non competitive shooters who get lucky and shoot one good group and start bragging about their "one hole" rifle. My response is: "If you are that good? Come to a match and SHOW ME!"
Richard

[tar12]

Who has the "one hole" muzzy on here?

[deadeye]

richard-first of all this is a discussion-no beef & never has been on my side,however im very dedicated to load developing/shooting etc. i no what you are saying about a lot of bull out there but i have put in a lot of quiet time searching for what you are & so far i have offered you a start(direction to approx .5moa) which came from this board-not my innovation, when i came to this board in search of greater expectations & after searching for weeks & months of loads results etc- there was this guy i believe from lawrenceville ga that had some awesome groups & long range results etc & pm'd him to where i thought i might be a pest but he was on to something i was looking for,he was very nice & answered my questions,his handle is "harley". i have somewhat duplicated(275be) his findings & find myself now challenging the 325be which is bob parkers new bullet "ballistic extreme" they do cost more & for some(i'm not rich)its really not a feasible taking. but this is the only bullet(parker) in my finding's that is close to .5 groups etc out of a sav/pac-// i totally believe it can be equaled without spending the money for a badbull or etc@ 400yds or less. its just gonna take the right load tweaking with the right bullet/consistency etc. having said that we are very close to the .5 results day-in -day-out, of course there is a flyer once in a while that puts you out @ .5 but you cannot deny the consistency results so far achievedby many//well im humor natured also & have not tried "big moose's" 290tmz/53.0 load, but instead he sent me his "buster bullets" we are all on the same side of the fence!

[wilmsmeyer]

I have a challenge for you as well Richard. I think Deadeye is the one who said he does it, and I do it too when I think I am onto something. I am more about the 1st shot being spot on then printing groups with a rifle that is constantly changing. Many times I have experience at the range with my .50 that shows greatness and then a shot out of the group.

For the next 5 weeks, take your best load. Or even better yet....for the next 5 weeks with good wind (hardly any) shoot your very first shot at a target....and put the target away. I'm sure that your most consistent barrel, plug condition is the 1st shot. Accumulate "1st" shots on this one target until you have 5.

You may not get 1/2"...but I wonder if you will get a very nice sub MOA group with no shot that opens your group up to 1 1/2" I also wonder if you'll find that the group will be shaded slightly to one area in relationship to anticipated POI.

Just a thought.

[wilmsmeyer]

One other train of thought in looking for the best possible chance for consistent accuracy with an ML:

RB told me a long time ago....and then again a few months before he passed....that we shoot bullets to light-for-bore-size to expect great accuracy all the time.

When I started toying with the .458 325 gr FTX's, I began to see a trend that I have not seen before...and that is consistency to a higher degree. I conversed with RB about it....more so for looking for the right powder to keep me at the speed I wanted....and he told me "I've been saying this for 8 years and nobody listens". I wonder if the guys shooting .45 and using 275 and even 325 are seeing good results due to the bullet weight/bore size relationship.

NOW...I know that all this leads to recoil levels not wanted by most...hence the lighter bullet route. BUT...the size of these barrels may be dictating what they want to eat.

So another challenge for you Richard is to try using some heavier bullets. Maybe those Parkers have what is needed?

I would ask...as a bench rest shooter....how you feel a bullet designed for consistent accuracy retained down range..like a 140 6.5mm bullet would compare to a mass produced 85 gr blunt 6.5mm bullet? I chose that weight because the percentage difference between a 200 .40 bullet and a 325 gr .40 bullet is about the same percentage difference as 85 or 140 gr 6.5 mm bullet.+/-.

In other words I think you are looking to reach a level of sharpness and retained sharpness of a quality Cutco knife by using a belt grinder to sharpen a butter knife out of the kitchen drawer. That's extreme...but you get my point.

What are your thoughts on that? Or anyone elses?

[bigmoose]

Ricard,
I accept your challenge.
However due to old age and health problems, I will require a number of handicaps, being a fair minded gent, I know you will understand and agree.
One: You can use your favorite Muzzleloader and load, you can use any of the following shooting positions, offhand, sitting, kneeing, or prone.
your target will be set at 317 yards from your shooting position.
I will be shooting from a bench rest at 26 yards,, however to make this even fairer, I will use a flat nose bullet.
As a small side wager, the loser will pay the winner the sum of $1.38, no later than 2037.
I await your agreement to these very fair terms.
Bigmoose......what a silly name.
Marty

[bigmoose]

Wilmsmeyer,
very interesting post, unlike many posters, I have found, the first shot from a cold barrel, [one primer poped] is either the best or one of the best of the group.
This will be my 10th year, shooting the Savage, so I have sent lots of bullets down range.
I'm not sure if that last statement means anything.
Have a fine day,
Marty