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Post by bigmoose on Feb 12, 2011 8:46:41 GMT -5
deadeye,
If you would like to try the 290 TMZ, send me your address again, you will have to resize them as soon as I get them I resize them for my rifle.
PS, Shooting the Buster bullets are more fun.
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Feb 12, 2011 9:05:31 GMT -5
Richard... I read wilmsmeyers last post about 5 weeks of shooting the first shot then recording that shot. I could never do that myself because of lack of self control...I wanna shoot it over and over ITS FUN! ;D. But how about what Wilms said...BUT.... would you take the 5 targets..All being the same size and from the same package... shoot the 1 first shot...pull it and then after you have done all 5 Assemple the targets line them up perfectly corner to corner and see where the holes go together? This would be an interesting thing to keep watch on.... This spring If I can get some time I would like to try this also with my gun's. If it works well it would be a REAL confidence builder for the average hunter like myself. Thanks Drop
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Post by deadeye on Feb 12, 2011 12:04:02 GMT -5
wilm's, you are a talented individual & i could never had put that in writing even if it took me 50yrs! ;D// i did take a somewhat look at the 325 ftx but it just was not in my timing schedule. i would have loved to spend a month w/rb picking his brain & try to digest his findings etc, but the great people of this board have stored some of his findings & are very anxious to help others when in need,im grateful for that. this is the only board i partisipate in except the fcsa for that reason.
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Post by Richard on Feb 12, 2011 19:44:45 GMT -5
Bigmoose...............I will readily admit that unless I shoot supported in some way or the other, my accuracy would be Do-Do! All my long range big game shots were taken off some form of a rest............Mainly my back pack from the prone position. My long range pistol kills on mule deer and antelope out to 220 yards were taken with a 6" Harris bi-pod and "corn cob" media bag under the butt from a prone position. Some people are more adept at the other positions...........NOT me ;D (It's a benchrest thing) Wilms...............I like your analogy but it is flawed: You are now talking about the bullet and caliber I used for my 1,000 yard shooting. It is not necessarily the upper weight range of the 6.5mm bullet that causes the accuracy to remain at 1,000 yards, but more the BC that follows along with the weight..........which encompasses the "sleek" bullet design. (.625 BC) Very long secant ojive nose..........very small meplat and very tapered boat tail. Characteristics we do NOT have in a ML bullet. As far as the first shot thing? If you look back at all my targets, you will find that the first shot is not always the best shot out of five? If I was a guy who had a range outside his door, I would leave my gun uncleaned and every morning go out and fire one shot for that "first shot out of a cold barrel" But every time I go to the range each week, the conditions might be different? As a hunter, which I am not doing much of lately , I would be more concerned with the size of the group my rifle could shoot any time. So if I have a load that I know, even with a "flyer", will keep five shot in 1.5", then that is good enough for a head shot. On the other hand, as a target shooter, I am interested one ragged hole five shot groups. Deadeye might be onto something with these Parker bullets and maybe I will just have to blow some cash and get some to try. I only had one occasion where a members sent me some Parkers to size for him and graciously gave me five. Of course five is not nearly enough to try with various loads and the load I shot them with did not want to make me buy any more Here again, you don't need a one holer to kill deer. But you do for personal satisfaction ;D Right now, with the factory bullets readily affordable, I have not yet achieved that goal..........Maybe with a supply of Edge's PVC sabots it is possible Richard
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Post by Jon on Feb 12, 2011 20:19:09 GMT -5
Richard if you are seriously interested let me know I will drop ship you as many bullets of your choice as you would need to do your testing. I think the new 325 has potential but it is like everything else going to take a lot of experimenting. From the pressure traces I've seen It has a lot of potential. This would be a good one to get Loyd in on. If he is interested? Jon
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Post by jims on Feb 12, 2011 22:50:29 GMT -5
Jon: You have assisted in various ways to help us all. Thanks
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Feb 13, 2011 8:16:25 GMT -5
Richard,
And the weights of your 6.5 mm bullets with a great BC are what? I think my idea on that isn't flawed at all...nor was RB's.
My point on shooting the 1st shot thing has flaws....but it can also be interesting and revealing as it has been for me.
I realize my thoughts come from a hunting mindset and yours from a targeting, bug hole addiction and that is just hunky dory.
Another thing I would try is slowing things down a little...even is just a few hundred fps. Still plenty flat for 200 yd work.
In General, as long as we are using a sabot, I think the 1/2" group will be extremely hard to repeat..repeat...repeat
What may be a breakthrough for the .45ers would be a sabot made for a true .41 cal bullet as I am certain that little extra bullet diameter (.458 over .451) makes a huge difference in the .50. But in the same breath....the 45er's seem to do as good or better then the 50 guys with what they already have. Now if we had a few dozen Pac-nor 50's in the circle, maybe we could get apples to apples.
Another avenue for you would be to fine tune your sabotless quest. Seems like you moved away from that somewhere along the line....or at least haven't continued the tweaking.
Believe me...I'd love to see you and many more guys get to where you want to be. I just don't think it will be using a light-for-caliber (LOW BC) pistol bullet in a sabot....both of which are not a recipe in any serious 1/2 moa gun of any kind.....especially past 100 yds.
IMO...IMO
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Post by Richard on Feb 13, 2011 13:22:27 GMT -5
Wilms...........when I put together that 1.564" five shot group at 1,000 yards, I was using a custom 147 gr. VLD being made by a friend in Tenn. "Clinch River Bullets". But don't forget, Those shooting these bullets had a barrel twist specifically designed for this weight range. Mine was a 8.5" Krieger. With the ML we are more or less shooting a generic twist that seems to do "well" with most weights. If one was to alway shoot the heavier 300+ bullets a twist rate of maybe 16 to 18" might do better. Conversely, a 28 twist might be the ticket for the 200 gr. bullets? Richard
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trb0
8 Pointer
Posts: 211
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Post by trb0 on Feb 13, 2011 14:11:46 GMT -5
Richard, I have not read every post but enough to think that you have already answered your own question correctly. It seems as we both have shot enough benchrest and muzzleloaders to realize this. How often have you shot groups in the upper ones and very low twos with a benchrest 6PPC(in my case) only to have a group or two go in the threes or fours for no apparent reasons.I have shot many half inch groups with my .50 savage but have learned not to sweat it when it shoots 1 1/2 inches the next group. I think many of the posters have good answers that all apply to your question. Heavy recoil,temperature effects on sabots,limited custom bullets and one of my biggest theories is the fact that you have to remove the gun from the rest to reload and disrupt everything. Thanks for all your work on the pressure traces and I may contact you in the next few weeks when I get my Remington Pacnor put together and start working on a load. Thanks Tim Baldwin
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Feb 13, 2011 15:50:48 GMT -5
All the twist options and bullets are available to you Richard.
33 shots a week X 52 weeks = 1716 shots. At 50 cents a shot (cheap) that's $854 you could spend this year on a barrel of your twist preference and a few $100 on good bullets.
You might just reach your dream! I'm pulling for you!
A 147 gr bullet in .264 dia would be WAY heavier then a 325 gr bullet in a 45 or 50...proportionally...and sleeker. Even the best ML bullets aren't that good. In .50 cal, A .50 BMG using a 750 gr Amax would be closer. And yes....the twist rate becomes very crucial.
As I said before, rarely do we see pistol bullets with low BC's shoot 1/2 moa at 100 yds or 200-300 yds.....all day long. The SST's and Barnes are 1 step better then an XTP but FAR short of your 147 6.5mm bullet. They actually do better then expected for many of us IMO.
In these ML's it seems important to step up in weight for consistency...and at some point a faster twist would be in order for sure.
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Post by artjr338wm on Feb 13, 2011 19:53:12 GMT -5
Mr. Baldwin, summed it up as well if not better than I could have by echoing my exact thoughts when it comes to not just the over all accuracy of the 10ML-II (regardless of caliber or barrel make) but of all muzzleloders for that matter.
I do not have at this moment a exact count of how many of my 3 shot 100 and 200 yard groups are in the class of 1-MOA to 1.5-MOA, but it is IMHO the vast majority. So like Mr. Baldwin when I shoot a nice 2-2.5" 200yrd 3-shot group and my very next 200 yard group almost doubles in size to 3-3.5" I do not allow it to bother me in the least what so ever.
I know with 100% confidence, that the worst groups produced by my five most accurate hunting loads are still well with in minuet-of-deer accuracy so I gain nothing by allowing the rare, odd larger than normal group to "freak me out" so to speak.
Bottom line in my opinion based on over 2500 shots taken with my Encore and my 10ML-II, and the 5000 combined shots I've taken with all my CF rifles, is no matter how advanced muzzleloaders become, the bottom line is they are still after all, muzzleloaders, and not center fire rifles, and although I will stop short of saying it is impossible to do so, achieving the same level of shot to shot consistent accuracy that can be done with a center fire rifle with a muzzleloader again IMHO, is so close to impossible, I personally feel it is not worth beating myself up trying to achieve it. If others are willing to, I wish them as much luck as can be had.
I can see it being a obtainable goal for a acomplished bench rest shooter with the time nessasary to shoot, but for a shooter such as myself who has limited time and my range is 90 miles from my home, I have no choice but to set realistic goals for myself.
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Post by Richard on Feb 13, 2011 21:02:59 GMT -5
Wilms...........Your probably right but I'll probably still keep on searching for a good load for the barrel I have. I will definitely look into the Parkers. I am going to try some slower velocity 300 FTX's on Tuesday. Richard
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Post by bigmoose on Feb 13, 2011 21:48:44 GMT -5
Richard,
I too ordered the 325 FTZ, from MidSouth, as soon as I get them I'll run my penetration test [got the block made up and ready], I'll use Wilms load 70gr. H4198, however, in the past when I tried that load with 300gr. Barnes X bullet, it blow the sabots, and when I used the same load with the Barnes 350gr X bullet, Rick said to drop back to 68grs, that still blow the sabots, I ended up using 66grs with the 350, Maybe I can use Benchmark to push it at speed, hopefully Edge can use the formula, if 71grs is good with the 400gr Buster, maybe 75-77 would be good with a 325gr bullet, however before shooting I'll wait to get the figures, too old to be a hero. Marty
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Post by deadeye on Feb 13, 2011 22:46:27 GMT -5
bigmoose-i'll just use wilm's 70g h4198 w/325ftx- fact-check-is that .50saboted? ???or .45 sabotless
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Post by bigmoose on Feb 13, 2011 23:18:27 GMT -5
50 sabot........I think if you use 70gr of H4198 in your .45, you will only do it once.
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Post by deadeye on Feb 14, 2011 8:16:06 GMT -5
Wilms...........when I put together that 1.564" five shot group at 1,000 yards, I was using a custom 147 gr. VLD being made by a friend in Tenn. "Clinch River Bullets". But don't forget, Those shooting these bullets had a barrel twist specifically designed for this weight range. Mine was a 8.5" Krieger. With the ML we are more or less shooting a generic twist that seems to do "well" with most weights. If one was to alway shoot the heavier 300+ bullets a twist rate of maybe 16 to 18" might do better. Conversely, a 28 twist might be the ticket for the 200 gr. bullets? Richard per bore size in this case-is the 147gn not on the upper end of bullet weights per caliber*** one more note as i have gone through 300gn xtp's show very much promise "sabotless" for one to try & possibly nail down a approx .5 shooter @ 100yds without biting the wallet so much & the .452's resize through the .448 die very easily,really a joy to work with imo
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Feb 14, 2011 12:17:17 GMT -5
Yes 50 cal...thank you moose....I have to be more careful!
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